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Post subject: jfkziegler's Troop Landing Rules
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Below you will find the rough draft of my new troop landing rules. Please let me know what you think, and try to poke holes and let me know where I need to make corrections. Thanks!
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Troop-Landing Rules
Version 1.3
Many of the major actions of World War II, such as D-day or Leyte Gulf, were amphibious operations dedicated to landing troops. While the current War at Sea rules work well for fleet actions, they do not necessarily cover these vital operations. The rules presented here attempt to plug that gap for players who are interested in re-creating these historical situations or creating their own. The following rules aren’t used in the Standard, Convoy, or Major Engagement scenarios.
Setting Up: You may play using any standard map. Instead of placing objective tokens, place islands on the spots where the objective tokens would normally be, and place the objective tokens on top of those islands. These islands count as objectives for the scenario, and when they are claimed, score the exact same points as an objective would. In the standard scenario, this means that each island is worth 50 points.
Players may deploy a standardized transport unit in this format. It has the following characteristics:
Troop Transport
Ship (Auxiliary)
Cost 4
Armour 1
Vital Armour 7
Hull Points 2
Speed 2
Antiair 4 (range 0)
Stay Close: The sector this unit is in can contain two Auxiliary units above its normal stacking limit.
Slow 2: At the beginning of your Sea Movement phase, roll a die. On a 2 or less, this unit gets -1 speed this turn.
Claiming an Objective: Unlike in the Standard scenario, in these rules objectives are not removed from the board when claimed. An objective is considered claimed by one side when that side is the only side with troops on the objective when the check for victory is made. Objectives, even after they have been claimed, may later revert back to neutral status, or even be claimed by the other side.
Checking for Victory: At the end of each turn, a check for victory is made. Each player counts the total value of enemy ships that they have sunk, the total value of objectives that they have claimed, and any points they have acquired through other special abilities. If their point total exceeds the amount needed to win the scenario, then they win the game. If not, the game continues.
Loading/Unloading Troop Counters: Each side has an unlimited amount of troop counters, which may be loaded onto units in the player’s deployment area. Loading troops is a free action that may occur at any time. However, each unit may only load troops up to its capacity. Also, units may not deploy with troops already loaded. Troop counters may be unloaded at any island, but this can only be done at the end of the Sea Movement phase. All troop counters need not be unloaded at once. A unit that has unloaded troops this turn may not make any attacks except anti-air attacks.
Troop counters have the following characteristics:
Troop Counter
Armour 5
Hull Points 2
Hard to Kill: If this unit has more than one hull point remaining, it cannot be destroyed by a single attack from a Ship or Aircraft no matter how many successes are rolled.
Regroup: At the end of each turn, remove all damage counters from this unit.
Naval Gunfire vs. Troop Combat: Ships may attack troops in an objective sector during the Surface Attack phase, but only using gunnery attacks.
Aircraft vs. Troop Combat: Aircraft may attack troops in an objective sector during the Air Attack phase, but only using bomb or gunnery attacks.
Troop vs. Troop Combat: Troop combat occurs at the end of the Surface Combat phase. Troop counters on the same island must attack each other in the Surface Attack Phase. Each player, during his or her attack step, rolls one die for every troop counter they have on the island, and places a face-down destroyed counter next to an enemy troop counter for every 5 or 6 rolled. At the end of the phase, if only one side has troops remaining, it is in control of the island. If both sides have troops remaining, the island is still being fought over. Combat can ensue again in the next Surface Attack Phase.
Ship Capacity: An Auxiliary unit can carry two troop counters. An Auxiliary unit with the Landing special ability can carry three troop counters. A unit with the Secret Cargo or Precious Cargo special abilities may carry one troop counter. No other units may carry troop counters unless a special ability allows them to do so. If a unit carrying troop counters is sunk, the troop counters are lost, unless the Rescue ability is used (see below).
Special Rules:
- Units do not receive victory points for the Vital Cargo, Secret Cargo, or Precious Cargo special abilities. Units also do not receive victory points for the Landing or Rescue special abilities.
