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I tried a variation on the San Diego / Laffey Swarm:
6 San Diegos
7 Laffeys
Iowa
For 197
The US Swarm took 2 objectives while the Iowa stood off and protected them from the German surface fleet. But each turn the 109s / Kondors / Subs took down a ship or 2. Finally, with 4 hits the Iowa sat on the last objective contested by all 4 german surface ships and 3 uboats. Some really bad US gunnery kept a GZ alive 1 more turn, and in the end BOTH surface fleets were sunk, with that last objective unclaimed. The US won on points only - Socring 200 for objectives, 100 for the surface fleet bonus, 64 for the surface fleet, and 3 Kondors and a 109 for 25 more. Total of 389.
The Germans scored 297. 197 for the fleet + 100 bonus. Even with this crazy fleet the KOD fleet could have easily won if a torp or 2 had hit the Iowa earlier.
Interesting to note that the US DDs did not sink any subs, but did harrass them quite a bit until they were all sunk.
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TimK
IJN FUSO
www.modelwarshipcombat.com |
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 Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:49 am |
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Alright, i have yet to playtest, but i came up with this counter:
Jamaica (15)
Belfast (14)
7x Beaufighter (63)
2x Arunta (14)
2x Saumerez (16)
2x Javeline (18)
2x Illustrious (40)
4x Hurricanes (20)
200 points even.
The sub hunter and smoke groups scoot off to kill those pesky subs, and mirror the German fleet's carrier and Cruiser movements. The high vital and torp defese of the Illustrious should keep it fairly safe, and the feeble Kondors can be hunted by the sea canes and the Beaufighters, who will later switch to torping and strafing once the Kondor threat is neutralized. My only worry is the cruisers survival. However, after hunting all those subs, the DD's can contest/claim objectives and throw everything they've got against whats left! |
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| Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:41 pm |
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Posts: 934
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Here is a 200 point fleet that should work against the Scissors Kondor build. The surface ships are in three groups of three, each with a carrier and Arunta. The total AA rolls per turn is 11, with the San Diego and Laffey at range 1 and Fencer at possible range 3. The Alaska, Laffey and CAP can move the Wildcat to another sector if needed.
Alaska
Arunta
Fencer
San Diego
Arunta
Illustrious
Laffey
Arunta
Princeton
Avenger x3
Dauntless
Wildcat
PBY Catalina
Truculent
I know it lacks big guns, but Alaska's range-3 is the same as California, with only small reduction in armor. The Fencer has ranged AA to combat Kondor's ASM and it has ASW for the Subs. Arunta adds AA to a sector as well, with a Sub Hunter ability if needed.
San Diego offers ranged AA and has a 50% chance of avoiding it's first damage marker. Arunta is for AA and ASW support while the Illustious supports fighters, bombers and is a tough nut to crack- with 5 armor and 8 AA.
Laffey offers ranged AA, can move a fighter once per game and is also a tough nut to crack- avoiding bomb kills. Again, Arunta is there for AA and ASW support while Princeton supports fighters, bombers and has a good 8 AA rating.
The Avengers are also key to this strategy as they can go after the subs or larger surface ships while the Dauntless will go after destroyers or cruisers. The Catalina will improve the sucess in the air. And the Truculent will help against subs and large surface ships. |
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:40 am |
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I hate to say it, but I think both of these fleets will get popped
hanzfrans, with Beaufighters and Hurricanes, you're looking at 46% abort rate and 5% kill rate against Kondors. They should be able to cripple and likely sink ~3 destroyers on turn 1 and the rest will follow since KoD has no problem sending some Kondors into harms way to bomb once he's used the ASMs. Once the destoyers are gone, you have no ASW assets, and KoDs surface ships should be more than a match for yours, while his pinpointed, wolfpacked, non-harrassed subs will be killing your fleet much faster than your Beaufighters can break through his not insignificant fighter cover and AA to strafe...
herky, lacking meaningful fighter cover (and with the placement disadvantages of fewer planes)Princeton and Fencer will VERY likely be sunk on turn 1. Bf109s will be drooling to take some cracks at unescorted bombers with 9 dice or your PBY. Alaska will be smothered in torpedoes. KoDs surface forces will mop up the survivors without much difficulty
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I've been grappling with this build for a while. It is evil. It is not subtle. The potential magic bullets are CHEAP, HEAVILY ARMORED, NOT SLOW battleships (aka Jean Bart), Baltimores (LOTS OF THEM), Kidds (LOTS OF THEM), possibly Laffeys in the mix, and maybe fighters (LOTS OF THEM). |
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:16 am |
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USS OKLAHOMA BB-37
Posts: 6666
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Kondor_Over_Dakota, I think the following would stand a chance against your fleet if you want to test it.
