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"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." - Churchill
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Hm, can't wait to use this with new polish units.
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"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." - Churchill
+45 on GTL
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 Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:23 am |
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| Thuddeus wrote: | | boersma8 wrote: | Oh by the way, I've corrected the name of the SA of the Bofors 37 mm AT gun from "Dug-in" to "Entrenched". Nothing else changes, it's just that it might be confusing, because normally speaking the dug in SA means taht a unit cannot move. The 37 mm CAN move, it's just that it loses its +1/+1 defense then.
Hope this helps! |
Well, I'm leaving the cards as they are. The dug in vs. Entrenched is not significant, since the wording of the SA explains it well. As for the train, I have a well inked sharpie that will take care of that editing. I'm not sure how important that distinction will be.
BTW, I created OB sheets that show all the cards, at about 1/2 size, for each reinforcement phase on a single sheet which I printed on photo paper. They look great and will be very handy when playing.
I made them in Word 2007 and would be happy to share, but I don't know how to post them. |
Yes, I think it's pretty clear too. It's just a matter of being consistent.
Perhaps one of the moderators can help you out with posting the word document?
I don't think the other changes are extremely significant to gameplay. It's just that my regular playing buddy read somewhere that the panzer I was routinely equipped with a larger calibre bullet that were meant to pierce (thin) armour. Since most MGs also have AV stats of 3/3/2 I thought the panzer I at least deserves 3 dice at short range then. I've made the same change for the MG34, but again, the scenario shouldn't really change too much with or without this extra die.
Thanks again for all your effort in improving this scenario! (That goes for all contributors!)
Please post your comments after one or more of you have gotten round to actually trying it out! |
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:03 am |
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I've noticed that the wording on the statcard of the Polish cavalry officer is wrong: It says"......At the beginning of your movement phase....", it should read: "...At the beginning of your MOVE...(in your assault phase), as written in the scenario and unit description (second post in this thread).
Guess it's fine like it is, but just don't play it wrong! It's not THAT restricted that you already need to be adjacent in your movement phase to benefit from the SA in the assualt phase...  |
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:08 am |
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| boersma8 wrote: | I've noticed that the wording on the statcard of the Polish cavalry officer is wrong: It says"......At the beginning of your movement phase....", it should read: "...At the beginning of your MOVE...(in your assault phase), as written in the scenario and unit description (second post in this thread).
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I was unclear about your meaning on that because strictly speaking there isn't usually a "move" during the assault phase. So your intent was that the affected unit must start the assault phase adjacent to the captain to gain strike and fade? I actually wrote it that way the first time and then amended it. I will fix that. In fact I will try to make all the adjustments over the next couple of days. If you have suggested point values for the Schutzen and the others I left point off of, let me know.
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:33 pm |
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| Thuddeus wrote: | | boersma8 wrote: | I've noticed that the wording on the statcard of the Polish cavalry officer is wrong: It says"......At the beginning of your movement phase....", it should read: "...At the beginning of your MOVE...(in your assault phase), as written in the scenario and unit description (second post in this thread).
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I was unclear about your meaning on that because strictly speaking there isn't usually a "move" during the assault phase. So your intent was that the affected unit must start the assault phase adjacent to the captain to gain strike and fade? I actually wrote it that way the first time and then amended it. I will fix that. In fact I will try to make all the adjustments over the next couple of days. If you have suggested point values for the Schutzen and the others I left point off of, let me know. |
You're right. I suppose you could leave out the word "move". So : "Friendly cavalry units that start adjacent to this unit may move at speed 2 in your assault phase after attacking". That is at least the intention of the rule.
I automatically wrote down "Move", since in practice we've been using it for the cavalrists to start adjacent to their officer and then move into an enemy unit's hex to use their hand to hand 9 attack ( which is when they are most effective, I'd say)and the "strike and fade"- as you call it- out of harm's way. Since their other SA (Determined charge) allows them to keep on moving after having been disrupted (or worse when using the expanded rules!) it's never really a problem to make it into an enemy unit's hex.
Cost for the Schützen unit: I'd say 6 or 7. |
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:54 pm |
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| acs0424 wrote: | | Hm, can't wait to use this with new polish units. |
Some of them we'll get for sure (Bofors 37 mm AT gun, Polish officer-not necessarily with the same SA, though, Schützen, Stuka etc.). Others we may still have to wait for. Again others are already available, but simply for other nations (Renault R -35 for France and Romania for example, but personally I have no problem whatsoever to allow the Poles to use one of those versions. It's exactly the same model, just a different paint scheme and symbol probably) |
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:06 pm |
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[/quote] If you have suggested point values for the Schutzen and the others I left point off of, let me know.[/quote]
Schützen: 7 points
Samochod pancerny: 10 points
Panzer I: 9
Stuka: 15
These are the point values I'd attach to them. Of course you're free to alter them or to have a different opinion. I didn't create the scenario with a point value in mind. I'm sure the germans have many more points, but still the scenario is extremely challenging for them. Besides, for the scenario the 37 mm AT gun has two SAs ( Entrenched and superior camouflage) which make it incredibly more effective than it would be in an average point battle. Also, and not in the least, because all the enemy armour is at most 2/2! |
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:10 pm |
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So the AT guns get camo even after they've fired? That seems overly powerful. I can't imagine any large, loud gun staying hidden once it starts firing. Is there a historical precedence for this? Or is it necessary for scenario balance?