- If a unit carrying troop counters is destroyed while it's in the same sector as a unit with the special ability Rescue, you may make a Rescue roll. If the Rescue is successful, you may place one Troop counter on the unit with Rescue.
- Ships with the special abilities Bombard or Shore Support roll two extra attack dice when making gunnery attacks against troop counters.
- The special ability No Sea Control has no relevance to this format.
Optional Rules:
- When an Auxiliary is destroyed, it is placed back in its owner's ship deployment area. Victory points are still scored for it as normal.
- For faster play, use the base map vertically instead of horizontally. This will allow transports to get to and from the islands faster.
A special thanks to chesty for helping me in the development of these rules! Also, thanks to the_lucky_y, Lt_Vleclopity, Otto von Starkburg, drittal, Greyh Seer, UNC_Samurai, and Diamondback for development assistance.
Updates Log:
Version 1.1:
-added standardized troop transport card
-removed rescue section
-changed section names to include the words Naval Gunfire and Bombers
-added standardized troop counter card and re-wrote combat rules for ships and aircraft
-added phrase preventing unloading ships from engaging in surface combat
-added optional rule for speeded up play
Version 1.2:
-clarified the section not allowing troop counters to be vitaled through adding a SA to the troop counter
-added text disallowing pre-loading troops
-changed the word "ship" to the word "unit" in the loading/unloading rules
-simplified the wording of the naval gunfire and aircraft sections
-changed bomber section name back to aircraft
-shortened the wording the in the Troop vs. Troop Combat section
Version 1.3:
-changed the wording of Hard to Kill SA to make troop counters able to kill other troop counters in one hit
-added optional rule allowing transports to re-spawn
-added Rescue option back in
-clarified that troop counters do not all have to be unloaded at once
-added Regroup ability to the Troop Counters
-clarified that troop combat is at the end of the surface combat phase
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Last edited by jfkziegler on Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:11 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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 Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:00 pm |
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| Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:06 pm |
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It sounds pretty good to me, you have figured out some nifty ways to perform combat, playtesting will work out any bugs  |
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| Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:07 pm |
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| Otto von Starkburg wrote: | | Do you want some response? |
Yes, certainly.
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| Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:50 pm |
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| Quote: | | Checking for Victory: At the end of each turn, a check for victory is made. Each player counts the total value of enemy ships that they have sunk, the total value of objectives that they have claimed, and any points they have acquired through other special abilities. If their point total exceeds the amount needed to win the scenario, then they win the game. If not, the game continues. |
I would focus only on claiming/holding the objective. The Status of any fleet should be irrelevant.
| Quote: | | Loading/Unloading Troop Counters: Each side has an unlimited amount of troop counters, which may be loaded onto ships in the player’s deployment area. Loading troops is a free action that may occur at any time. However, each ship may only load troops up to its capacity. Troop counters may be unloaded at any island, but this can only be done at the end of the Sea Movement phase. |
My suggestion: Instead of the Surface Attack Phase the ships can unload their Troops. They are only successfull at unloading their troops, if they are not destroyed until the beginning of the next Surface Attack Phase.
You delay the deployment opperations and the (attacking) Player must protect their units. Also, lay smoke screen-unit get more important.
| Quote: | | Ship vs. Troop Combat: Ships may fire on troops that are on an island, but only using gunnery attacks, and only during the surface attack phase. To do so, the ship will roll its gunnery attack, and the troop will roll eight dice. The scores will be counted according to normal gunnery rules. If the result from the ship is higher, the troop counter is destroyed. If the result from the troop is higher, the troop survives. |
I would give them stats. Also, its nearly impossible to make attacks that destroy immedialty a unit. May be, you use something like "hard to destroy" (-> instead of immediatly destroying the unit, the unit get 2 damage).
Also, there should be a limit of counters at one landing zone.
| Quote: | | Troop vs. Troop Combat: |
They should play A&A Minis. One round in WaS is 10 Minutes? 
[quot]Ship Capacity[/quote]
Vital Cargo/Secret Cargo/any other Cargo quarted -> # of troop counters
Landing Capacity halfed (round up) -> # of troop countrs |
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| Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:14 pm |
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| Otto von Starkburg wrote: | | I would focus only on claiming/holding the objective. The Status of any fleet should be irrelevant. |
I suppose it could be done like that. The reason I did it the way I did is because it makes it fit neatly into the existing War at Sea rules.
