:: :: FAQ :: Search :: Memberlist :: Join! (free) :: Profile :: Log in to check your private messages :: Log in ::
Chitose Sea Planes (Attacks; ASW Threat w/ Loss of Chitose)
Page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next  
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Axis & Allies ForuMINI Forum Index -> WAS General Discussion -> WAS Rules Clarification
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject:  Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Smile Wink Genetics are hard to overcome.

However, please before you go, when is the ASW Threat caused by a plane attack removed and why?
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
PostSat May 14, 2016 3:03 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Capt. Strange wrote:
Solomiranthius wrote:
Then answer this question: when does the ASW Threat go away, and why?


After a sub makes it's attack roll or if it doesn't attack at the end of the submarine phase.


Why? The rules do not say this.

(I am open to anyone answering this question: When is ASW Threat caused by attacking aircraft removed and why?)
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
PostSat May 14, 2016 3:04 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Capt. Strange

 Master of the Mystic Arts


Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Likes received: 467

Posts: 3313
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Solomiranthius wrote:
Capt. Strange wrote:
Solomiranthius wrote:
Then answer this question: when does the ASW Threat go away, and why?


After a sub makes it's attack roll or if it doesn't attack at the end of the submarine phase.


Why? The rules do not say this.


I could just say I watched RB play Weeds at Gencon and thats how he played it but I know that wouldn't sit with you so...

I would simply put forth that logically at the end of a complete turn they would be removed...  Where I assume you would naturally counter with that isn't how all other counters work etc etc.

So I'll just concede you're right the rules never mention removing them... ever.  Yet they do mention they stack.  So in effect sub are useless and none should ever be selected, when honestly you know this to not be true in the least.  You have out lawyered me with total circular, meaningless bullshit, are you happy now?  Is it any wonder why lawyers get a bad wrap Wink  Laughing  (Full disclosure my brother is also a lawyer)

Solo, there is no harm in admitting your wrong...  Wink
And with that I'm out.
PostSat May 14, 2016 3:24 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
I am positing that if you consider that the presence of the attacking ASW aircraft is what marks the ASW Threat (as is suggested in the flavor text), then it is consistent that with the removal of the ASW aircraft (either before or during the Air Return Phase) the ASW Threat also goes away.

But if RB used Chitose during GenCon and Chitose sunk before the Submarine Phase, and the threat its planes presented remained, then I would accept that as how he intended it to function. Smile

Also, I readily admit I am wrong once I am satisfied of that fact! Very Happy I am just not satisfied that I am wrong in this situation. Smile To me, everything fits with my explanation and there are few, if any, assumptions that have to be made that are not taken directly from the text of the ASW Threat section.
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
PostSat May 14, 2016 3:46 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Vetnor

 Find a crew. Find a job. Keep on flying.

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Likes received: 91

Posts: 2369
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Capt. Strange wrote:
Solomiranthius wrote:
Capt. Strange wrote:
Solomiranthius wrote:
Then answer this question: when does the ASW Threat go away, and why?


After a sub makes it's attack roll or if it doesn't attack at the end of the submarine phase.


Why? The rules do not say this.


So I'll just concede you're right the rules never mention removing them... ever.  Yet they do mention they stack.


Actually you're right the rules never mention removing them and they stack so Solo's right, they don't get removed at all so........

If two(2) aircraft attack a sub in turn 1 the sub would get 2 less torp die.

If the same two(2) aircraft attack the sub in turn 2 the sub would get 4 less torp die.

If the same two(2) aircraft attack the sub in turn 3 the sub would get 6 less torp die.

If the same two(2) aircraft attack the sub in turn 4 the sub would get 8 less torp die.

If the same two(2) aircraft attack the sub in turn 5 the sub would get 10 less torp die.

This is such a revelation! I now have the answer to U-Boat swarms.
I think I'll never use subs again.
_________________

Command your fleet to victory.
PostSat May 14, 2016 3:49 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Rolling Eyes
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
PostSat May 14, 2016 3:55 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Vetnor

 Find a crew. Find a job. Keep on flying.

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Likes received: 91

Posts: 2369
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Solomiranthius wrote:
Then answer this question: when does the ASW Threat go away, and why?


After the resolution of the subs attack, or if it chooses not to attack, the end of the phase.
Why - It's only logical.

However as it's been pointed out the rules don't say when to remove the tokens (which keep track of attacks and not the aircraft) so does this mean they carry over to the next turn?
_________________

Command your fleet to victory.
PostSat May 14, 2016 4:05 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Quote:
However as it's been pointed out the rules don't say when to remove the tokens (which keep track of attacks and not the aircraft) so does this mean they carry over to the next turn?


