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| Logres wrote: | What other planes have MG 5? Costs? OK, now add to that the Stuka Ops flying this thing off of carrier(s) and the SAs (Whatever the final form).
If it only had Expert Strafer, then sure, 6, but add some kind of suppression and alternate payload.... Getting into SA wonderland there, not to mention its haphazard contemporaries, the Re 2001 CB (11), the standard Stuka(7) and the R2(8). I think 7 is fair. Just my two cents.  |
If it only had Expert Strafer it'd probably be 4 points because it'd be a Stuka with 5 bomb dice. The standard has 9, why would one with 5 be only 1 point less? The Re2001 is a poor comparison because it is more than a bomber, Mission Selection is a powerful SA. With Alt Payload 10 the G is still less powerful, on average, than the B with the B potentially dropping 27 bomb dice over 3 rounds of action to the Gs 20 and the B would only pull ahead farther in each subsequent round.
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 Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:42 am |
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Everybody remember the 'G' in this version lost there dive brakes. My understanding is the dive bombers get some of there bomb dice from the accuracy of there attack v. level bombing with the period technology. So if you give the 'G' an alternate payload it should be less to substantialy less than the standard airframe. It's not just weight of payload that matters it's putting bombs on target too.
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:46 pm |
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35M3LSC
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| Asbestos wrote: |
Babs- At the end of the Air Mission phase, you may declare that this unit is using Flak Suppression. If you choose to do so, pick an enemy ship and roll a die. On a 3 or higher that ship takes a -1 penalty on each die when making anti-aircraft attacks this turn. If you successfully have used Flak Suppression against a ship, you may only make attacks against that target in the Air Attack Phase.
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So I suppressed the Atlanta in whose sector also sits the Alaska, and now my two Sparvieros and one Re 2001 CB can only attack her? Now the CB 2001 vitals Atlanta and I can't use my Sparvieros against Alaska, and thus must wait two more turns to try? What about the Torpedo Swarm ability?
Just saying that effect is not gonna be popular, not to mention irritating.
It could be fixed by rewording, as has been mentioned.
| Asbestos wrote: | | Logres wrote: | What other planes have MG 5? Costs? OK, now add to that the Stuka Ops flying this thing off of carrier(s) and the SAs (Whatever the final form).
If it only had Expert Strafer, then sure, 6, but add some kind of suppression and alternate payload.... Getting into SA wonderland there, not to mention its haphazard contemporaries, the Re 2001 CB (11), the standard Stuka(7) and the R2(8). I think 7 is fair. Just my two cents. |
If it only had Expert Strafer it'd probably be 4 points because it'd be a Stuka with 5 bomb dice. The standard has 9, why would one with 5 be only 1 point less? The Re2001 is a poor comparison because it is more than a bomber, Mission Selection is a powerful SA. With Alt Payload 10 the G is still less powerful, on average, than the B with the B potentially dropping 27 bomb dice over 3 rounds of action to the Gs 20 and the B would only pull ahead farther in each subsequent round. |
By all means, it could be only 4 points. I would be thrilled. I didn't mean Expert Strafer as the solitary SA, I meant it with Carrier OPS. Don't forget, Gunnery can be bumped by things like Tone (although not likely to see the Japanese and Germans unless a free for all kinda match), and the Emily, PBY Cat and almost certainly some forthcoming German/Italian or maybe even French unit (or Spanish), will have the Shadowing ability. I just think 5 strafing dice are powerful for a Fighter, so by forgetting it is NOT, I confuse myself. Sure 4 dice works, and maybe 7 is too high for the other 'once per game' abilities.
I like playing Axis, so Semper Gumby.
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:27 pm |
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You can't give the G bombs. It doesn't make sense. It's like giving the Hellcat bombs.
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:39 pm |
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| Logres wrote: | | Asbestos wrote: |
Babs- At the end of the Air Mission phase, you may declare that this unit is using Flak Suppression. If you choose to do so, pick an enemy ship and roll a die. On a 3 or higher that ship takes a -1 penalty on each die when making anti-aircraft attacks this turn. If you successfully have used Flak Suppression against a ship, you may only make attacks against that target in the Air Attack Phase.