If done your way, perhaps winning the game could be achieved by holding two objectives. The only concern I have with that, though, is that if I manage to land my troops first, the game could be over before my opponent had a chance to counter-attack.
| Quote: | | My suggestion: Instead of the Surface Attack Phase the ships can unload their Troops. They are only successfull at unloading their troops, if they are not destroyed until the beginning of the next Surface Attack Phase. |
While that would be more realistic, it would also make it virtually impossible to ever successfully land troops. Think of how difficult it is to keep transports alive in the convoy scenario.
| Quote: | | You delay the deployment opperations and the (attacking) Player must protect their units. Also, lay smoke screen-unit get more important. |
I think having to protect your units all the way across the map is difficult enough. Having to protect them for an extra turn when both forces have converged on the center of the map is likely impossible, especially given how easy transports are to destroy.
I do agree with you that it would make smoke screen more important, though.
| Quote: | | I would give them stats. |
The reason I did not give them stats is for simplicity. Standardization makes things considerably easier to keep track of. I am a firm believer in the principle of KISS when it comes to game design.
| Quote: | | Also, its nearly impossible to make attacks that destroy immedialty a unit. May be, you use something like "hard to destroy" (-> instead of immediatly destroying the unit, the unit get 2 damage). |
Again, this would come down to realism against game mechanics. Also, one must keep in mind the situation. These are freshly landed troops, not troops that have had a while to dig in. That would make them easier to destroy, in my opinion.
| Quote: | | Also, there should be a limit of counters at one landing zone. |
The reason I designed it without a limit of counters is so that if your ships survive, they can go back and pick up more troops. Really, what I see as being the major limiting factor here is not the number of troops available, but how long you can keep your transports alive.
| Quote: | | They should play A&A Minis. One round in WaS is 10 Minutes? |
It's hard to tell online if you're being sarcastic or not, so I am going to assume you're not and outline my reasons for not going with that idea. Basically, I think that having an AAM game break out whenever there is a land combat would make the game go on a long, long time, and would create a serious disadvantage for those people who do not play AAM. Also, War at Sea remains primarily a naval game, so I don't want to get too caught up in the land side of things. I think that the system I created does a pretty good job of allowing for land battles that are easy enough to carry out so that they don't distract from the sea battles, which are still the primary focus.
| Quote: | Vital Cargo/Secret Cargo/any other Cargo quarted -> # of troop counters
Landing Capacity halfed (round up) -> # of troop countrs |
You may be right here, but I have two concerns:
1) I want units with the Landing ability to be able to carry more units, not less, since they are dedicated troop carriers.
2) What you are proposing would create many more troop counters than my original proposal. You may be right that more troop counters are warranted and would make for better play, but I would like to get see how my numbers play out in playtesting before deciding to change them.
Thank you for the feedback, and please keep the feedback coming!
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| Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:35 pm |
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| Lt_Vleclopity wrote: | | It sounds pretty good to me, you have figured out some nifty ways to perform combat, playtesting will work out any bugs |
The bugs are the primary thing I am looking for at the moment. I think the overall system is sound, but I am definitely looking for a lot of feedback on what the bugs inherent in the system may be. I am especially concerned with rules loopholes or anything like that.
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| Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:37 pm |
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Okay, I got a chance to do some playtesting (Germans versus British, with troops being carried by JOB and Nordmark only), and came to some conclusions:
1) Nordmark is very powerful. It's statted like a destroyer with far better VA and hull points, and it can often move 2 spaces. I'm not sure how to fix this one yet, of if it even should be fixed.
2) I may need to make troop vs. troop combat hit on a 4 or higher. Then again, given the pressure that can be brought on them by warships and planes, maybe they should remain harder to kill.
3) Units with Convoy Guardian are very good in this format.
4) The game goes very slowly because most of the units have Speed 1 and it takes a while for them to get anywhere. This is made even worse by the fact that they have to go all the way back to the starting area to pick up extra troops. I'm open to suggestions on how to fix this one.
