Soviet 98 point fleet in proper forum

wargamer55 · **wargamer55**

So I tried a little solitaire matchup today to see how my 98-point Soviet Fleet (all I got) might match up against an Axis 100-point fleet. To reduce any possible bias I grabbed a 100-point German build off the ForuMini site.

With small fleet builds I suspect that general purpose builds may be at a disadvantage against all-or-nothing fleets.

In this case the matchup was as follows:

Admiral Hipper (16) U66 x 2 (24) U510 x 2 (22) Graf Zeppelin (18) BF109 (7) Ju-87 (7) Fw 200 Kondor (6) (100) The actual ForuMini build had two Bf109s but I subbed a Ju-87 for a better balanced fleet.

Okt. R. (24) Kirov x 2 (20) Gromkiy x 9 (54) (98)

This seemed right off the bat to be a tough situation for the Germans to me. It seemed liked there was little prospect of challenging the Soviets over objectives and the sub-heavy German fleet was facing a lot of ASW.

And so it proved. A lucky shot from a DD took out the Stuka early, but the Bf 109 did OK strafing DDs, crippling two by game end. The Kondor's glide bomb attack missed the Soviet BB.

The Germans subs were simply overwhelmed by the Soviet DD swarm. The submarines' wolfpack and Kondor pinpointer benefits were no match for all the ASW penalties from the destroyers and most of their torpedo shots were reduced to one die. One DD ended up being sunk by a sub while three f the four U-Boats went down and the fourth was left crippled.

So the Soviets swept up all three objectives and closed in on the Graf Zeppelin and its escort, the Admiral Hipper. The rush by six DDs, the two Kirovs and the battleship was Zulu Dawn-like. The two German ships managed to take out three destroyers and cripple a fourth before going down in a blizzard of torpedoes and shells.

The final score was 223 for the Soviets and 24 for the Germans. One crippled U-boat and two German aircraft survived. Two of the three surviving Soviets DDs were crippled and one of the Kirovs had a hit.

Special abilities used in the battle:
German: Anti-Ship Missile (missed), Pinpointer, Land-based, Wolfpack, Extended Range 4
Soviet: High-speed Run, Slow 2.

I'm going to try one more FuruMini build against the Soviet fleet and see what happens.

From my blog at http://pawnderings.blogspot.com
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War at Sea 64/64
Task Force 60/60
Flank Speed 40/40
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War at Sea 64/64
Task Force 60/60
Flank Speed 40/40
Condition Zebra 0/40
Starter Set 0/8

blog: http://pawnderings.blogspot.com

wargamer55 · **wargamer55**

Reposted here as per a suggestion
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War at Sea 64/64
Task Force 60/60
Flank Speed 40/40
Condition Zebra 0/40
Starter Set 0/8

blog: http://pawnderings.blogspot.com

Duck Crusader · **Duck Crusader**

Hmm. Carriers are largely wasted in 100 point games, you could've left them out. Likewise it's unprofitable to bring so many subs if you already know that there's 9 DDs awaiting them.

I'd suggest;

Scharnhorst 38 points
Admiral Scheer x2 40 points
JU-88 9 points
Kondor x2 12 points

99 points total. Ju-88 and the Kondors should hammer destroyers, then switch over to help finish the heavier ships off near the end. Sharnhorst should go after the Rooskie BB, while the two Scheers do for the cruisers. Secondaries/tertiaries can help thin out the DDs. I predict this will destroy the Rooskie fleet a solid 80% of the time.
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fredmiracle · **fredmiracle**

For kicks I took on the Musashi/2xAkitsuki/2xZeke fleet a few weeks ago with 3 O-R's, a lend-lease Richmond and a Gromky. It was closer than I expected. I had good init and gunnery rolls, although bad slow rolls. Winning init was vital so my O-R's had any chance of a hit on Musashi. Musashi vitaled one BB on her first shot, but then couldn't vital another for several turns. I can't say there was any point where I thought I would win, but it was a good showing, I think Musashi ended up with 4 damage.