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So I suppressed the Atlanta in whose sector also sits the Alaska, and now my two Sparvieros and one Re 2001 CB can only attack her? Now the CB 2001 vitals Atlanta and I can't use my Sparvieros against Alaska, and thus must wait two more turns to try? What about the Torpedo Swarm ability? |
Hm, when I read it I interpreted it as the G that did the flak suppressing was the only unit required to attack the suppressed ship. Alas, that is not how it is actually worded.
Looks like Alternate Payload is biting the dust as well....
I don't see the ability to operate from a carrier affecting this unit too much. Personally I have no idea how the 'Land-based' SA was accounted for by RB. Putting the 87B and R2 on carriers seems to have a net effect of... nothing. The units continue to not be overpowered for their point cost.
Where we are now:
4/7/1
MG 5
Expert Strafer
Land-based (may or may not operate from the GZ/Aquila, no consensus here yet)
Some sort of Flak Suppressing SA. A lot of people seem to be in favor of something like this.
Gone:
Alt Payload- No dive brakes?
Range 1 Gunnery- Too far for the poor 37mms
Crack Shot- Doesn't seem to have the support/value.
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:55 pm |
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IMO it's 4/7/1, MG 5, Land-based and nothing else. I don't see why we overcomplicate such a simple unit.
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:22 pm |
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SOCCEROO FEVER
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| NeuralDream wrote: | | IMO it's 4/7/1, MG 5, Land-based and nothing else. I don't see why we overcomplicate such a simple unit. |
it would nee expert straffer.
otherwise 2 hits wpuld abort
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:10 pm |
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ok
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:38 pm |
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| Asbestos wrote: | | Logres wrote: | | Asbestos wrote: |
Babs- At the end of the Air Mission phase, you may declare that this unit is using Flak Suppression. If you choose to do so, pick an enemy ship and roll a die. On a 3 or higher that ship takes a -1 penalty on each die when making anti-aircraft attacks this turn. If you successfully have used Flak Suppression against a ship, you may only make attacks against that target in the Air Attack Phase.
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So I suppressed the Atlanta in whose sector also sits the Alaska, and now my two Sparvieros and one Re 2001 CB can only attack her? Now the CB 2001 vitals Atlanta and I can't use my Sparvieros against Alaska, and thus must wait two more turns to try? What about the Torpedo Swarm ability? |
Hm, when I read it I interpreted it as the G that did the flak suppressing was the only unit required to attack the suppressed ship. Alas, that is not how it is actually worded.
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Asbestos, that was indeed the intention, but apparantly, our proofreader spotted an error.
fixed it
At the end of the Air Mission phase, you may declare that this unit is using Flak Suppression. If you choose to do so, pick an enemy ship and roll a die. On a 3 or higher that ship takes a -1 penalty on each die when making anti-aircraft attacks this turn. If you successfully have used Flak Suppression against a ship, this unit may only make attack it's Flak Suppression target in the Air Attack Phase. |
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| Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:00 am |
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If we make this thing a simple strafer that does less than the mighty Skua, how much should it cost?
Ju-87G Stuka (Dive Bomber)
Available from January 1943
Cost ???
Speed 14
Gunnery 5
No AA, No Bomb
4/7/1
Land Based, Expert Strafer
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| Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:05 am |
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| chesty wrote: | If we make this thing a simple strafer that does less than the mighty Skua, how much should it cost?
Ju-87G Stuka (Dive Bomber)
Available from January 1943
Cost ???
Speed 14
Gunnery 5
No AA, No Bomb
4/7/1
Land Based, Expert Strafer |
IMO:
5 Points
Not too high that no-one will use it
Not too low that every-one will use droves of them
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| Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:45 am |
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5 looks good to me.
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| Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:50 am |
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Last I checked the Skua was 5, carrier-capable, has AA 4 and bomb 5 and has Interceptor. It does only have 6 VA though.