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:48 pm |
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I've updated all the cards with points and I've edited the wording on all of the SAs. I even gave the Bofors Superior Camo. If there are any other changes I missed, let me know.
The only difference from your suggestions was I made the Schutzen Infantry 6 points instead of 7. I think its defense is too low to warrant such a high cost.
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| Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:59 am |
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| Thuddeus wrote: | | So the AT guns get camo even after they've fired? That seems overly powerful. I can't imagine any large, loud gun staying hidden once it starts firing. Is there a historical precedence for this? Or is it necessary for scenario balance? |
They certainly do. As far as I know that's how the rule always works, BTW. Whenever a sniper fires for instance, it doesn't mean it loses its superior camouflage SA as long as it stays in cover!
Remember, that in this particular scenario one AT gun actually represents many more than one (as do all units for that matter. There were hundreds of German tanks involved in the battle for instance, but that would be unplayable and not even I have that large a collection of units!  . Even though of course the Germans had a vague idea of where the AT guns were after they'd fired were, they were actually very well camouflaged,and dug-in so also in that respect there's a lot to say for the rule, and yes it's also got to do with game balance!
Hope this helps! |
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| Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:01 am |
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| Thuddeus wrote: | | So the AT guns get camo even after they've fired? That seems overly powerful. I can't imagine any large, loud gun staying hidden once it starts firing. Is there a historical precedence for this? Or is it necessary for scenario balance? |
BTW, as written in the scenario post, they DO lose the superior camouflage SA when playing with the optional "Hidden" rule (that is any AT gun that is actually placed as such). Perhaps this is where some of the confusion comes from?? |
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| Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:03 am |
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| Thuddeus wrote: | I've updated all the cards with points and I've edited the wording on all of the SAs. I even gave the Bofors Superior Camo. If there are any other changes I missed, let me know.
The only difference from your suggestions was I made the Schutzen Infantry 6 points instead of 7. I think its defense is too low to warrant such a high cost. |
Great! Thans again!
I was also doubting between six and seven points, for what it's worth |
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| Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:05 am |
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"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." - Churchill
Posts: 1959
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Does this us EF maps with the terrain cards?
I will certianly try this out, anybody got any extra polish people?
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"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." - Churchill
+45 on GTL
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| Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:33 am |
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This scenario will need lots and lots of proxies. Who has a Panzer I? I think I'll be using my v1 Stuarts. I think the hamburgler car will become the pancerny. The list goes on...
BTW. I added a spotter card to the list.
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| Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:03 am |
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| acs0424 wrote: | Does this us EF maps with the terrain cards?
I will certianly try this out, anybody got any extra polish people? |
One Eastfront map and two maps from the (second) starter set.Bear in mind that you'll be needing two copies of the latter, because you will need the same map twice, that is front and back.
What do you mean by extra Polish "people"???
Yes, you will need lots of terrain overlay pieces. I've used the ones that come with "memoir '44", but there are other options. |
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| Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:56 am |
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| Thuddeus wrote: | This scenario will need lots and lots of proxies. Who has a Panzer I? I think I'll be using my v1 Stuarts. I think the hamburgler car will become the pancerny. The list goes on...
BTW. I added a spotter card to the list. |
Yes-for now- lots of proxies will be needed and I'm sure that even after the release of Early war, some will still be needed.
Of course if you don't have enough Panzergrenadires for instance, you can also replace these by nine Mausers posing as Panzergrenadiers. Everyone WILL have a panzer I (though not necessarily 7 of them right away! ) after the release of Early war.
I'm glad there's at least a 37 mm AT gun, an anti-tank rifle etc. which come really close to the actual Polish units, so it could have been worse....
Anyone gotten round to giving the scenario a spin yet?? |
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| Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:00 am |
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| boersma8 wrote: |
Anyone gotten round to giving the scenario a spin yet?? |
Saturday.
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| Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:26 pm |
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| boersma8 wrote: |
BTW, as written in the scenario post, they DO lose the superior camouflage SA when playing with the optional "Hidden" rule (that is any AT gun that is actually placed as such). Perhaps this is where some of the confusion comes from?? |
I wasn't confused. I just think that will make the AT guns unrealistically powerful. I will play them as written the first time, but I can see a long discussion about how to balance the scenario without making the AT guns invisible. Then again, that's what you already did with the alternate rules.
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| Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:31 pm |
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| Thuddeus wrote: | | boersma8 wrote: |
BTW, as written in the scenario post, they DO lose the superior camouflage SA when playing with the optional "Hidden" rule (that is any AT gun that is actually placed as such). Perhaps this is where some of the confusion comes from?? |
I wasn't confused. I just think that will make the AT guns unrealistically powerful. I will play them as written the first time, but I can see a long discussion about how to balance the scenario without making the AT guns invisible. Then again, that's what you already did with the alternate rules. |
If I may make a suggestion: for scenario balance I wouldn't tamper with the AT-guns. Instead I'd give the Germans an (off-board) fuel dump if you think they need it. The AT guns work fine (at least as intended!) the way they are! Read the links I've included in the top post!
We'll be playing this scenario yet again on Saturday as well! |
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| Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:29 am |
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| boersma8 wrote: |
If I may make a suggestion: for scenario balance I wouldn't tamper with the AT-guns. Instead I'd give the Germans an (off-board) fuel dump if you think they need it. The AT guns work fine (at least as intended!) the way they are! Read the links I've included in the top post!
We'll be playing this scenario yet again on Saturday as well! |
We plan to play the scenario as written the first go 'round. After that we'll discuss tweaks and balance.
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| Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:11 am |
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