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Post subject: ASW Threat Negative Sub Modifers
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When applying negative modifiers to a sub's torp attack, do you add the SAs that might give it more than one die BEFORE taking into account the negative modifiers from ASW assets or AFTER?
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 Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:01 pm |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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Before. Figure out the whole modifier, adding positives (SA's) and subtracting negatives (crippled/harassment). Then if the result is lower than one, bump it up to one.
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| Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:11 pm |
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| swarbs wrote: | | Before. Figure out the whole modifier, adding positives (SA's) and subtracting negatives (crippled/harassment). Then if the result is lower than one, bump it up to one. |
Okay, that answers my question. I was somehow under the impression the positive SAs were added after all the ASW negatives were applied to the natural dice amount of said sub.
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| Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:23 pm |
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| swarbs wrote: | | Before. Figure out the whole modifier, adding positives (SA's) and subtracting negatives (crippled/harassment). Then if the result is lower than one, bump it up to one. |
Forgot to say thanks: "Thanks!"
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| Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:24 pm |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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No problem, don't have a link or anything, but I know this question was posed at one point over on the official boards and I remembered bumping into it.
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| Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:38 pm |
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| swarbs wrote: | | No problem, don't have a link or anything, but I know this question was posed at one point over on the official boards and I remembered bumping into it. |
I imagine it did, but I don't play the game nearly as often as I'd like.
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| Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:51 pm |
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I think in the original sub threat rules posted by WotC the positive modifiers were applied after all negatives. It was then re-clarified to what swarbs said. So, you weren't wrong, you were just "out of date." 
wilt57
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| Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:17 am |
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| wilt57 wrote: | I think in the original sub threat rules posted by WotC the positive modifiers were applied after all negatives. It was then re-clarified to what swarbs said. So, you weren't wrong, you were just "out of date."
wilt57 |
Indeed. The lapse of even a single day's checking of the Rules Clarification can often leave one behind the times. 
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| Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:25 am |
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| I think the only time you can ignore a negative penalty is when your base number of torp attacks are 1, you're crippled, and something gives you a +1 for a total of 2. On the other hand, if your base number is 2, -1 for crippled and +1 for an SA you're back to 2 again. No idea why they ruled this, but I think its still under the "crippled" section. Maybe for things like the Sam Roberts so it can always make attacks on BBs with 2 dice? |
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| Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:02 pm |
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Okay, here is the most current statement on ASW threat from the Rules Clarification doc:
| Quote: | ASW threats stack; if you have several destroyers nearby, you can reduce a Submarine's attack to
0 dice or less. Special abilities apply normally, however, and abilities such as Wolfpack or
Destroyer Killer may offset some of the ASW Threat attack penalty. Even if a Submarine's
Torpedo attack rating is reduced to 0 or less after all penalties and bonuses are assessed, its
Torpedo attack is always a minimum of 1 die. |
What does this phrase "Special abilities apply normally" supposed to mean? For instance, let's say my I-26 was in a sector surrounded by 4 (!) U.S. destroyers of assorted type. And let's also say that an Enterprise-class carrier was 1 sector away. Those four DDs would reduce the I-26s attack to below 0 torp dice without any modifiers or conditions yet applied (other than the ASW Threat negatives).
But because the sub always gets at least 1 torp die, it's attack will be at least that. However, here is my question. According to that quote above, does the sub continue to get the SA Carrier Hunter on the upcoming turn? In other words, will it's attack be 1 die or 2 dice?
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| Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:20 pm |
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In your example,
I-26 at range 1: 3 dice
- shooting at a carrier: +1 dice (4 total)
- 4 destroyers harassing you: -4 dice (0 total)
- Minimum of 1 required (1 total)
Net result: 1 die torpedo attack.
Another example:
I-26 at range 3: 1 die
- I-26 crippled: -1 die (to minimum of 1)
- shooting at a carrier: +1 die (2 total)
Net result: 2 dice torpedo attack.
Third example,
I-26 at range 1: 3 dice
- I-26 crippled: -1 die (2 total)
- shooting at a carrier: +1 dice (3 total)
- 4 destroyers harassing you: -4 dice (-1 total)
- Minimum of 1 require: (1 total)
Net result: 1 die torpedo attack.
No, doesn't make sense to me either.
I guess the order of operations is:
1. Base dice
2. Crippled effect (can not drop below 1 at this point)
3. SA bonuses
4. Harassment (CAN drop below 1)
5. Anything less one defaults to 1
They've waffled back and forth on this quite a few times. |
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| Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:13 pm |
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Muahahaha!