Seriously, 5 attack die on something with 4 armor and it can only go every other turn? Just take the extra point and bring a Kondor or the extra two for a real Stuka.
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| Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:11 pm |
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| Asbestos wrote: | Last I checked the Skua was 5, carrier-capable, has AA 4 and bomb 5 and has Interceptor. It does only have 6 VA though.
Seriously, 5 attack die on something with 4 armor and it can only go every other turn? Just take the extra point and bring a Kondor or the extra two for a real Stuka. |
G'day all,
It was a tank buster.... and used Tungstan ammunition - which Germany was becoming critically short of - indeed into 1944 they stopped production of most Tungstan ammunition - Tungstan was far more value in tool making.
It just wasn't an anti-shipping aircraft....
So as a W@S player...
You would only use it if you liked it - or you had 5 points left..
Otherwise as you noted you would use a "real" anti-shipping aircraft...
ps. IMO That difference of 1 in VA is a major difference for aircraft - as it could be the difference between aborted (to return again) and destroyed.
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| Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:40 pm |
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The 37mms could also be loaded with more conventional ammo, such as HE, they just happened to use the tungsten core stuff on the tanks for greater penetration.
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:32 am |
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| Asbestos wrote: | | The 37mms could also be loaded with more conventional ammo, such as HE, they just happened to use the tungsten core stuff on the tanks for greater penetration. |
G'day all,
Absolutely...
But the "punch" becomes significantly less per shot... and as noted earlier each aircraft doesn't carry that much cannon ammo.
If they had been effective as anti-shipping aircraft (compared to other German aircraft) would they not have been used as such more in WW2?
If points wise they are attractive and effective - then they will be used more in W@S...
I'm having doubts about their effectiveness (W@S straffe rating).. but that may be in part that the more I look at W@S aircraft anti-shipping ratings the more dissatisfied in general I am becoming with the ratings/rationales.
EG compare the Stukas pire power with the fire power of a S-boat model... The S-Boat model (being multiple real S-Boats) have signifantly more ammo and a lot more combat exposure time in a turn - yet in W@S the straffing aircraft is more effective against an enemy Torpedo Boat than the S-Boat.
(or better compair against the fire power of a Fairmile D MTB - some of which carried 2x Automatic 57mm and 2-6 20mm plus MGs)
I know that we run into the W@S scale issue - officially each model aircraft equals about 30 aircraft and each turn equals 10 minutes - but realisticly that cannot be the scale that each aircraft "attack" equals.
First is that such a scale would assume 30 landbased aircraft to each sortee every 20 minutes (2 turns) so in a 20 turn game (yes we play some big/long games) that would be 10 sortees, where as the peak* sortee rate was about 7 per day - with attendant loss due to mechanical/physical failures.
In that 20 minute turn around - 30 aircraft & crews are briefed, are taxied, take off, climb, form up, transit to the target area, find target, attack, climb, form up, transit to base, land, refuel, rearm, debrief... and can continue to do that till destroyed..
If you look at carrier operations it is even less realistic.
So a W@S aircraft attack is probably no more than 6 aircraft
and the abort/destroyed results are representative of unservicable aircraft/crews, accumulated losses and or failures to execute effective attacks as wel as actual losses.
But... we are stuck with the current W@S ratings..
IMO if in doubt we should err towards under-rating/over-costing rather than the reverse.
*eg day 1 of 6 day war, opening of Barbarrosa etc
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:24 am |
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| David-in-Sydney wrote: |
But the "punch" becomes significantly less per shot... and as noted earlier each aircraft doesn't carry that much cannon ammo.
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How many bombs and torpedoes do you think non patrol bombers carried?
1 torp (sparviero excpetion), maybe 2 bombs, both released at the same time
87G gets multiple shots to hit, and can hit more than one part of the ship.
Low ammo argument is just silly, especially when the card is representative of 25 aircraft.
