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Post subject: == Turgut Reis (LMS) - under review ==
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It's extremely difficult to find plans for Ottoman Turkish ships, so this one is pretty special.
Turgut Reis
Cost: $2.2M
Available: Sep. 1910
| Code: | Pre-dreadnought
10,500 tons
116 m
14 knots
Armament: 4 × 28 cm (11 in) / 40 caliber guns
2 × 28 cm (11 in) / 35 caliber guns
8 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) guns
8 × 8.8 cm (3.5 in) guns
3 × 45 cm (18 in) torpedo tubes
Armour: Belt 12–16 inches
turrets 9 inches (230 mm)
deck 3 inches (76 mm)
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Notice the second 11in turret. This ship will have different broadsides. It's a very old and very slow German pre-dreadnought (SMS Weißenburg). Battle reports from the Battle of Elli and Battle of Lemnos (1912-13) characterised this ship and her sisters as incredibly inaccurate in terms of gunnery.
And the Ottoman Naval Ensign for making the card. It's at the correct size (87x52 pixels) and resolution (300 pixels/inch).
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Last edited by NeuralDream on Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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 Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:38 pm |
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So your saying the center mounted turret can only bear starboard ? Interesting.
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| Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:14 am |
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Illuminated Insanity
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I have noticed as well it is quite difficult to find anything about the Turks.
Blueprints or photos, even history.
I can find some good lists, but other than that...  
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| Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:23 am |
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For this and her sisters, we have even found the prices the Turks paid to the Germans from two different sources. I found a price of 9 million marks and swarbs found a price of 450,000 pounds, which is the same. Pretty impressive coincidence that we also found its blueprint. Very rare.
and here's the naval ensign of the Ottomans in 1912
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| Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:07 am |
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I may be wrong about this ship and its broadsides. It seems that the short 11inch could fire just fine in both broadsides, but not at all aft or fore. I imagine it would have considerably worse accuracy and range than the other two turrets.
See here: http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/pre-dreadnought/sms-brandenburg.html
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| Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:58 pm |
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That's probably why the shorter length of the guns in the center mount, for turret traverse purposes.
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| Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:32 pm |
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Has nothing to say.
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If someone can come up with stats for this ship, I will make its card today.
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| Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:14 pm |
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Even if someone prepares the stats, they must first be approved by Lothar to make the card. Btw, I've prepared this sticky, where we can list the approved corrections to existing cards. Whenever you make a card you can remove it from there, or write something like "done".
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| Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:25 pm |
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Question ND before I do this Turkish vessel, are you sure the belt armor is 12" to 16" ? That's some thick stuff for an old Pre-Dreadnought, course she only moves at speed one, maybe that's why she's so slow, too heavy.
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| Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:06 pm |
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| Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:47 pm |
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Conway's shows 12-16" belt, 12" barbetts, and 5" gun house, so yeah, that number's right.
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| Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:32 pm |
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That would merit a 9 armor value, does anyone know when she was actually built ? I am assuming she did some time with the German navy first, What I'm trying to get at is, Bad Pre-Dreadnought armors value is a 6, average armor a 7, good armor a 8, but this is a 9. My impulse is to downgrade her armor to a 8 because of her age and I would imagine a maintenence problem due to being a foriegn ship in a different land (Hard to imagine getting good German Machinery tools here). Does anyone know if this was Krupp face hardened steel armor plating or not ?
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| Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:01 pm |
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I know that she was a terrible mess by 1912 when it faced the brand-new Averoff, and that the latter scared her away very easily. However, I agree that her armour seems monstrous and her guns were in theory better than the averoff, so I don't understand what was wrong with her and performed so poorly. All books describe the Averoff as completely dominant against her, but hard numbers seem to disagree. Is it possible that the old 11/40 or 11/35 that she had were worse than the new 9.2? Same question about the armour, because I've also read that Averoff was better armoured, which I find hilarious if we look at the numbers.
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Last edited by NeuralDream on Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:40 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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| Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:22 pm |
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I am going to flash my developer's badge here and put her at an 8 armor for "poor upkeep", We could later do a German verion of the card, when she was brand spanking new, and give her a 9 there. Sometimes "raw" data can be misleading. My gut instinct is that this is the case here. And believe me, I have a very well developed "gut". 
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| Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:29 pm |
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. The hull will be interesting. 3?
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| Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:31 pm |
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In terms of gunnery, she may get a negative S.A. for her poor gunnery record.
Througout the battle, the Turkish ships achieved an excellent rate of fire, firing about 800 shells, but with dismal accuracy. Only two hits were registered on the Averof, causing one injury and minor damages, while the other battleships escaped unscathed.
The Turkish ships suffered far more. Barbarossa was hit by over 20 shells, which destroyed much of its artillery, and suffered 75 dead and 130 wounded. Turgut Reis suffered a major leak and other minor damages from 17 hits, and 47 casualties. Mesudiye also suffered several hits, but the main damage was caused by a 270 mm shell which destroyed the central 150 mm gun platform, and had 68 casualties.
Looking at the price that the Turks paid for this ship, even armour 8 is a steal! Anyway, let's playtest her and we'll see.
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| Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:35 pm |
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Lets not forget she has a one speed in which Georges Averoff will have a field day with crossing her "T".
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| Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:29 pm |
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Not necessarily, because Averoff doesn't have great broadsides ( especially now that we differentiate between 3-4 and 5-6 guns ). Anyway, let's continue with the design of the game, and if we see oddities we'll fix them later.
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| Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:07 pm |
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If there are oddities such as this, perhaps the fix can be in the SA's. Certainly Georges Averoff could deserve an SA such as Battleship Killer or the like for her perfomance against these same Turks, and like was suggested, perhaps the Turkish ships could be given some type of negative SA to reflect their poor showing, the two in combination could go a long way towards rectifying any outrageous discrepancies with historical accuracy. Like I said before, raw data never tells the whole story, often discipline, motivation and training made up the unseen difference and to me that is where good SA's are involved. Once enough of these cards are ready for playtesting, we'll see what we can come up with.
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| Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:16 pm |
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Beta series Turgut Reis
Turgut Reis 2.2 million dollars
Turkey Battleship/Pre-Dreadnought Sep. 1910
Spd = 1
FOF Bow Broadside Stern
Mains */8/7/5 10/9/8/6 */8/7/5
Sec */3/2/1 6/5/4/2 */3/2/1
AA = 2
TT = 1
Armor = 8 Vital Armor = 11 Hull = 3
EXTENDED RANGE 4
DEFENSIVE ARMAMENT 5
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Last edited by lotharlutjens on Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:35 pm |
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