Also, if anyone can playtest these rules some more and give me more feedback, I would love to hear it.
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:34 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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Idea:
TRANSFER: If a loaded and empty transport spend an entire turn in the same sector with no movement or shooting by either, they may transfer cargo between them.
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:43 am |
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I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea, Diamondback, but I'm not seeing what the benefit would be. Since most transports would be of roughly equal capability, why waste the turn to make the transfer?
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:09 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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Good point--but if you have one large transport and a buncha APD's with Close Escort, you can restock two of 'em halfway and capitalize on their higher speed for the second half the run.
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:12 am |
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fixing those transports suggestions:
1. a transport unit does never count towards the sector´s stacking limit
(allow to have two or 3 escorting units in the same sector)
2. give all transports hull 4 as like the Nordmarck has
(would equal the massive advantage of the nordmark a bit)
3. Nordmarck speed shall be 1 w/o slow
4. if a transport is destroyed , other ships in the same sector may rescue
the troops perhaps only with an successful dice roll.
(enemy submarines in possible attack range may forbid that action)
(only small ships as corvettes and destroyers can pick up troops)
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:12 am |
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Post subject: Re: jfkziegler's Troop Landing Rules
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| jfkziegler wrote: | | Below you will find the rough draft of my new troop landing rules. Please let me know what you think, and try to poke holes and let me know where I need to make corrections. Thanks! |
Thanks for taking this on! I'll admit that I'm excited by this project. Once you work out the basic rules (the "engine") for handling Troops, I'm sure we'll all find lots of interesting ways to use them.
| jfkziegler wrote: | | Many of the major actions of World War II, such as D-day or Leyte Gulf, were amphibious operations dedicated to landing troops... |
I heartily agree that Troops should be included in WaS. I can't tell you how many Ships will be able to get useful SA's, once we get some reasonable Troop rules. 
| jfkziegler wrote: | | Instead of placing objective tokens, place islands on the spots where the objective tokens would normally be, and place the objective tokens on top of those islands. |
How about a mix of some kind, or saying that island objectives are optional? Oh, right. This is a special case.  Hmmm...
| jfkziegler wrote: | | Claiming an Objective: Unlike in the Standard scenario, in these rules objectives are not removed from the board when claimed. An objective is considered claimed by one side when that side is the only side with troops on the objective when the check for victory is made. Objectives, even after they have been claimed, may later revert back to neutral status, or even be claimed by the other side. |
I like having objectives that remain in play and have to be held, but I'm not sure about the part I emphazised with italics and bold. If a player is out of transports, but has Sea Control of unoccupied islands, can he or she claim the victory points for those islands? I think you might mention that Troops trump Sea Control, when claiming objectives, just to be clear. I should mention that this was the heart of my own efforts at finding something useful for Troops to do. I figured that being able to steam up to a contested objective and score the points for it by landing some Troops would be worthwhile. Especially if those Troops can then deny Sea Control to my opponent.
| jfkziegler wrote: | | Checking for Victory: At the end of each turn... |
Right.
| jfkziegler wrote: | | Loading/Unloading Troop Counters: Each side has... |
Looks right to me.
| jfkziegler wrote: | | Ship vs. Troop Combat: Ships may fire on troops... |
I would suggest changing Ship to Naval Gunfire. I'm sure play testing will reveal a good Armor score for generic Troop counters.
| jfkziegler wrote: | | Aircraft vs. Troop Combat: Aircraft may attack troops |
If you aren't going to allow Strafing attacks, why not just call it Bomber vs Troops? I have to object to freshly landed Troops having an AA score of any kind, by the way. They should have to rely on Fighter protection and Heavy Antiair from supporting Ships.
| jfkziegler wrote: | | Troop vs. Troop Combat: If there are troop counters from two opposing fleets on the same island... |
I was hoping to avoid playing any land battles. I would much prefer the idea of one counter simply neutralizing another. I know the odds should be much better than 1 to 1 for a successful invasion, but I think we can justify the anamoly by assuming that a Troop counter is reduced in strength by the process of landing. A full strength Troop counter assaults the island and takes heavy losses. The surviving Troops take fortified positions that bring the odds back to 1 to 1. Sound reasonable?