(suggesting that only 2 shells from each aircraft hit, that's 50 hits on an enemy which spells devastation to something lightly armored) |
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:32 am |
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By the time the 87G entered service, the war had already turned on the Germans. Even so, the Germans found the time to send them against gunboats and other watercraft. Presumably they felt they were acceptable in this role.
Btw, if I had to pick between shooting at a boat from a boat traveling at 40knots across the ocean... or from a plane... I think I'd have a better chance of hitting from the plane.
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:42 am |
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| Rengokuy wrote: | | David-in-Sydney wrote: |
But the "punch" becomes significantly less per shot... and as noted earlier each aircraft doesn't carry that much cannon ammo.
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How many bombs and torpedoes do you think non patrol bombers carried?
1 torp (sparviero excpetion), maybe 2 bombs, both released at the same time
87G gets multiple shots to hit, and can hit more than one part of the ship.
Low ammo argument is just silly, especially when the card is representative of 25 aircraft.
(suggesting that only 2 shells from each aircraft hit, that's 50 hits on an enemy which spells devastation to something lightly armored) |
G'day all,
Straffe 5 has a 86% chance of crippling a destroyer (Armour 2), and a 3% chance of destroying it outright (Vital 7)
30 x 12 x 37mm HE rounds probably would cripple a DD (clear it's decks at least) - it may even sink it (secondary explosions, fire etc)
But see my comments above about the realism of that being a 30 aircraft straffe in a 10 minute turn.
Straffe 5 has a 67% chance of damaging* a lightly armoured** Heavy Cruiser (eg CANBERRA), allowing for some aborts (AA 5 vs armour 4 = 44%) and assuming that the CANBERRA fails to destroy the straffing JU87 (AA 5 vs vital 7 = 3%).
With the above is 30% chance that the Ju87 will put a hit on the CA every 2 turns thus the Ju87 will likely sink the Heavy Cruiser in probably 12 turns (2 hours)...
*~0.12% of sinking outright
** Straffe 5 has a 24% chance of damaging a heavily armoured heavy cruiser (Armour 5).
30 x 12 x 37mm HE rounds may damage a lightly armoured heavy cruiser
but 3 x 30 x 12 x 37mm HE rounds is unlikely to sink it..
but 1 x 14" Torp may well sink it (though in the game 1 torp will only cripple it)
but 1 x 14" Torp may well sink it (though in the game 1 torp will only cripple it)
but 1 x 1000kg bomb may well sink it
This leads me to the position that:
Straffe - MUST include bombs and/or rockets to get any rating that makes it effective against medium to large ships (ie other than torpedo boats and destroyers)
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:09 am |
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| Asbestos wrote: | By the time the 87G entered service, the war had already turned on the Germans. Even so, the Germans found the time to send them against gunboats and other watercraft. Presumably they felt they were acceptable in this role.
Btw, if I had to pick between shooting at a boat from a boat traveling at 40knots across the ocean... or from a plane... I think I'd have a better chance of hitting from the plane. |
G'day all,
The footage posted earlier shows the 87G using it's 37mm cannons very effectively against some small river craft - it also shows the aircraft approaching in a shallow dive slow and straight to fire at close range.
This suggests to me:
A) It was propaganda footage (editing out of misses etc)
and either:
1) it was a very poorly defended target*
or
2) it was staged**
If you compare the footage to that of the Beufighters attacking you will see some significant differences - the Beufighters are shown missing, they are attacking fast and there appears to be flak - it is propaganda footage - but it appears to be of actual combat.
*If you flew low, slow and straight to shoot at close range at a warship it may have something unpleasant to say to you. Terminally unpleasant.
Expert Straffer and a 4/7 armour/vital is very generous...
**other classic staged footage include: Polish cavalry charge against armoured cars (in reality the polish cavalry after routing a Bn of German infantry charged past the A/C - the propaganda footage involved prisoners) & Aust 6th Div attacking at Alamein (the footage involved them attacking their cook house well behind the lines).
So.. how good was the JU87G against warships?
If it was good, then rate (factors/points) it as such.
If it was not, then rate (factors/points) it as such.
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| Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:31 am |
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