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Post subject: Pennsylvania Camo
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Anyone have any idea how the camo scheme of the Pennsylvania might have differed from the Arizona at Pearl Harbor?
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 Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:05 pm |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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No diference in the S&S database, unless on top of turrets--both were MS 1 Dark Gray in 1941.
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measure_1.htm
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| Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:06 pm |
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I've seen that, but it's refuted by this:
http://archives.starbulletin.com/2006/12/07/news/story04.html
The article makes mention of different color turret tops having a different significance, but I have no idea what would be different between the Arizona and Pennsylvania.
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| Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:20 pm |
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Assuming the article is correct I would try to find out if Pennsylvania was in the same BB Division as AZ.
I look forward to seeing your rendition and I do plan to do a Pennsylvania as well as a Nevad once I get the extra models.
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| Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:04 pm |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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Pennsy was in the same BatDiv, IIRC. (Ironically, she was the one fitted for flagship duty, while Admiral Kidd ran his flag up Arizona's mast instead.)
Probably just a matter of find out how the turrets were color-coded for each BatDiv and individual ship, then repaint Arizona's trrets accordingly. Nice, quick repaint that even Old Shakyhands over here could probably do given the data...
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| Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:42 pm |
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| afilter wrote: | Assuming the article is correct I would try to find out if Pennsylvania was in the same BB Division as AZ.
I look forward to seeing your rendition and I do plan to do a Pennsylvania as well as a Nevad once I get the extra models. |
Unfortunately, I couldn't find any information, so I gave up on historical accuracy and just painted the turrets blue. It still looks good, but it's probably not historically accurate.
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| Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:27 pm |
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According to this source the Arizona, Nevada and Oklahoma had just returned to Pearl Harbor after conducting divisional night firing exercises on December 4th. So that would place these three ships in the same division
http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/battlesh/bb39.htm
This place on Wiki tells the ships that were in the Atlantic & Pacific Battleship Divisions, but we know that this place can be inaccurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BatDiv
Div 1 (Red) - Arizona, Nevada & Oklahoma (95% Fact)
Div 2 (White) - Pensylvania, Tennessee & California (Guess)
Div 3 (Blue) - Colorado, Maryland & West Virginia (Guess)
Div 4 (Black) - New Mexico, Mississippi & Idaho (Guess)
Div 5 (Yellow) - New York, Texas & Arkansas (Guess)
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| Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:28 pm |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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I'll see if I can find the last prewar Fahey's--early ones were broken down by division.
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| Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:30 pm |
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| Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:15 pm |
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Actually I believe that is Oklahoma, West Viginia had cage masts at the time. If all else fails the file title kind of gives it away. 
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| Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:39 pm |
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| Diamondback wrote: | | Pennsy was in the same BatDiv, IIRC. (Ironically, she was the one fitted for flagship duty, while Admiral Kidd ran his flag up Arizona's mast instead.) |
Believe that this was because Pennsylvania was in dry dock at the time of the attack. She was, I've think I've heard, the flagship of the Pacific fleet, not sure if that's hyperbole that I've been exposed to since I'm from PA, but I know I've heard that somewhere. Interestingly enough, two of her guns are now on display at the Military Museum across the street from where I grew up.
Hopefully the picture works (how would you like to be tailgated by that?) , here's the article with some other pictures.
http://pamilmuseum.org/Latest/Latest_News_Guns.html
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| Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:44 pm |
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| afilter wrote: |
Actually I believe that is Oklahoma, West Viginia had cage masts at the time. If all else fails the file title kind of gives it away. |
And that is what you get for having too many windows open and copy/pasteing the wrong picture and the wrong text. Its dead Jim!
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| Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:47 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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I think I've seen Pennsy listed as both PacFlt flag and same BatDiv as AZ at various times--and the jokers at the library moved the naval history section on me, so I'll have to bloodhound Fahey's out again before I can check on that for you.
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| Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:56 am |
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This is a good little search to get the facts. Here is what I have found, and I even managed to get a email from a historian at the Valor in the Pacific National Monument in Pearl Harbor to put me in touch with the curator at the Naval Musuem at Annapilos who might be able to shed some light on this subject. I will cross my fingers and see what the curator tells me!
b.) Division 1 (red) - Arizona, Nevada & Oklahoma
c.) Division 2 (white) - Pennsylvania, Tennessee & California
d.) Division 4 (black)- Colorado, Maryland & West Virginia
e.) Division 3?? (light blue) - Training Division ships - New York, Texas & Arkansas (Could be either BatDiv 3 or 5)
f.) Division 5?? (yellow) - New Mexico, Mississippi & Idaho (Could be either BatDiv 3 or 5)
g.) Division 6 (unk color) - Washington & North Carolina
h.) Division 7 (unk color) - Iowa & New Jersey
i.) Division 8 (unk color) - Indiana & Massachusetts
j.) Division 9 (unk color) - South Dakota & Alabama
k.) Division 10 (unk color) - Wisconsin & Missouri (A guess because they are not listed anywhere)
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| Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:19 am |
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"In March of 1941, following an order from Adm. Kimmel, commander of Naval Forces, Pearl Harbor, all forward main gun turret tops were painted in colors corresponding to their assigned squadron." I believe after Dec. 7 they went to MS 21 Navy Blue System, so your only looking at around 8 months of colored turret tops.
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| Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:37 am |
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Straight-Shooter
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| Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:16 am |
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Straight-Shooter
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| Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:18 am |
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Straight-Shooter
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| Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:22 am |
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Straight-Shooter
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| Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:25 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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| Jameson wrote: | I wonder if the tails of the planes were painted by division as well?  |
In the Prewar Standard, tailgroups were painted a different color for each carrier, with the wing and fuselage stripes identifying the different flights in each squadron. (In threes, they hadn't discovered the superiority of the two-ship and the Thach Weave yet, remember?)
By mid-'41, blue-gray over white was the standard. And even CinCPAC didn't dare mess with BuAer in Washington...
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| Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:46 am |
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