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Resident U-Head
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| David-in-Sydney wrote: | | and note that each 37mm gun had only 6 rounds of ammunition (see below) |
While not necessarily disagreeing with your other points, I was under the impression each gun was loaded with two 6-round clips...
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 Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:43 am |
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It was 12/gun
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Last edited by NeuralDream on Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:50 am |
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| David-in-Sydney wrote: | G'day all,
Just weighing into this,
These were tank killers, and while the selected gun footage also shows hits on boats - from the footage the JU's approach speed was really low and the range was close* - and note that each 37mm gun had only 6 rounds of ammunition (see below).
*closer than that in the Beufighters footage - and noting that the Beufighters flak suppression (hence expert strafer) was from automatics and rockets. |
I'm fairly certain the close range of the Stuka footage had to do more with them trying to hit a much smaller target. Were they shooting at something the size of the full on ships that the Beaus were shooting at, they'd probably be just as far away. The Beaus were almost literally shooting at the broadside of a barn (and missing like crazy) while the Stukas were shooting at things that looked like they were probably the size of a truck.
ND, I thought that the guns had 6 rounds each and the non-plane versions had 12. |
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| Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:18 pm |
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According to my books the guns were fed by 6-round clips. So 12 rounds per mission.
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| Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:49 pm |
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6 (or 12) rounds really isn't that big of a hinderence.
Diver Bombers and Torpedo bombers (usually) carry only enough ammo for one pass. The 87G is no different. Enough ammo for one....maybe 2 passes at a ship, or it could just fly along peppering whatever it wanted along the way. |
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| Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:58 am |
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| dracos42 wrote: | | How much did the Ju-87G weigh? I am wondering how much a plane's weight is a factor in carrier landings. With the armor and the gun pods, the Ju-87G may have given the GZ's deck and arrester wires problems. |
I got the B1 at 4330 kg and the G1 at 6330 kg. The G1 is a modified D5. I do not know the weight of the D5. Adding the guns (which wieghted 363 kg each) dramatically affected performance. Speed dropped to 314 km/h (was 373km/h for B1). It was extremely effective at anti-tank attacks. Most importantly the shells were fired with an initial speed of 850 m/s.
The planes were used almost excusively on the eastern front.
Babs out! |
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| Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:39 am |
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Th Ju 87 - C had a "take off" weight of 5300 kg, so I think with babs figures the G could have been launched by a carrrier IMHO.
but with her antitank guns, do you think it would be wise to use her against ships?
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| Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:53 am |
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| Rengokuy wrote: | 6 (or 12) rounds really isn't that big of a hinderence.
Diver Bombers and Torpedo bombers (usually) carry only enough ammo for one pass. The 87G is no different. Enough ammo for one....maybe 2 passes at a ship, or it could just fly along peppering whatever it wanted along the way. |
While we are talking about aircraft with cannons used as straffers, at some stage we might also want to do:
Hurricane Mk IID
Hurricane Mk IIB conversion armed with two 40 mm (1.57 in) AT cannons in a pod under each wing and a single Browning machine gun in each wing loaded with tracers for aiming purposes. The first aircraft flew on 18 September 1941 and deliveries started in 1942. Serial built aircraft had additional armour for the pilot, radiator and engine, and were armed with a Rolls-Royce gun with 12 rounds, later changed to the 40 mm (1.57 in) Vickers S gun with 15 rounds. The outer wing attachments were strengthened so that 4G could be pulled at a weight of 8,540 lb (3,874 kg).[43] The weight of guns and armour protection marginally impacted the aircraft's performance. These Hurricanes were nicknamed "Flying Can Openers", perhaps a play on the No. 6 Squadron's logo which flew the Hurricane starting in 1941.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_hurricane
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| Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:53 pm |
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| David-in-Sydney wrote: | | ... Hurricane Mk IIB conversion armed with two 40 mm (1.57 in) AT cannons in a pod under each wing and a single Browning machine gun in each wing loaded with tracers for aiming purposes. The first aircraft flew on 18 September 1941 and deliveries started in 1942. Serial built aircraft had additional armour for the pilot, radiator and engine, and were armed with a Rolls-Royce gun with 12 rounds, later changed to the 40 mm (1.57 in) Vickers S gun with 15 rounds... |
That's another tank buster. A little more ammo, but not quite as accurate. I still think tank buster types should get an SA for accuracy, and a bit off the Gunnery score because of the scanty ammo, to reflect the trade-off of bomb capacity for gun accuracy.
Something like this...
