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Chitose Sea Planes (Attacks; ASW Threat w/ Loss of Chitose)
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ticat1

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Post subject: Chitose Sea Planes (Attacks; ASW Threat w/ Loss of Chitose)  Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
OK, so I'm not sure this has ever occurred to anyone, but can the sea planes make an AA attack and then another in the Air Attack phase?  We're so used to mission selection that prevents this, but the Sea Planes don't have that, nor is it stated in the rest of the SA and the rules only say planes can't make multiple attacks on the same phase.

So unless I missed a clarification, I'm thinking they can!
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PostFri Apr 22, 2016 7:26 pm
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The War at Sea clarifications :

https://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/War_at_Sea_Clarifications.pdf

Says that an aircraft can attack only once per turn unless a special ability states otherwise. As Chitose's seaplanes are treated as aircraft, they'd have to choose which attack to make.
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PostFri Apr 22, 2016 7:59 pm
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I had forgotten that document. Must print
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PostFri Apr 22, 2016 8:06 pm
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Does ASW threat still apply from Chitose Seaplanes that have been removed from play before the sub phase?

For reference:

Solomiranthius wrote:
au64 wrote:
LcdrSwizzle wrote:
If she is sunk before the sub phase, the sub should not be suppressed. Her airwing is trying to figure out what to do now that "mother" is gone.


Just to play Devil's Advocate... as opposed to Fighter Cover or Scout Planes?

If you're concerned about that why not just give it the Seaplane Detachments and be done with it?


Fighter Cover takes place in the Air Phase, before any units are removed. So losing Fencer during the Air Phase has no impact on the already used SA for the Surface and Sub phases.

Scout Planes etc. for later phases is impacted by Chikuma/Tone/Gotland sinking during an earlier phase. Have your opponent sink Chikuma during the Air Phase, and only your Jill's are going to see that boost to torps. Your long lances and subs will be rolling normal.

Actually, that's a good question regarding Chitose and Seaplane Detachments. The SA reads:

Quote:
SEAPLANE DETACHMENTS: This unit comes with two seaplane detachments that function as Aircraft squadrons. Represent them using markers. When one is destroyed, remove its marker from play. When this unit is destroyed, remove both markers from play. The detachments can be based only on this ship.  
Seaplane squadrons: Armor 3, Vital Armor 6, Gunnery 1, Antiair 4, ASW 2, Bomb 4.


So, when Chitose is destroyed, the markers are removed from play. If they harassed a sub during their air attack step, does that harassment stick? I'd have to reread the rules for ASW harassment...

A PB aborted/destroyed during the Air Defense phase does not get to make ASW attacks.

A carrier-based bomber that makes ASW attacks that has its carrier sunk, does not make checks for the planes own destruction until the end of the turn after the surface and sub phases--so it is not destroyed until after its actions for ASW purposes matter.

From the Caio Duilio ruling... I think Chitose seaplane harassment may not carry over. Again, need to look at the rules, which I will do!


Solomiranthius wrote:
The rules are unclear, there is no official "marker" like a damage marker (I don't believe) and while it contemplates tracking, it's not patently clear in the face of the (awful) Caio Duilio clarification.

Quote:
ASW THREAT

The presence of ASW Ships and Aircraft interferes with a Submarine's ability to attack.

Aircraft Attack: A Submarine gets a -1 penalty to each Torpedo attack die for each enemy Aircraft that makes an ASW attack against that Submarine during the Air Attack phase. Place the Aircraft so its base straddles the targeted Submarine, or use a counter to keep track of Aircraft attacks.


The sensible approach would be to say the threat applies, but I could see an argument the other way.


The Caio Dulio/Scout Cruiser ruling (the link no longer works).

Quote:
http://community.wizards.com/go/t...-_WAS?post_id=506604701#506604701

"A special ability's effect ceases to function when the unit is removed from play. A unit is still in play while it has a face-down Destroyed marker. It's removed from play when a Destroyed marker is turned face up or some other effect causes the unit to be removed from the game.

This applies to Scout Cruiser and similar SAs.  If Tone is removed at the end of the Air Attack phase, then you're not entitled to any of its benefits in the Surface Attack phase.

I don't believe there are any exceptions to this, but if someone thinks of one, don't hesitate to bring it up.

Steve "

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Last edited by Solomiranthius on Mon May 02, 2016 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
PostMon May 02, 2016 6:56 pm
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I'm going to say yes, it counts because the detachment have attack values and are making actual attacks rather than the base unit making a nomination on an enemy unit.

The fact that the ASW that rule says to keep track of attacks made by aircraft indicates to me that it doesn't matter if the plane is no longer around by the time the sub phase comes around since it made its attack
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PostMon May 02, 2016 7:25 pm
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Solomiranthius wrote:
Does ASW threat still apply from Chitose Seaplanes that have been removed from play before the sub phase?