All British:
Ark Royal - 22
Illustrious - 20
2 x Kent - 26
2 x Javelin - 18
6 x Truculent - 72
7 x Martlet - 42
Total = 200 pt's
Lets rumble!! Unless your afraid?  Okie
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:42 am |
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Posts: 749
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Sure. Let's just continue on the earlier online game thread between IJNFuso and me.
Are you good with maps? 
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:32 pm |
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| fredmiracle wrote: |
herky, lacking meaningful fighter cover (and with the placement disadvantages of fewer planes)Princeton and Fencer will VERY likely be sunk on turn 1. Bf109s will be drooling to take some cracks at unescorted bombers with 9 dice or your PBY. Alaska will be smothered in torpedoes. KoDs surface forces will mop up the survivors without much difficulty
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I can take criticism, no problem. But my build is AA heavy, at least in defense. And at range- the San Diego, Fencer and Laffey all have ranged AA while Alaska and Laffey can move a fighter to account for not having placed one in the best spot. The build is lacking fighter escort though for the bombers and I concur that the 4 Bf109s are killer. I considered swapping out one or two Aruntas for fighters but felt the AA was too much then. Perhaps I was wrong though. But the destroyers, Truculent and Avengers will nullify the u-boats.
It might not be the best build, but I was going for ranged AA to combat the ASM of the Kondor and think that is a logical way to go. But since KoD didn't even bother responding to it, he must think it not even close... |
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:07 pm |
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| herky80 wrote: | | [ But since KoD didn't even bother responding to it, he must think it not even close... |
I would have, but FredM put it so succinctly that I had little more to say.
The ranged AA is a nice SA, no doubt. But I can severely reduce it's effectivness when I hit your fleet on the flanks (each end of your line of ships) where you can only use two ships at a pop to fire at my Kondors.
Yours is a good build with good ships but, alas, I realyl don't see it having a chance of victory outside of having lots of miracle rolls.
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:59 pm |
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I think it lacks fighters. And you'll have an advantage when placing aircraft. I'm working on that... But the ranged AA will work if the the Laffey group stays in the back and the three groups form a triangle. Think of it as the Chicago Bull's triangle defense that won championships in the 1990's. Of course the build lacks a Michael Jordan, but I think that would be the Alaska- BB guns at a cheap price.
Anyway, the Fencer's Fighter Cover 5 is range 3, and the Laffey, Alaska and CAP can move fighters to the fringe... now I need to work in more fighters. |
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:19 pm |
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| herky80 wrote: | | ...and the three groups form a triangle... |
The apex of each triangle then becomes the problem for you. Just as the weakest point of a line is it's ends, the weakest point of a triangle is it's apex's.
I think you're better off tossing the princeton and adding in a couple land based fighters. Or more fencers? (maybe)
The problem with Fencers (in my opinion) is that if you bring too few it's a waste of points, and if you bring too many it's a waste of points. Also, it's one of the hardest ships to find the magic number of them to include in a build. So, typically it just ends up being a waste of space in your fleet roster.
Come back with a V1.2 of that build.
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:02 pm |
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The Kondors will destroy any cruiser or destroyer, or even light carrier, so forget about bringing those- unless you bring huge protection, and why bring huge protection for a destroyer or cruiser?
And then there is the submarine threat. You can't use destroyers because the antiship missile will be a sure thing, if not a standard bomb attack. That leaves submarines and aircraft.
The four Bf109s are tough and will protect those subs from your torpedo bombers. The only counter is Hellcats because even aborting the Bf109s will not abort their AA attack on your air ASW attempts. Pair a Hellcat with Yorktown's Dog2 and you've got a 10 AA against the Bf109's 9 vital. Your best hope. Or you can punt attempts to vital the Bf109s and go after the Kondors. In which case sub two Hurricanes for a Hellcat since it'll help in the aircraft placement phase.