Ju-87G Stuka (Dive Bomber)
Available from January 1943
Cost 6 ?
Speed 14
Gunnery 4
No AA, No Bomb
4/7/1
Land Based, Expert Strafer, Crack Shot (New SA) ?
Crack Shot - This unit gets +1 on each attack die when making Strafing attacks.
If there's room?
Alternate Payload 8 - Once per game, this unit can make an 8-dice Bomb attack instead of a Strafing attack during the Air Attack phase.
| EvilKobra wrote: | | Why reinvent the wheel? |
We need something new for this one, I think. Something that you can do to reduce the AA of a particular Ship, instead of a normal Strafing attack. I'd suggest using a combination of the phrasing from Rapid Fire, Press the Attack, and maybe a few other SA's. How about this?...
Flak Suppression - At the end of your Air Mission phase, you may declare that this unit is using Flak Suppression. If you do, choose a local enemy Ship and roll a die. On a roll of 4(?) or lower, this unit is aborted. On a roll of 5(?) or higher, that Ship rolls 2(?) less Antiair attack dice this turn.
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| Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:21 am |
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| chesty wrote: |
| EvilKobra wrote: | | Why reinvent the wheel? |
We need something new for this one, I think. Something that you can do to reduce the AA of a particular Ship, instead of a normal Strafing attack. I'd suggest using a combination of the phrasing from Rapid Fire, Press the Attack, and maybe a few other SA's. How about this?...
Flak Suppression - At the end of your Air Mission phase, you may declare that this unit is using Flak Suppression. If you do, choose a local enemy Ship and roll a die. On a roll of 4(?) or lower, this unit is aborted. On a roll of 5(?) or higher, that Ship rolls 2(?) less Antiair attack dice this turn. |
I really like this idea, but I think it is too weak. A single 6 point plane isn't worth it to suppress only 2 die of AA, especially since these 2 die of AA are worth only 1 or 2 points on a ship (at least, that's the feeling I get from RB's current unit pricings).
Anyways, I rather see something like this:
Flak Suppression At the end of the Air Mission phase, you may declare that this unit is using Flak Suppression. If you choose to do so, pick an enemy ship and roll a die. On a 3 or higher that ship takes a -1 penalty on each die when making anti-aircraft attacks this turn. If you successfully have used Flak Suppression against a ship, you may only make attacks against that target in the Air Attack Phase.
I think wording Flak Suppression like this makes for an interesting unit. Since the Flak Suppression target is coupled to the attack target it get's rather interesting. That is, the ship will be more effective against destroyers and cruisers since it can suppress and damage them in the same round, while attacking battleships it will likely not be able to damage them, but the flak suppression will likely have larger negative effect since of the larger number of AA dice you can throw. Furthermore, I currently worded Flak Suppression such that you can still make your Alternative Payload attack once you have used Flak Suppression. Altough, this is not really historically accurate, I think it will give the unit a rather interesting attack against battleships once per game. So you can employ the G stuka in one of the following interesting ways:
1. Suppress and very likely damage a destroyer or cruiser.
2. Suppress a battleship (and very maybe damage it)
3. Suppress and damage a battleship once per game (using your alternate payload).
Babs out! |
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| Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:06 am |
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Of the flak suppressing SAs I think I like that one best.
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| Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:29 pm |
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I like that one too. Could get tricky on timing but that would be true if anything had been done like this in RL. Also, the SA could be used for other A/C at a later date.
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| Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:49 pm |
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| chesty wrote: | | David-in-Sydney wrote: | | ... Hurricane Mk IIB conversion armed with two 40 mm (1.57 in) AT cannons in a pod under each wing and a single Browning machine gun in each wing loaded with tracers for aiming purposes. The first aircraft flew on 18 September 1941 and deliveries started in 1942. Serial built aircraft had additional armour for the pilot, radiator and engine, and were armed with a Rolls-Royce gun with 12 rounds, later changed to the 40 mm (1.57 in) Vickers S gun with 15 rounds... |
That's another tank buster. A little more ammo, but not quite as accurate. I still think tank buster types should get an SA for accuracy, and a bit off the Gunnery score because of the scanty ammo, to reflect the trade-off of bomb capacity for gun accuracy.
Something like this...
Ju-87G Stuka (Dive Bomber)
Available from January 1943
Cost 6 ?
Speed 14
Gunnery 4
No AA, No Bomb
4/7/1
Land Based, Expert Strafer, Crack Shot (New SA) ?
Crack Shot - This unit gets +1 on each attack die when making Strafing attacks.
If there's room?