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| Fellblade wrote: |
Another example:
I-26 at range 3: 1 die
- I-26 crippled: -1 die (to minimum of 1)
- shooting at a carrier: +1 die (2 total)
Net result: 2 dice torpedo attack.
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I'm not sure this is correct. Shouldn't it be:
I-26 at range 3: 1 die
- I-26 crippled: -1 die
- shooting at a carrier: +1 die
Net result: 1 dice torpedo attack.
the +1 and the -1 esentially cancel each other out. the only time the minimum of 1 should come into effect is in an example like this:
I-26 at range 3: 1 die
- I-26 crippled: -1 die
- shooting at a carrier: +1 die
- attacked by ASW air this turn: -1 die
- Destroyer (ASW ship) adjacent: -1
Net result: -1 dice torpedo attack. (minimum is always 1, so 1 die torpedo attack)
correct me if I'm wrong...but that's how we've always played it...I don't see any clarifications that say this is wrong...
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| Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:50 pm |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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Greyh, here's a quote from the clarifications document. I had always played as you did also, but I guess in error, unless this sentence is new:
A crippled Ship or Submarine rolls one less attack die when making Torpedo attacks, if they
have one (to a minimum of 1 die). If that Ship or Submarine has a special ability that grants a
bonus Torpedo attack die in certain conditions, then they still get that bonus die (2 dice) when
attacking under those conditions.
As others have said, I guess crippled is sort of counted first, this can take you no lower than one. Add bonuses, subtract harassment, then it is lower than one, bump it up to one.
I think the problem is these two rules weren't really considered together, so it might be a valid question for the other board.
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| Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:28 pm |
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I believe swarbs is correct here. The crippled status is not really a penalty as it is a "state of being." Thus it is applied first and then the harrassment penalties and SA bonuses apply against each other, a 0 resulting in 1 die.
This is how we have always played it and this is how the rules make most sense to me. That said WotC's ruling may be different.
wilt57
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| Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:06 pm |
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Muahahaha!
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I see that I am wrong, but I would love it if you could get this specifically addressed on the other forum swarbs...
doing it the way that they have set up seems....unnecessarily complicated - and is going to be difficult to explain to the younger players in our group. 
I think it should be kept simple: add everything togeather - if it is negative number, then you still get one...simple.
grrr. 
edit:(yes, I added grrr. - what up)
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| Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:21 pm |
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Kick Butt Kido Butai
Posts: 245
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| Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:28 am |
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Muahahaha!
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| Quote: | I don't think there's any contradiction. Both the PDF and Rich indicated that no matter how many minuses a sub takes from ASW threats, it never has its torpedo attack rating reduced below 1. In your first example, the u-boat would have a -3 penalty. U-510 only has a torpedo attack value of 3, however, so the penalties reduce it to 0. It could still make a 1-die torpedo attack despite the -3 penalty.
The Wolfpack bonus is factored into the overall equation -- "Even if
a Submarine's Torpedo attack rating is reduced to 0 or less after all penalties and bonuses are assessed, its Torpedo attack is always a minimum of 1 die." With -2 from ASW threats and +1 from Wolfpack, a u-boat would get 2 dice at close range -- 3-2=1, 1+1=2. If the ASW threat was -3, the u-boat would get 1 die -- 3-3=0, 0+1=1. If the ASW threat was -4, the u-boat would still get 1 die -- 3-4=-1, -1+1=0, but the attack gets a minimum of 1 die.
I believe that the PDF contradicts an earlier ruling in this regard* (which allowed the Wolfpack bonus to be added to the 1-die minimum no matter how many penalties were applied). The PDF takes precedence.
Steve
* I haven't searched for it extensively, so I could be remembering this wrong. |
So, if I am reading this correctly, the way I am thinking is right? (Man all this math is killing me  )
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| Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:34 am |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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Except that the rules PDF now contains a sentence saying that you do add your bonuses after applying the one die minimum (at least for the crippled penalty).
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| Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:41 am |
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The key is your total can go below zero. Notice the example of -4 ASW harrassment. 3-4=-1. In some of your examples above you guys were 'bottoming out' your calculations at 1. That is not correct.
So apply all the minuses, then add all the pluses. If the final result is 1 or less you get 1 torpedo.
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| Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:21 am |
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| swarbs wrote: | | Except that the rules PDF now contains a sentence saying that you do add your bonuses after applying the one die minimum (at least for the crippled penalty). |
Where is that in the document? I don't see that in the ASW section.
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| Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:26 am |
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