Based on the wording of the rulebook, the ASW threat from an aircraft is due to the attack being made... not merely being present.

By comparison, the ASW threat from a destroyer is due to the destroyer being present and not necessarily due to the attack being made.  Thus when the destroyer is sunk prior to the sub phase it no longer presents a threat.

Therefore a plane's (plane/token/etc) threat marker from an ASW attack would stay, whereas a ships ASW requires it to still be present.

Logically this makes sense (to me at least) as the sub can 'hear' the destroyers screws, but not necessarily a planes engines thus forcing it below the surface for a longer period.
PostMon May 02, 2016 7:25 pm
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All well and good, but the unit having caused "the effect" (being the ASW harassment) is gone--destroyed--out of the game, by the time the sub phase occurs.

We can quibble about the terminology, but the Seaplane Detachments are mobile Special Abilities--they are not quite individual units.

"A special ability's effect ceases to function when the unit is removed from play."

When Chitose is gone, so are its Special Abilities and their "effects."
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PostMon May 02, 2016 7:32 pm
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Off topic, do WotC clarifications remind you of the US Constitution? Horribly vague in some cases; strictly following results in unforeseen issues; drafters are no longer around to question; cannot be changed (or so hard to, it's not going to happen); yet we love the subject so we are stuck dealing with it everyday. Wink
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PostMon May 02, 2016 7:39 pm
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ok so walking through this...

Chitose sends out both seaplanes to attack subs in two different sectors.  Both Seaplanes are represented by markers.

During the air defense phase one marker is "shot down"... the marker is removed. No attack was made on the sub.

During the Air attack phase the second seaplane marker attacks a Sub and misses.  (An ASW threat marker is placed.)

During the surface phase the Chitose is sunk.  The second seaplane is removed per the SA.

At this time the ASW Threat (which is an effect of the Sea Plane) would also be removed.

During the Sub phase, the submarine would not be affected by the now removed threat, but would still be subject to any other ASW threats from other sources.

I think the key difference is that the Seaplane Detachments are indeed SA's of another unit and not an actual plane.  An actual plane unit cannot be destroyed after the Air Defense phase.

So (and this pains me to admit it this far)... Solo is not wrong.  Wink
PostMon May 02, 2016 7:50 pm
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The effect of the Sea Plane Detachment SA is that you've got a marker to place in the air mission phase.

The ASW threat rule says to keep track of attacks made against subs by air units.  

By rulebook definition, what's happening is clearly an attack and is not an effect of the SA.

A better question, IMHO, is does the Detachment cause the disruption at all since it only functions as an air squadron and isn't an actual aircraft by game definition.  They can't benefit from any boosts or bonuses so it can be argued that it can't issue ASW threat either.

I think it best to judge this by spirit of law rather than letter.  Letter is very sea saw and could go either way.  Spirit says yes, it threatens
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PostMon May 02, 2016 8:02 pm
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ticat1 wrote:
The effect of the Sea Plane Detachment SA is that you've got a marker to place in the air mission phase.

The ASW threat rule says to keep track of attacks made against subs by air units.  

By rulebook definition, what's happening is clearly an attack and is not an effect of the SA.

A better question, IMHO, is does the Detachment cause the disruption at all since it only functions as an air squadron and isn't an actual aircraft by game definition.  They can't benefit from any boosts or bonuses so it can be argued that it can't issue ASW threat either.

I think it best to judge this by spirit of law rather than letter.  Letter is very sea saw and could go either way.  Spirit says yes, it threatens


The "attack" is certainly an attack under page 58 of the rulebook. If the Seaplane causes damage, that damage stays even if Chitose goes down in the air phase (simultaneous part). The "threat" is most certainly an "effect" of the Seaplane special ability. A Special Ability that ends upon Chitose's destruction.

I didn't post it, but it matters. "The presence of ASW Ships and Aircraft interferes with a Submarine's ability to attack." The Aircraft is no longer present.

I don't want to be right here, but I think the result is no Seaplane, no threat.
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PostMon May 02, 2016 8:17 pm
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This is a tough one.  That first line does imply that the plane must both be in the sector and have made an ASW attack against the sub, judging by the rulebook definition of "presence" in ASW Presence

So yes, I will now agree that if the Chitose plane is removed before the Submarine Attack Phase, it no longer threatens the sub.
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PostMon May 02, 2016 8:43 pm
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ticat1 wrote:

The ASW threat rule says to keep track of attacks made against subs by air units.  


This is the key... the seaplane detachments are not an air unit.  They are a special ability that act as an air unit while in play.

Once the unit with the SA goes away, there is no longer an "air unit" to keep track of.