Alternate Payload 8 - Once per game, this unit can make an 8-dice Bomb attack instead of a Strafing attack during the Air Attack phase.
| EvilKobra wrote: | | Why reinvent the wheel? |
We need something new for this one, I think. Something that you can do to reduce the AA of a particular Ship, instead of a normal Strafing attack. I'd suggest using a combination of the phrasing from Rapid Fire, Press the Attack, and maybe a few other SA's. How about this?...
Flak Suppression - At the end of your Air Mission phase, you may declare that this unit is using Flak Suppression. If you do, choose a local enemy Ship and roll a die. On a roll of 4(?) or lower, this unit is aborted. On a roll of 5(?) or higher, that Ship rolls 2(?) less Antiair attack dice this turn. |
Crack Shot is a problem, because there is no point in awarding any aircraft an additional point on strafing to its MG attack. They only use it to strafe anyway.....
I modify and re-submit my previous post for the SA:
Flak Suppressor: Once per game, at the end of the Air Placement phase, this unit may make a suppression strafing run using its base strafing attack (no bonuses). Each 5 or 6 rolled subtracts one die from that ships AA defense for the following Air Defense Phase.
Give the 87G Expert Strafer, since the above SA would be once per game, and it would otherwise be used normally.
Ju-87G Stuka (Dive Bomber)
Available from January 1943
Cost: 6 or 7
Speed: 14 (A)
Gunnery: 4
Bomb: None
AA: None
4/7/1
Expert Strafer, Flak Suppressor, Alternate Payload 8
Cost should be 7 pts if carrier-capable, 6 if Land Based.
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| Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:55 pm |
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Why have some people switched back to gunnery 4? I thought we established that 2x37mms was gunnery 5.
We should make a list of what we definitely want on this thing.
Speed/Availability - no argument with what's already been posted.
MG: 5?
Bomb: None
Armor 4/7/1-Yes, it is more armored than the regular Stuka, but it is marginally slower, I think these cancel out.
SAs:
Land-based - of course, the debate is whether or not the GZ/Aquila should be able to carry these. Either way, I think the point will be moot since the GZ is a 109 carrier and the Aquila is for RE2001s  Stukas are rarely seen on Stuka capable carriers.
Expert Strafer- This thing is a flying cannon platform, it should have this.
--- I think those are the 'must-haves' the following are up for debate.
Alternate Payload 8/9/10/11- The 87B and R2 are Bomb 9. The G, however, is really a modified D which is Bomb 11. The gun pods are removable which turns this plane into an armored 87D for all intents and purposes so it shouldn't be able to carry as much as the D, but it could conceivably be equal or greater in bomb capacity to the B and R2.
Flak Suppression- We've seen a lot of suggestions for this. I'll try to gather them all here...
LogresV1- Once per game, instead of normal strafing, this unit may make a suppression strafing run. Each 5 or 6 rolled subtracts one die from that ships AA defense for the following turn.
LogresV2 - Once per game, at the end of the Air Placement phase, this unit may make a suppression strafing run using its base strafing attack (no bonuses). Each 5 or 6 rolled subtracts one die from that ships AA defense for the following Air Defense Phase.
Babs- At the end of the Air Mission phase, you may declare that this unit is using Flak Suppression. If you choose to do so, pick an enemy ship and roll a die. On a 3 or higher that ship takes a -1 penalty on each die when making anti-aircraft attacks this turn. If you successfully have used Flak Suppression against a ship, you may only make attacks against that target in the Air Attack Phase.
Chesty- Once per game, instead of normal strafing, this unit may make a suppression strafing run. Each 5 or 6 rolled subtracts one die from that ships AA defense for the following turn.
EvilKobraV1- If this unit is in the same sector as a friendly Bomber, enemy Ships get -1 on each attack die when making Antiair attacks against that Bomber.
EvilKobraV2- Whenever a local friendly Bomber is attacked by an enemy Ship in the Air Defense step, that Bomber gains +1 Armor this turn.
EvilKobraV3- If this unit is Strafing, enemy ships in its sector get -1 on each attack die when making Antiair attacks.
Asbestos- Whenever this unit attacks a ship with its main guns, roll a die. On a 5 or higher that ship's AA attacks suffer the effects of Crippled until the end of the next turn.
----
SAs that were suggested but appear to be out of the running:
Range 1 Strafing/Heavy Strafing
Crack Shot
I'm partial to AP 10 (or 9) and Babs suggestion for Flak Suppressor. Land-based... as others have said, it really wouldn't take a lot of imagination for these things to be converted into carrier-based units given the airframe, but I can see the argument for keeping them land-based only.