56 Alaska x2
26 Saratoga
23 Yorktown
20 Hellcat x2
10 Hurricane x2
18 Halifax x3
9 Devastator
14 Avenger
24 Barb x2
This build pairs an Alaska with a Saratoga and Yorktown. All four ships can deflect the bomb attack of the Kondors, even at range when they avoid the ship's AA. The super-fighter Hellcats (8AA) combine with the super-cheap Hurricanes (6AA) to offer depth in fighter coverage. The Saratoga adds expert torp and dogfighter with cruiser-strength main and secondary gunnery, a match for the Graf Zeppelins. The Yorktown was chosen for dogfighter 2, giving Hellcat a 10 AA or Hurricane an 8 AA. The Alaskas are a bargain at 28 points each with battleship stats, the key being 7 armor and enough main guns to take on the Axis surface fleet. It will come down to if the Barbs and Avenger/Devastator can sink the u-510s in time. I chose the Barb over the Truculent because without any ASW threat, the Run Silent SA is useless while the Audacious Attack might come into play. |
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:37 pm |
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Dude, the Laffey, it simply can not be destroyed by the Kondors. That is the destroyer of choice in the anti-Kondor build.
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:54 pm |
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| Duh, I totally forgot- anti-bombs. |
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:56 pm |
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| Asbestos wrote: | | Dude, the Laffey, it simply can not be destroyed by the Kondors. That is the destroyer of choice in the anti-Kondor build. |
I have solitaired a few builds against this Kondor build and I strongly think Laffey poses some problems for it. The problem with investing a lot of points in fighters is that they might become wasted points against a lot of other builds. Laffey is a pretty decent all around unit because it does have a torpedo, can´t be killed by any dive bomber and will help against a Japanese small ship swarm.
Here is a build I might try out next:
2x Repulse 66
4x San Diego 44
10x Laffey 90 |
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| Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:58 pm |
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Laffey is good, I like it in these builds, but its no panacea. 5 dice isn't a guarantee of aborting even 1 Kondor. If you have no fighters the Kondors will cripple the Laffeys, the 109s can then strafe at liesure
The thing is too, at the end you will face a bunch of torps. Hopefully less if some DDs surrvive, but they will be there. Alaska only takes 12 shots to sink on average and Repulse 18. To think of it another way, you're paying about 2 pts for each torp roll KOD will take to kill you. Compare to Baltimore, which you pay 1 pt for each of his torp rolls (and Jean Bart is close with more survivability vs. surface/air)... |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:37 am |
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Posts: 934
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I revised my last fleet and will playtest it this afternoon:
28 Alaska
26 Saratoga
23 Yorktown
9 Laffey
36 Barb x3
10 Hellcat
12 Martlett x2
7 Wildcat
12 Halifax x2
14 Avenger
9 Devastator
14 Helldiver
Most importantly, I think this fleet would be a good match against most fleets because it has variety to combat any threat. It does lack a big gun BB, but I think they became obsolete, replaced by carrier warfare.
Of the 200 pts:
36 on Subs
29 on Fighters
49 on Bombers
49 on Carriers
37 on Surface Ships
The air fleet is perfect- it has 9 planes to place, which is a large number. But the cheapest units, Devastator and Halifax are balanced by the best air units in the game- Hellcat, Helldiver and Avenger. The best of the best should beat anything. But you can't just take the best, or your opponent will win in numbers- so take cheaper units too and use them where their strengths come out- the Martlett, while a weaker fighter will handle the weaker planes while the Hellcat tackles something else.
I love this fleet because it give you a lot of choices and options for how to employ the airplanes. |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:52 pm |
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| fredmiracle wrote: | Laffey is good, I like it in these builds, but its no panacea. 5 dice isn't a guarantee of aborting even 1 Kondor. If you have no fighters the Kondors will cripple the Laffeys, the 109s can then strafe at liesure
The thing is too, at the end you will face a bunch of torps. Hopefully less if some DDs surrvive, but they will be there. Alaska only takes 12 shots to sink on average and Repulse 18. To think of it another way, you're paying about 2 pts for each torp roll KOD will take to kill you. Compare to Baltimore, which you pay 1 pt for each of his torp rolls (and Jean Bart is close with more survivability vs. surface/air)... |
The main bonus about Laffey is that it can´t be destroyed by a Kondor. It´s actually not that easy to get in a strafe by a 109 when you have a few San Diegos in there with a ranged AA of 6 and local AA of 8 and the 109 has 4 for strafing armor. So, a good chance to have at least 6 Laffeys protected from 109s on turn 2. |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:15 pm |
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Posts: 749
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[quote="USS Yorktown (CV-5 So, a good chance to have at least 6 Laffeys protected from 109s on turn 2.[/quote]
Unless they're all crippled and laggin behind the air cover of all those San Diego's. 
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:32 pm |
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Posts: 934
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| Six Laffeys are too many. They will get crippled for sure. |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:03 pm |
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Posts: 806
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| herky80 wrote: | | Six Laffeys are too many. They will get crippled for sure. |
Well, if every Kondor gets it's ASM off then you're going to lose no matter what you bring. |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:11 pm |
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