An important note is that if the attack caused damage to the sub, the sub would remain damaged and not be under a threat.  This is no different than if a destroyer used an ASW attack against a sub, hit, and was destroyed in the surface phase.
PostMon May 02, 2016 8:45 pm
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au64 wrote:
ticat1 wrote:

The ASW threat rule says to keep track of attacks made against subs by air units.  


This is the key... the seaplane detachments are not an air unit.  They are a special ability that act as an air unit while in play.


I have to disagree on this one. SA says "detachment functions as Aircraft squadron". So an attack from a detachment functions from the one from a squadron, which generates threat.

Quote:
An important note is that if the attack caused damage to the sub, the sub would remain damaged and not be under a threat.  This is no different than if a destroyer used an ASW attack against a sub, hit, and was destroyed in the surface phase.


I again disagree. The threat from aircraft squadrons occurs if they made an attack (even unsuccesful) on the sub, which they actually do in the considered scenario. Trigger=attack made.

If there was an effect (that I can't figure out) that would remove a regular plane from play before the sub phase, the threat would still apply, so I don't really see why it would be different for a Chitose.

To summarize my position, I say "treat threat from chitose detachment the same way as an aircraft."
PostMon May 09, 2016 9:36 pm
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ticat1 wrote:
The ASW threat rule says to keep track of attacks made against subs by air units.


Yes the rulebook says to keep track of attacks using markers not to keep track of aircraft.

It's irrelevant if the Chitose is sunk or not, it's seaplanes are treated as aircraft and if they made an attack against a sub then it's the attack that is kept track of not the aircraft or ship.
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PostTue May 10, 2016 12:48 am
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Again, the Rulebook also notes that it is the presence of these aircraft that generates threat, but the aircraft are removed from the game before the sub phase, and are therefore not present.

Think of it like:

COVERING FIRE: Whenever this unit attacks a Ship during the Surface Attack phase, during its next turn, that Ship gets -1 on each attack die when making Gunnery attack rolls against units other than this unit.

or

SCOUT CRUISER: At the beginning of your Air Attack step, you may choose an enemy Ship. Your units roll one extra attack die when making Bomb or Gunnery attacks against that Ship this turn.

From that language, there is no reason to believe that sinking Tone or Gotland during the Air Phase would remove the boost during the Surface Phase, but that is how the rules have been clarified by WotC. You lose the unit, you lose the effects of the SA. The planes and the ASW they generate by their attack AND presence is the SA/effect, which are both gone when Chitose sinks during the air or surface phase.
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PostTue May 10, 2016 4:43 pm
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Solomiranthius wrote:
Again, the Rulebook also notes that it is the presence of these aircraft that generates threat


Let's take a look at what the rulebook actually says.



ASW Presence is generated by a ship with an ASW value of 1 or more that is local or adjacent regardless if it attacks the sub or not.

Aircraft don't produce ASW Presence they produce Aircraft Attack and it's the attack that produces ASW Threat.
The rulebook also states that you keep track of the Aircraft Attack by using markers not the presence of the aircraft that made the attack.

Since the Chitose's seaplanes function as Aircraft it's their attack which produce ASW Threat not they're presence and if they attack a sub and then the Chitose is sunk after they attack the sub the ASW Threat has already been produced by the Aircraft Attack it is irrelevant if the planes are there or not.

In your explanations you keep calling the seaplane attacks an "Effect" of the SA. I think the seaplanes are the "Effect"of the SA and the seaplane attacks are "Attacks" not an Effect".

Also using the Tone, Gotland, Emily as an example is wrong because their "Effect" is to boost and are not "Attacks".
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PostThu May 12, 2016 8:11 pm
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Vetnor wrote:
Solomiranthius wrote:
Again, the Rulebook also notes that it is the presence of these aircraft that generates threat


Let's take a look at what the rulebook actually says.



ASW Presence is generated by a ship with an ASW value of 1 or more that is local or adjacent regardless if it attacks the sub or not.

Aircraft don't produce ASW Presence they produce Aircraft Attack and it's the attack that produces ASW Threat.
The rulebook also states that you keep track of the Aircraft Attack by using markers not the presence of the aircraft that made the attack.

Since the Chitose's seaplanes function as Aircraft it's their attack which produce ASW Threat not they're presence and if they attack a sub and then the Chitose is sunk after they attack the sub the ASW Threat has already been produced by the Aircraft Attack it is irrelevant if the planes are there or not.

In your explanations you keep calling the seaplane attacks an "Effect" of the SA. I think the seaplanes are the "Effect"of the SA and the seaplane attacks are "Attacks" not an Effect".

Also using the Tone, Gotland, Emily as an example is wrong because their "Effect" is to boost and are not "Attacks".


Yes, the mere presence of an Aircraft that did not attack does not produce ASW Threat. I did not say the mere presence did, although I can see where I could have been clearer. The Rulebook still notes that "The presence of ASW Ships and Aircraft interferes with a Submarine's ability to attack" as an introduction to the rest of the section.

