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Further discussion on tank attack values
 
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NeuralDream

 
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Post subject: Further discussion on tank attack values  Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Gun accuracy is mainly a matter of muzzle velocity. So, I suggest to use this not only for the attack values, but also for the attack ranges. Low-velocity guns would find it very hard to hit their target at long ranges. The following is a list that is based on what I've read and logic but doesn't take into account optics.

(385m/s) + good optics ->  range 8 (PzIVD)
(600m/s) + average optics  range 11 (H-35)
(660m/s) + average optics  range 13 (Somua)
(792m/s) + mediocre optics range 13 (Crusader II)
(850m/s) + good optics -> range 15 (Crusader III)
(920m/s) + average optics -> range 17 (Panhard)
(750m/s) + good optics  -> range 17 (Pz38t)
(762m/s) + good optics  -> range 13 (PzIIIF)
(762m/s) + good optics  -> range 17 (PzIIIH)
(773m/s) + good optics ->  range 24 (Tiger I)
(760m/s) + good optics -> range 24 (IVG)
(1000 m/s) + excellent optics -> range 30 (Tiger II)
M10 Excellent optics  -> range 22
Stug G Excellent optics -> range 24
Sherman 76 Excellent optics -> range 21
Stug B Excellent optics
Sherman 75 Very good optics
Stuart Very good optics -> range 17
Churchill 7 Very good optics -> range 20
Churchill 3 Very good optics -> range 18
Mathilda - Average optics -> range 13?
A13 - Average optics -> range 10?


That's not very scientific as you see, so please let me know what you know about these tanks and their accuracy/optics.
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Last edited by NeuralDream on Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
PostTue Feb 03, 2009 9:12 pm
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Zeus

 

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With ranges like this, you almost don't need any ranges at all - many units will be able to hit an enemy anywhere on the map, unless you're playing on VERY large maps (which has gotten harder with the introduction of 3" hexes).

For gameplay's sake you should probably use a sliding scale, ie the first few hexes from one unit to another are 100 meters each, the next few represent 200 meters each etc.

Just look out the window (if you have any sort of view that is  Razz ) and try to imagine how far 200 meters actually is. Then do 1 kilometer, and then 3... And BTW, an unobstructed line of sight over such a distance is hard to find, even on the russian steppes or in the NA desert (there is still brush, small rises, heat haze etc, even if the terrain would be classified "clear" in AAM).

I think WotC actually weren't that far off with a basic range of 8, and only units with clearly better optics and/or very high velocity guns getting extended range.
PostWed Feb 04, 2009 7:38 am
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Angel of Death

 

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Quote:
For gameplay's sake you should probably use a sliding scale, ie the first few hexes from one unit to another are 100 meters each, the next few represent 200 meters each etc.


Zeus, what you are proposing would be a warped space/time.
This is pretty hard to combine with infantry movement and such.
Do they run faster when they are further away ?


Quote:
.. an unobstructed line of sight over such a distance is hard to find, even on the russian steppes or in the NA desert (there is still brush, small rises, heat haze etc, even if the terrain would be classified "clear" in AAM).

Yes. That's the sollution. Better maps (/ terrain rules). I think scenery / terrain should be the most important features for blocking Line of Sight. Less use of 'clear' hexes. And some good rules for elevation.

I personally use hill-rows to create a more rolling landscape, which blocks LoS and creates interesting tactical situations. Like reverse slope situations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_slope_defence


p.s. ND : on the tanks : I have no idea about gun velocity except what I can look up.
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PostWed Feb 04, 2009 10:42 am
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NeuralDream

 
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The very long range is there purely for reasons of historical accuracy. In an unobstructed environment, IMO there is no reason to limit these tanks to an artificial max just for the sake of flavour. For example, in an unobstructed environment, such as a steppe with the size of a default AAM map, the King Tiger should be able to hit anywhere. During actual battle (not ideal training conditions), its probability of hitting a (stationary or rolling slowly) enemy tank at 3,000m was 30%. That's a probability of about 1-(1-0.3)^5=83% to hit a target if it fires 5 times in a turn.

The Flak36 was also routinely killing Allied tanks from 2.400m, often with one shot.

On the other hand, no sniper ever killed any enemy from 650m+. WoTC has the same ranges for snipers too. IMO, snipers, lmgs and tanks are nowhere near each other in terms of effective ranges.
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PostWed Feb 04, 2009 11:05 am
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HHRgamer

 

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Neural Dream, you are the man. I agree with your approach and hope finally to contribute some stats to this very worthy project.


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PostSat Feb 28, 2009 2:53 am
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