Commissar_JPH · **Commissar_JPH**

Fred, next time try the following:

OR x3 (72 pts)
Gromkiy x3 (18 pts)
Kirov x1 (10 pts)

It'll give you 100 points of pure Soviets.
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wargamer55 · **wargamer55**

I ran through another battle using the German fleet build suggested above.

To recap, the Soviet Fleet comprises one Okt. Rev. Battleship, two Kirov cruisers and nine Gromkiy destroyers. This happens to be all the Soviets I have, but it's also happens to be a reasonable build for a 100-point Soviet Standard Scenario fleet.

With only 100 points it's hard to build anything resembling a balanced fleet, but knowing the composition of the Soviet fleet is an advantage. Actually, simply knowing that they are Soviets is a big advantage because the Communists don't have a lot of options. They have no aircraft or subs yet.

So the German fleet comprised one Scharnhosrt, two Adn. Scheer, two Kondors and one JU-88. The commenter suggested that the aircraft would savage the Soviet DDs while the surface units dealt with the larger Soviet ships and objectives.

And so it played out, although it was a stiff fight. The Soviets attempted a control-the-objectives strategy, but the Germans were aggressive to at least deny objective control, if nothing else. As it turned out the air units were very effective at decimating the Soviet DD forces, even with some fortuitous die rolling by the Soviets which aborted an unexpectedly high number of German attackers and poor rolls by the Germans which left some destroyers crippled instead of sunk outright.

Because of this enough Soviet forces survived to get close enough to eventually take out both German pocket battleships, although at the cost of almost all of the rest of their number. The Scharnhorst, on the other hand, was virtually untouchable and ended the battle with just a single hit. A few mines were sown in the late game as last ditch attempts to do something but no mine hits were scored, even has the Scharnhorst deliberately risked one to claim the last objective on the same turn the aircraft finished off the last of the Soviet surface fleet.

The final German score was 298 points (98 for sunk Soviets, 150 for three objectives and 50 for last surviving surface fleet) The Soviets managed just 40 points for the two sunk pocket battleships.
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War at Sea 64/64
Task Force 60/60
Flank Speed 40/40
Condition Zebra 0/40
Starter Set 0/8

blog: http://pawnderings.blogspot.com

wargamer55 · **wargamer55**

So the Soviet fleet and the Scharnhorst/Scheer squadron had a rematch.

This time I had the Soviets concentrate on trying to eliminate Germans ships, on the theory that this was their only hope of avoiding eventual destruction by air units.

This worked somewhat better for the Soviets, although they were still no where close to winning.

The Soviets charged ahead at maximum speed to close on the German fleet as quickly as possible. This time around the air strike luck was pretty normal. There were few aborts and the German bombs generally fell true. Despite that the Soviets were able to grab one objective and sink a Scheer before being wiped out, so the final score was 198 for the Germans (One objective for 50, surviving for 50 and 98 points for sunk Soviets) and the Soviets got 70 (20 for a sunk pocket battleship and 50 for an objective). The third objective was unclaimed.

I am not sure whether this result says that the Soviet fleet is too weak or it just points out that it's always possible to build a fleet that can kill another fleet if you have the luxury of knowing its order of battle beforehand.

The main problems for the Soviets were two-fold.

First, they have no real counter for the German airpower. The Soviet AA can't hope to do more than occasionally abort the German bombers, which means they will eventually lose if the game goes on long enough.

Secondly, the Scharnhorst is a tough nut for the Soviets to crack. If they could get in to torpedo it they might stand a chance, but the German air units will usually kill off enough torpedo armed ships to prevent an effective swarm. The only ship with sufficient gunnery power to get through the Scharnhorst armor of the Okt. Rev., but it can't win a gunnery duel against the German ship.

The mine special ability isn't easy to use in a Standard Scenario Fleet action, although it might be an interesting tool for a convoy raiding fleet.
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War at Sea 64/64
Task Force 60/60
Flank Speed 40/40
Condition Zebra 0/40
Starter Set 0/8

blog: http://pawnderings.blogspot.com

fredmiracle · **fredmiracle**

The Soviets are just too one-dimensional right now.

When designing a generic build without knowledge of my opponent, I usually start by assuming my opponent will bring a strong BB per 100 points. That's probably the most likely thing I will encounter and I should be able to beat it.

For the Soviets against a good BB, there are 2 potentially viable strategies--either a destroyer swarm, or (for lack of a better term) a BB swarm--that is, stock up on as many cheap O-R's as possible (and if you are playing class limits this maxes at 3, so it only works at 100 points).

But either of these is going to be a long shot. Gromky is cheap, but 2/1 torpedoes are not what you want for a DD swarm. 9-point Javelins with 2/2/1 torps and Smoke is much better, as is 11 point Isokaze with 3/3/2/1 LLs. Even if you managed to deploy 14 Gromky's such that 2 were in the same square as an enemy BB and two in each adjacent square, they could still never throw more than 16 torpedoes at the BB in a turn. That is not a recipe for victory.

As far as going battleship-heavy, O-R can really only expect to hit other BBs when you win initiative, and the Russians have no flag bonuses at all.

There certainly are opposing builds the Russian can be more competitive with. A Gromky swarm with an O-R as backup against enemy cruisers should do well against a sub-heavy enemy build. So if your opponent knows you are playing Allies but not Russia, then you have a shot. But against good BBs with good flag bonuses and a few supporting ships/planes, Russia should lose badly every time.

French had a similar fleet in set 1, but Richelieu kept them in the game. O-R really doesn't have that potential...

wargamer55 · **wargamer55**

I tend to agree. I think the Russians can be competitive in a 100-point game IF the Axis player doesn't know which nationality he will face and therefore can't tailor his build against a fighter-less foe.

The Russians and French are handicapped right now because without air units they are too predictable.

I'm rather doubt the O.R. would be useful in a mixed Allied fleet, but the mine capability of the Kirovs and DDs might find a use.

Judging from the builds people proffer, I surmise that few people play 100-point scenarios once they've acquired enough ships as the majority of builds seem to be for 200-point or 300-point fleets. The Soviets can't play at all at that level except as part of an Allied fleet. There's a chance an opponent might not bring aircraft in a 100-point fleet, but anything higher than that is definitely going to have significant air.
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War at Sea 64/64
Task Force 60/60
Flank Speed 40/40
Condition Zebra 0/40
Starter Set 0/8

blog: http://pawnderings.blogspot.com

fredmiracle · **fredmiracle**

Yeah. It might be fun to do a customized 200-point arctic sea type battle: maybe 100 points British and 100 points Russian (and no land airbase) against 170 points German (with land airbase) or something like that...

how about 2 maps end-to-end: Russians on one side, British on the other, Germans in the middle, and 3 50-point objectives in the middle of each map...

[ MAP 1 ][ MAP 2 ]
UK Objs GE Objs USSR

UK could have some carriers and lend air support to Russkies as well as themselves...

wargamer55 · **wargamer55**

wargamer55 · **wargamer55**

Just to demonstrate the advantages of knowing the enemy OB, I solitaired three iterations of the following 100-point British fleet against the German force that beat up on the Soviets.

It comprised the Warspite, three Truculents and three Martlets.

One time the Germans were able to pull out a narrow win by sinking the Warspite while still having the crippled Scharnhorst afloat. The British had awful luck with initiative.

But the other two battles were decisive British wins, with all three German ships going down with no British losses at all (not surprising of course, as the Germans have nothing that can shoot down the Martlets and have a low chance of success in ASW and are vulnerable to being picked off by the Martlets. The Warspite took damage in both battles, but that was it.

Generally the Germans could get two objectives but that was the extent of their scoring.

This does not suggest that the Warspite/Martlet/Truculent build is a good one. It has obvious vulnerabilities, but it has a very good chance of beating that particular German build.
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War at Sea 64/64
Task Force 60/60
Flank Speed 40/40
Condition Zebra 0/40
Starter Set 0/8

blog: http://pawnderings.blogspot.com

Duck Crusader · **Duck Crusader**

Something too many people forget here, you've got no idea what the other guy's building!
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