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| Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:07 pm |
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35M3LSC
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While I believe Babs' suggestion has merit, I don't believe it can be functionally implemented, and also would backfire too often to be well received.
I have to give credit to Chesty, since my original post borrowed heavily from his.....
MG 5 is cool too, but the unit would need to cost 7 no matter what I think then....
The Bomb thing-I didn't think about the conversion, I was looking for game balance, so 10 is fine, since AP is usually once per game. While AP 11 is doable, 11 I think would be too high for a unit that would suffer when the pilots are changing gears a bit.
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| Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:13 pm |
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| Logres wrote: | While I believe Babs' suggestion has merit, I don't believe it can be functionally implemented, and also would backfire too often to be well received.
I have to give credit to Chesty, since my original post borrowed heavily from his.....
MG 5 is cool too, but the unit would need to cost 7 no matter what I think then....
The Bomb thing-I didn't think about the conversion, I was looking for game balance, so 10 is fine, since AP is usually once per game. While AP 11 is doable, 11 I think would be too high for a unit that would suffer when the pilots are changing gears a bit. |
I'm not sure why MG 5 'requires' Cost 7. The regular Stuka has Bomb 9 and costs 7. MG 5 w/ Expert Strafer is essentially a Bomb 5 that can't be modified with Expert SAs.
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:31 am |
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35M3LSC
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What other planes have MG 5? Costs? OK, now add to that the Stuka Ops flying this thing off of carrier(s) and the SAs (Whatever the final form).
If it only had Expert Strafer, then sure, 6, but add some kind of suppression and alternate payload.... Getting into SA wonderland there, not to mention its haphazard contemporaries, the Re 2001 CB (11), the standard Stuka(7) and the R2(8). I think 7 is fair. Just my two cents.
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:07 am |
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| Logres wrote: | While I believe Babs' suggestion has merit, I don't believe it can be functionally implemented, and also would backfire too often to be well received.
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Could you explain why it cannot be functionally implemented? I think it is quite clear that it comes in affect after aircraft placement and before air defense phase.
Also I don't see how it can backfire.... |
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:27 am |
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| Asbestos wrote: | | Why have some people switched back to gunnery 4? I thought we established that 2x37mms was gunnery 5. |
I suggested Gunnery 4 to go with Crack Shot. Without it, I agree that Gunnery 5 is correct.
| Asbestos wrote: | | We should make a list of what we definitely want on this thing. |
That would be a great help when it comes to any new SA's.
| Asbestos wrote: | | Chesty- Once per game, instead of normal strafing, this unit may make a suppression strafing run. Each 5 or 6 rolled subtracts one die from that ships AA defense for the following turn. |
I'd like to withdraw that one, in favor of this one...
Flak Hammer - At the end of your Air Mission phase, you may declare that you are using Flak Hammer. If you do, choose a local enemy Ship and roll a die. On a 4 or lower, this unit is aborted. On a 5 or higher, that Ship rolls two fewer attack dice when making Antiair attacks this turn. This unit can't make an attack during the Air Attack phase on the same turn that it uses Flak Hammer.
I haven't tested babs' -1 per attack die version, but it's almost the same as mine, otherwise. I've also seen good suggestions from swarbs, Rengokuy, Logres, Diamondback, Asbestos, and EvilKobra. As mentioned above, we really need to decide what we want this thing to do before we build the SA for it, or cost it.
As much as I'd like to see a Flak Suppression type of SA, maybe we should consider a less exotic proposal...
Ju-87G Stuka (Dive Bomber)
Available from January 1943
Cost 6 ?
Speed 14
Gunnery 5
No AA, No Bomb
4/7/1
Land Based, Expert Strafer, Alternate Payload 10
Alternate Payload X - Once per game, this unit can make a 10-dice Bomb attack instead of a Strafing attack during the Air Attack phase.
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:31 am |
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| babs wrote: | | Logres wrote: | While I believe Babs' suggestion has merit, I don't believe it can be functionally implemented, and also would backfire too often to be well received.
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Could you explain why it cannot be functionally implemented? I think it is quite clear that it comes in affect after aircraft placement and before air defense phase.
Also I don't see how it can backfire.... |
It might not be worth wasting a perfectly good Strafing attack to maybe reduce a Ship's chance of hitting with its AA, but I'd put that in the "Player's choice" category.
I'm sure we can work out the perfect wording, once we know what we want from this thing.
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| Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:39 am |
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