| jfkziegler wrote: | | Ship Capacity: An Auxiliary unit can carry... |
Secret Cargo means Subs. Subs? I don't know. I've found some Destroyers that actually served as fast transports, and I'll be looking for some Cruisers, too. (They're harder to find than I expected.) If someone were to make cards for 'em, the Germans wouldn't be the only fleet with fast transports anymore.
| jfkziegler wrote: | | Units do not receive victory points for the Vital Cargo, Secret Cargo, or Precious Cargo special abilities. Units also do not receive victory points for the Landing special ability or the Rescue special ability. |
Makes sense only if you use Cargo SA's as proxies for Troop transport SA's. I'm not sure about Rescue either, since you can treat the example you cite below as a special case.
| jfkziegler wrote: | | Ships with the special abilities Bombard or Shore Support roll two extra attack dice when making gunnery attacks against troop counters. |
Excellent! Ships with those SA's just became more useful.
| jfkziegler wrote: | | The special ability No Sea Control has no relevance to this format. |
As mentioned above, I think Sea Control should still apply to unoccupied island objectives. I need to do some play testing, but I'd rather not rule Sea Control out, just yet.
| jfkziegler wrote: | | If a unit carrying troop counters is sunk while it is in the same square as a unit with the special ability Rescue, the unit with Rescue may roll a die. On a 5 or higher, you may place the troop counter on the unit with Rescue. |
Nice! 
Maybe just say "If a Ship carrying troop counters is sunk while it is in the same sector as a Ship with the special ability Rescue, and if the Rescue is successful, you may place the troop counter on the Ship with Rescue."
| jfkziegler wrote: | | A special thanks to chesty for helping me in the development of these rules! |
Well, we could use 'em. That's for sure. Thanks, jfk!
Last edited by chesty on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:11 am |
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Replay to JFKs 1st response.
| Quote: |
If done your way, perhaps winning the game could be achieved by holding two objectives. The only concern I have with that, though, is that if I manage to land my troops first, the game could be over before my opponent had a chance to counter-attack. |
That can you solve that you rule: That landing zone (objective) must be hold three round without any interruption.
| Quote: | | While that would be more realistic, it would also make it virtually impossible to ever successfully land troops. Think of how difficult it is to keep transports alive in the convoy scenario. |
| Quote: | | I think having to protect your units all the way across the map is difficult enough. Having to protect them for an extra turn when both forces have converged on the center of the map is likely impossible, especially given how easy transports are to destroy. |
Okay, i can understand you. But i wouldn't allow any unit to attack and land troops (so, landing instead of any attacks).
| Quote: | | The reason I did not give them stats is for simplicity. Standardization makes things considerably easier to keep track of. I am a firm believer in the principle of KISS when it comes to game design. |
I'am more a friend of holding the rules in line. You can give the landing forces an A and AV. For every token, you get a +1 on Hull. For every succesful attack against the landing force, they lose on hull (or two at VA). That is in line, you spare time with dice throwing and so on.
| Quote: | | These are freshly landed troops, not troops that have had a while to dig in. |
They are hundreds of soldiers, may be some tanks. Its hard to succesfull hundreds of soldiers and tens of tanks with ship guns. The terrain is their adventage. They needn't any time to dig in (they have about 5000squareyards to disperse).
| Quote: | You may be right here, but I have two concerns:
1) I want units with the Landing ability to be able to carry more units, not less, since they are dedicated troop carriers.
2) What you are proposing would create many more troop counters than my original proposal. You may be right that more troop counters are warranted and would make for better play, but I would like to get see how my numbers play out in playtesting before deciding to change them. |
Your point. |
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:32 pm |
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My response to rescue and transfer:
You are talking about transfer or rescue hundreds of people in 10 minutes. That is quite impossible and should not be possible.
Nordmark:
Nordmark is a auxillary unit, but not transport unit. For these scenarios, its seem to be right made some custom cards represent by proxies.
If i remember right, many liners and passanger ships were used as transports for troops. They differ in size and cargo capacity. I think, two or three different types of troop transporters are okay [the fast with speed 2, the slow and large and the slow and small].