Wrong. Tokens can be used instead of aircraft in tracking, but in doing so take the place of marking with the aircraft. The aircraft is the primary method in the rulebook and can be treated as such. So goes an aircraft, so goes a token. You can only have so many aircraft "straddle" a sub in a congested sector.

My explanation doesn't lead to ridiculous results, is consistent with the flavor text, identifies removal of threat timing, and is consistent with the clarifications for SAs/Effects.
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~


Last edited by Solomiranthius on Sat May 14, 2016 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
PostSat May 14, 2016 4:11 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Vetnor

 Find a crew. Find a job. Keep on flying.

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Likes received: 91

Posts: 2369
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Solomiranthius wrote:
I am positing that if you consider that the presence of the attacking ASW aircraft is what marks the ASW Threat.


No I don't consider the presence of the attacking aircraft marks the threat. I consider the attacks mark the threat as per the rules.
_________________

Command your fleet to victory.
PostSat May 14, 2016 4:11 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Vetnor

 Find a crew. Find a job. Keep on flying.

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Likes received: 91

Posts: 2369
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Solomiranthius wrote:
Quote:
However as it's been pointed out the rules don't say when to remove the tokens (which keep track of attacks and not the aircraft) so does this mean they carry over to the next turn?


Wrong. Tokens can be used instead of aircraft in tracking, but in doing so take the place of marking with the aircraft. The aircraft is the primary method in the rulebook and can be treated as such. So goes an aircraft, so goes a token. You can only have so many aircraft "straddle" a sub in a congested sector.

My explanation doesn't lead to ridiculous results, is consistent with the flavor text, identifies removal of threat timing, and is consistent with the clarifications for SAs/Effects.


Wrong. Aircraft or counters are used to keep track of ATTACKS
Just because a plane goes away doesn't mean it wasn't attacked, dice were rolled so it was attacked.


_________________

Command your fleet to victory.


Last edited by Vetnor on Sat May 14, 2016 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
PostSat May 14, 2016 4:17 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
ticat1

_
 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 15 Apr 2010
Likes received: 818

Posts: 10680
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
So if you have an enemy sub and two enemy surface ships and four of your own aircraft.

You use markers or straddling to show how many planes have attacked the sub vs how many attacked the surface ships
_________________

Qui Tangit Frangitur

To you, from failing hands we throw the torch; be yours to hold it high
           -John McCrae
PostSat May 14, 2016 4:24 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Vetnor

 Find a crew. Find a job. Keep on flying.

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Likes received: 91

Posts: 2369
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
I suggest you read the rules.

Anyway it's 1:00am here and I have to get up at 4:00am to find a spot to watch the AN-225 land at Perth Airport.
_________________

Command your fleet to victory.
PostSat May 14, 2016 4:28 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Vetnor wrote:
I suggest you read the rules.

Anyway it's 1:00am here and I have to get up at 4:00am to find a spot to watch the AN-225 land at Perth Airport.


Vetnor, don't be a condescending ass here, but have fun at the airport. Smile
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
PostSat May 14, 2016 4:37 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Vetnor

 Find a crew. Find a job. Keep on flying.

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Likes received: 91

Posts: 2369
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:2)  Like this post
Solomiranthius wrote:
Vetnor wrote:
I suggest you read the rules.

Anyway it's 1:00am here and I have to get up at 4:00am to find a spot to watch the AN-225 land at Perth Airport.


Vetnor, don't be a condescending ass here, but have fun at the airport. Smile


I take offence at that remark!
You're supposed to be a moderator and that's how you respond?
You must know you're wrong if you have to resort to insults.

This is just another example of the attitude problem that exists on this forum and you guys wonder why people are leaving.
_________________

Command your fleet to victory.
PostSat May 14, 2016 4:46 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
I was trying to be both poignant and lighthearted at the same time. But since that didn't work...

Vetnor wrote:
I suggest you read the rules.


That was condescending. That was rude. You know perfectly well I have "read the rules." I am arguing from the rules. If you want respect, show some.



Vetnor, I generally like you, so while we are clearly at odds in how "black and white" we see this issue of ASW Threat, we can both show the other respect.
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
PostSun May 15, 2016 12:48 am
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Grgbobe

 

Joined: 06 Jul 2011
Likes received: 124

Posts: 1392
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:1)  Like this post
Solo, I see you're entrenched in your opinion, so this is my last comment to clarify things.  

The flavor text of "The presence of ASW Ships and Aircraft interferes with a Submarine's ability to attack." does seem to say Aircraft must be present to provide threat.  However, the very next entry clarifies how Aircraft provide this threat, i.e. "Aircraft Attack".  That "Aircraft Attack" is predicated on the Aircraft being present to make the attack, not being present during the Submarine attack phase.