Until Chitose was introduced, any Aircraft that made an attack during the Air Attack Phase would be present automatically during the Submarine Attack Phase. There was no mechanism for an aircraft to both attack and be destroyed and removed prior to the Submarine Attack Phase before Chitose.

The Seaplane and everything it does is an Effect of the SA. While some of Chitose's SA Effects become permanent before Chitose is destroyed (for example, damage caused by its Seaplanes--damage assigned before the removal of the unit), others are "future Effects" (for example, presence of the attacking ASW aircraft / ASW Threat generated by the attackign ASW aircraft) which terminate when Chitose is destroyed and removed from the game.

It is the Rulebook reference to "counters" that is irrelevant. The counter tracks the Effect (whether you want to call that the Attack or the ASW Threat generated by the Attack). The Effect is removed when the Seaplane is removed.

Perhaps Tone/Chikuma/Gotland is not the prime example, so let's again take Caio Duilio with Covering Fire or even Prinz Eugen with Crippling Salvo. Let's break it down as a comparison.

Attack Phase (Surface or Air respectively) Part 1:
A) Caio Duilio attacks Repulse. The Attack's Effect, Covering Fire, is triggered.
B) Prinz Eugen attacks and damages Jamaica. The Attack's Effect, Crippling Salvo is triggered.
C) Seaplane attacks Truculent. The Attack's Effect, ASW Threat, is triggered.
**Note, all of these Effects would have to be tracked somehow--by unit, counter or notation.

Attack Phase (Surface, Sub, or Air depending) Part 2:
A) Caio Duilio is damaged and destroyed. It is removed at the end of the Attack Phase.
B) Prinz Eugen is damaged and destroyed. It is removed at the end of the Attack Phase.
C) Chitose is damaged and destroyed, its Seaplanes are destroyed, it and its Seaplanes are removed at the end of the Attack Phase.

Phases or Turns after the above Attack Phase:
A, B, or C) The clarification to the Rules provides that once a unit is removed from the game, the Effects of its SAs cease to function in future phases or turns.

The Seaplane is an SA, but whether we look at the Seaplane itself or the ASW Threat it generated as the "Effect," either ceases to function once Chitose & its Seaplanes are removed. It is not at all like damage which is permanently applied immediately prior (or at the very least simultaneously) to the removal of the unit that caused the damage.

Some Effects are instantaneous and "irreversible" (Damage Control, Replenish Aircraft, etc. create an instantaneous condition that is separate from the Unit/SA). Other Effects are wholly dependent upon the Unit not being destroyed and removed, i.e., the presence of the unit (Covering Fire, Scout Planes, Crippling Salvo, Seaplanes--ASW Threat).

Unfortunately, the loss of the ASW Threat more seamlessly fits in with the Rules as interpreted and what "the rulebook actually says" in whole. The presence of an air unit during the Submarine Phase that attacked a sub during the Air Phase, causes ASW Threat. Air, Surface, and Sub Phases, while they would be intermingled in a real world situation, happen sequentially in game. When it's the sub's turn to attack, the sub is still threatened by the presence of an ASW plane that had attacked it previously. But with the loss of Chitose and the Seaplanes, those Seaplanes are no longer flying around when the sub goes to attack.

Moreover, and more importantly, the ASW Threat generated by an Attack is far more like the "Effect" of an SA than the damage caused by an Attack.
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PostThu May 12, 2016 9:51 pm
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Let's think about it in real life.  A sub wouldn't crash dive
Because of a plane flying around unless it was clear that it was going to attack.  But once it's charges are dropped, it's no longer a danger to attack, even if it's lingering in the area.  (Enter ASW pinpointer)

Destroyers, on the other hand, provide a far greater threat because they can pursue and have far more depth charges.

So I don't think that the plane has to also be in the area to cause threat.  It just has to attack
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PostThu May 12, 2016 10:19 pm
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Solomiranthius wrote:

The Seaplane is an SA, but whether we look at the Seaplane itself or the ASW Threat it generated as the "Effect," either ceases to function once Chitose & its Seaplanes are removed. It is not at all like damage which is permanently applied immediately prior (or at the very least simultaneously) to the removal of the unit that caused the damage.

Moreover, and more importantly, the ASW Threat generated by an Attack is far more like the "Effect" of an SA than the damage caused by an Attack.


I would strongly disagree with this.  

As long as the seaplane token has/had rolled an actual ASW attack the corresponding threat counter wouldn't be removed until after the sub shots.  It's not the presence of the aircraft at all, or the SA tokens in this case, its the actual airborne attack itself that gives the sub -1 Torp dice.

PostThu May 12, 2016 10:33 pm
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