These transporters shouldn't get any AA-Value, if you rule to negate the stacking rules. That make them very powerful and for your opponent very hard to destroy them with air attacks.
Just my 2 cents.
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:39 pm |
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I have a few ideas:
- use standard transports or stats for each country (JOB or Maru) this evens the playing field
- use either AA board game infantry or AA Land infantry for the troops, it would add a nice touch and you may be doing this already
- I like the 8 dice roll for infantry, its not so much as an offensive roll but a survival roll against naval fire...those poor guys just went for cover for the most part and the idea is one way fighting not back and forth
- if there is a tie on naval vs troop fire or troop vs troop fire the troop(s) should be considered 'damaged' 'disrupted' 'frightened' 'tired'...whatever you wish to call it but that troop unit would only get 6 die on any further attacks, until a new troop is added to the island to 'reinforce'...you know what I mean
-each troop may only attack once per round so it is possible to have damaged trrops sharing the island
- play with a point limit per nation and you decide in advance how many transports and infantry you have, infantry could cost 3 pts maybe... you decide... so do you go with more infantry to take the islands or do you go with more ships/planes to try to prevent landings and land smaller forces...there needs to be a minimum though otherwise people will abuse the rules...also a limit on air cover
- to 'speed' up transports maybe playing with the map turned 90 degrees so each nation enters from the long sides of the map with the islands placed equally down the middle, instead of the short sides
my brain hurts........... |
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:03 pm |
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Thanks to everyone for your suggestions and feedback! My thoughts are below:
| The_lucky_Y wrote: | fixing those transports suggestions:
1. a transport unit does never count towards the sector´s stacking limit
(allow to have two or 3 escorting units in the same sector) |
I like the idea, although I think unlimited would be a bit much. If it were unlimited, I could just stack half or all my transports with two Atlanta's and call it a day. However, the idea of increasing the stacking limit is worth looking into.
| Quote: | 2. give all transports hull 4 as like the Nordmarck has
(would equal the massive advantage of the nordmark a bit) |
The only concern I have with doing that is that it would make it very difficult for subs to bring down transports. Maybe Hull 2 with higher VA?
| Quote: | | 3. Nordmarck speed shall be 1 w/o slow |
That could work. I am also considering creating a standardized transport unit, such as OvS suggested below. That might fix a lot of the problem.
| Quote: | 4. if a transport is destroyed , other ships in the same sector may rescue
the troops perhaps only with an successful dice roll.
(enemy submarines in possible attack range may forbid that action)
(only small ships as corvettes and destroyers can pick up troops) |
I think I agree with OvS below that the Rescue mechanic is not realistic and should probably be removed. I do still like the concept, though, so I am not sure.
| chesty wrote: | | How about a mix of some kind, or saying that island objectives are optional? Oh, right. This is a special case. |
The major difficulty with that is that without island objectives there is no reason to have troops in the first place, since you would hae nothing to use the troops for.
| Quote: | | I like having objectives that remain in play and have to be held, but I'm not sure about the part I emphazised with italics and bold. If a player is out of transports, but has Sea Control of unoccupied islands, can he or she claim the victory points for those islands? I think you might mention that Troops trump Sea Control, when claiming objectives, just to be clear. I should mention that this was the heart of my own efforts at finding something useful for Troops to do. I figured that being able to steam up to a contested objective and score the points for it by landing some Troops would be worthwhile. Especially if those Troops can then deny Sea Control to my opponent. |
I see what you're saying here, but I am not sure I agree. My major issue is the fact that Sea Control becomes irrelevant as soon as you make the objective an island, because ships cannot claim an island anyway. Now, rules could be added to allow ships to claim an island, but I am not sure how that would work. Maybe something like, "If you have a ship adjacent to an island without troops on it and the opponent does not, you claim that island?" It seems to me that if such a mechanic were added, the best way to win would be to bring some big battleships, destroy your opponent's surface navy (or at least the part of it around the island), destroy whatever troop tokens were on the island, and never even bother with troops of your own. That, of course, would be counter-productive to the whole idea of having troop rules. I think any mechanic that allows ships to claim islands in this format would ultimately result in the winning strategy being not to bring troops at all, and obviously I think that would defeat the purpose of the exercise.
| Quote: | | I would suggest changing Ship to Naval Gunfire. I'm sure play testing will reveal a good Armor score for generic Troop counters. |
You and the names of things... 
Sure, we can change the name of the rules section to Naval Gunfire.
As for giving armor scores to troop units, I am of two minds about it.
1) It would standardize the combat system into the bigger War at Sea combat system, and that would be a good thing.
2) I think it would make it harder to figure out exactly what scores troops should have, because they would have to have an armour score that is fair against aircraft, fair against ships, and fair against other troops. The nice thing about my current system is that you can alter the number of defense dice thrown if need be.
You're probably right, though. The system should probably be standardized. Perhaps I could create a stat card for a generic troop counter at the same time as a stat card is created for a generic auxiliary.
| Quote: | | If you aren't going to allow Strafing attacks, why not just call it Bomber vs Troops? I have to object to freshly landed Troops having an AA score of any kind, by the way. They should have to rely on Fighter protection and Heavy Antiair from supporting Ships. |
I suppose it could be called Bomber vs. Troops. The reason I did not allow strafing attacks is because I want to keep troops relatively difficult to kill. If they were statted low enough so that fighters could kill them, then destroyers could also kill them with ease, and no troop counters would ever survive.
As for the AA score, I suppose it could be dropped. Again, it was added to make them a little more survivable, but I guess it could be removed.
| Quote: | | I was hoping to avoid playing any land battles. I would much prefer the idea of one counter simply neutralizing another. I know the odds should be much better than 1 to 1 for a successful invasion, but I think we can justify the anamoly by assuming that a Troop counter is reduced in strength by the process of landing. A full strength Troop counter assaults the island and takes heavy losses. The surviving Troops take fortified positions that bring the odds back to 1 to 1. Sound reasonable? |
I disagree with you on this one. I do think that there should be some element of randomness involved, some hope that those two troop counters you just landed might prevail against the four troop counters already inhabiting the island. I also think that the mechanic I created for this allows the combat to be done quickly and not significantly distract from the naval game.
| Quote: | | Secret Cargo means Subs. Subs? I don't know. I've found some Destroyers that actually served as fast transports, and I'll be looking for some Cruisers, too. (They're harder to find than I expected.) If someone were to make cards for 'em, the Germans wouldn't be the only fleet with fast transports anymore. |
The Japanese absolutely used subs to land troops during the war. In fact, one of the major criticisms of Japanese sub use was that they used them too much in that capacity and not enough as the weapons they were designed to be. As for destroyer and cruiser transports, I would love to get some designed, as they would definitely diversify the strategy a bit.
| Quote: | | Makes sense only if you use Cargo SA's as proxies for Troop transport SA's. I'm not sure about Rescue either, since you can treat the example you cite below as a special case. |
Yeah, I think I am going to pull Rescue and let it go back to being what it normally is. It's sad, though, because I thought this format had finally made it semi-useful.
| Otto von Starkburg wrote: | | That can you solve that you rule: That landing zone (objective) must be hold three round without any interruption. |
My concern is that having troops have to survive three turns might be nearly impossible. I am also concerned that it would take what is already a long format and make the games even longer.
| Quote: | | Okay, i can understand you. But i wouldn't allow any unit to attack and land troops (so, landing instead of any attacks). |
That's a good point. I need to add that into the rules.
| Quote: | | I'am more a friend of holding the rules in line. You can give the landing forces an A and AV. For every token, you get a +1 on Hull. For every succesful attack against the landing force, they lose on hull (or two at VA). That is in line, you spare time with dice throwing and so on. |
Interesting idea, and it may wind up forming the basis of how I re-constitute the combat system for troops versus ships and aircraft.
| Quote: | They are hundreds of soldiers, may be some tanks. Its hard to succesfull hundreds of soldiers and tens of tanks with ship guns. The terrain is their adventage. They needn't any time to dig in (they have about 5000squareyards to disperse).
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True. I'll think about a way to get the mechanic right. Maybe troop counters should have an armour and hull score, but no VA. That way, you would have to hit them twice to destroy them. That would make them more survivable.
| Quote: | | You are talking about transfer or rescue hundreds of people in 10 minutes. That is quite impossible and should not be possible. |
As I said above, I think I agree with you here. I will probably drop the rescue mechanic. My only concern is that the timeline argument doesn't really apply, given the fact that planes can take off, hit a target, and go back to their carriers in one game turn.
| Quote: | | Nordmark is a auxillary unit, but not transport unit. For these scenarios, its seem to be right made some custom cards represent by proxies. |
I agree that standardized auxiliary cards may be the way to go.
| Quote: | | These transporters shouldn't get any AA-Value, if you rule to negate the stacking rules. That make them very powerful and for your opponent very hard to destroy them with air attacks. |
A valid point, although I may just give them a very low AA value.
Thanks again to everyone for their feedback, and please keep it coming. Also, please try playtesting the rules some. The feedback is worth twice as much when it comes from playtesting experience.
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 pm |
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| Lt_Vleclopity wrote: | I have a few ideas:
- use standard transports or stats for each country (JOB or Maru) this evens the playing field |
I think this is a good idea, although I think the JOB/Maru stats are too low to be an effective transport. I think they would wind up making this similar to the convoy scenario, which obviously we want to avoid.
| Quote: | | - use either AA board game infantry or AA Land infantry for the troops, it would add a nice touch and you may be doing this already |
You mean as counters? I think this is a good idea, although to be honest at the moment I am using pennies for playtesting.
| Quote: | | - I like the 8 dice roll for infantry, its not so much as an offensive roll but a survival roll against naval fire...those poor guys just went for cover for the most part and the idea is one way fighting not back and forth |
Yeah, I am still very split about this one. I like my mechanic, but on the other hand I can also see the argument for standardizing it into the War at Sea rules.
| Quote: | | - if there is a tie on naval vs troop fire or troop vs troop fire the troop(s) should be considered 'damaged' 'disrupted' 'frightened' 'tired'...whatever you wish to call it but that troop unit would only get 6 die on any further attacks, until a new troop is added to the island to 'reinforce'...you know what I mean |
Interesting idea. Of course, I'd have to find a way to re-work that idea if I do away with the die rolls.
| Quote: | | -each troop may only attack once per round so it is possible to have damaged trrops sharing the island |
Interesting concept.
| Quote: | | - play with a point limit per nation and you decide in advance how many transports and infantry you have, infantry could cost 3 pts maybe... you decide... so do you go with more infantry to take the islands or do you go with more ships/planes to try to prevent landings and land smaller forces...there needs to be a minimum though otherwise people will abuse the rules...also a limit on air cover |
I think limiting the amount of transports already puts a de facto limit on infantry, since it limits your ability to move them. They do you no good while stuck in your starting area.
| Quote: | | - to 'speed' up transports maybe playing with the map turned 90 degrees so each nation enters from the long sides of the map with the islands placed equally down the middle, instead of the short sides |
Wow, I really like that idea. That opens up all types of cool possibilities. Thanks!
| Quote: | | my brain hurts........... |
Thanks for your help, though.
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:42 pm |
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maybe the stacking limits from my scenario grandest fleet version would help out a bit:
Stacking limits:
-in every sector you can place surface vessels for max 7 point total
/past 1943 9 point total
- Battleships: 4 points
- Cruisers/Carriers with capacity above one plane : 3 points
- Destroyers/Carriers with capacity of one plane : 2 points
- Auxillary and Vessels with shallow draft: 1 point
* in every sector you can place one submarine/past 1943 two subs per sector
* in every sector you can place aircraft for max 6 point total per side(axis or allies)
- pre 1943 aircraft uses up one point
- post 1942 air units use 1,5 points
- large sub pen allows to place an extra submarine in its sector
in that scenario the transport units are needed to occupy neutral islands and the stacking limits will work, sure if you play without year limits then use the pre 1943 limit .
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Last edited by The_lucky_Y on Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:49 pm |
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They're good rules, but I think they add more complexity than what I am looking for.
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| Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:54 pm |
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