I think this is a situation where you need to follow what the rule explicitly says, not what it implies.  The rule explicitly says "...use a counter to keep track of Aircraft attacks."  It does not say "...use a counter to keep track of Aircraft attacks, but remove it if the Aircraft is no longer present during the Submarine Attack phase."  

In fact, because the "ASW Presence" portion of the ASW Threat rules explicitly does say "...enemy Ship...local or adjacent to the Submarine during the Submarine Attack phase.", if the designers meant for the presence of Aircraft to be a condition of threat, then they would have included it in the verbiage of the "Air Attack" rule.

But, whatever.  If you want to rule it your way in your group and everyone in your group accepts it that way, then cool.  In my group, it's the Aircraft attack that matters, not the presence of the Aircraft during the Submarine Attack phase.  This doesn't seem to be such a big issue that people should be feeling attacked for one opinion or the other.  

Grg
_________________
PostSun May 15, 2016 4:21 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Vetnor

 Find a crew. Find a job. Keep on flying.

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Likes received: 91

Posts: 2369
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Grgbobe wrote:
The rule explicitly says "...use a counter to keep track of Aircraft attacks."


Note it says to use the aircraft or counter to keep track of Aircraft attacks not attacking aircraft.

There's a big difference.
_________________

Command your fleet to victory.
PostSun May 15, 2016 4:33 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Vetnor

 Find a crew. Find a job. Keep on flying.

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Likes received: 91

Posts: 2369
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Solomiranthius wrote:
You know perfectly well I have "read the rules."


You may have read the rules but did you comprehend them?

Solomiranthius wrote:
I am arguing from the rules.


In fact you're arguing from your own interpretation of the rules not the RaW.
_________________

Command your fleet to victory.


Last edited by Vetnor on Sun May 15, 2016 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
PostSun May 15, 2016 4:40 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Vetnor

 Find a crew. Find a job. Keep on flying.

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Likes received: 91

Posts: 2369
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
I'm going to try one more time to explain the simplicity of this rule but not right now, it's 1:00am Monday morning here and I didn't get any sleep last night and spent the day at the airport, the AN-225 was amazing, so I'm very tired. I'm just glad I'm on holidays.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=...FQjCNGzcLauhs5J9z-Te3X2EZb1h9WcxQ
_________________

Command your fleet to victory.
PostSun May 15, 2016 4:44 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
bunyan

_
 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 21 Oct 2013
Likes received: 86

Posts: 5965
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
<picks up mic>

Looking at the rules with my wife. We both agree on the fact that a Submarine will receive an ASW threat because the rules state that for each attack from each plane to a sub, that sub will suffer a -1 penalty. This stays in effect even if the plane/marker is destroyed and the modification only goes away at the end of the turn. End of story.

<drops mic>


_________________
Club Atlantic President
PostSun May 15, 2016 5:37 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next



   Axis & Allies ForuMINI Forum Index » WAS General Discussion -> WAS Rules Clarification

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Editor's Choice
Forumini Generals
All AAM cards
All AAAF Cards
All War At Sea Cards
Forumini Admirals
A20 World Rankings
1. Jcmonson 1066
1. Bean965 1038
3. Vergilius 1024
WAS World Rankings
1. Admiral Wannabee 1240
2. mnnorthstars 1170
3. Azrael 1120
AAM World Rankings
1. Lil Snips 1096
2. Tripwire 1021
3. Kawolski 1010
Friends
Official WoTC site
Richard Baker's new Blog
Le Forum de A&ANM
Riverside Gaming
A&A Underground
Top posters
Brigman 42738
weedsrock2 36854
Flakstruk 35335
RAEVSKI 26750
firesdstny 26685
Asbestos 24554
SWO_Daddy 23223
Solomiranthius 19325
NeuralDream 18234
nrnstraswa 17161
herky80 16512
Lt_V 16301
jfkziegler 15353
Swished3 14762
carrion 14490
LcdrSwizzle 13698
packertim 13611
DaJudge 13360
mnnorthstars 12784
The_lucky_Y 12511
danaussie 12161
Shinnentai 11688
hokiepastor 10867


Forumini Newsletter
Issue #10 (Sep. 2013)
Issue #9 (Sep. 2012)
Issue #8 (Dec. 2011)
Issue #7 (Sep. 2011)
Issue #6 (Apr. 2011)
Issue #5 (Christmas 2010)
Issue #4 (Dec. 2010)
Issue #3 (Jul. 2010)
Issue #2 (Apr. 2010)
Issue #1 (Feb. 2010)


Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Theme by: :: Cosmic Distortion ::
Powered by phpBB © 2001 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum