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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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Post subject: most challanging fleet build question ever
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OK, this section of the forum hasn't really been taking off, I take it my previous posts may not have been challanging enough to stimulate lots of conversation. So here is the most challanging question ever.
On the other boards every time it was brought up most of us agreed that the convoy escort in a convoy scenario was in almost a no win situation considering that the enemy need only sink a few crappy ships to win. Someone please post thier ideal convoy escort fleet, any nation, set a point value, be as historical as you want. Perhaps by refining an escort fleet in the flames of this discussion board we can come up with one that stands a chance.
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 Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:50 am |
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Sinker of Battleships
AHF Bronze-Rated Trader
Posts: 856
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I would be happy to playtest, if someone has a good Idea. Here's my thoughts...
Princeton
St Lo
1x Barb
3xWildcat
2x Swordfish
3x Samuel B Roberts
That's with 100 points.
I think you really need a points advantage, i can think of dozens of fleets that can shred that. 
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WAS 64/64
39-45 36/60 |
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| Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:47 am |
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Chief of Air Group
Posts: 103
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Sheer guessing from me but from a historical stand point then the Baltimore, Boise, several Fletchers, and Princeton or perhaps Enterprise with a few Barbs thrown in.
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| Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:28 am |
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Pushing Plastic Ships in the Dakotas
Posts: 103
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For the most part, the Convoy mission has been deemed impossible by my gaming group, if playing with the convoy ship stats listed in the Advanced Rules (which, are NOT the stats of the liberty ship in the actual game, dispite what the rules seem to believe)
I've nearly beaten the senario, but since destroying the enemy surface fleet does not guarentee victory, only crossing the channel does the sub or two I usually miss get me every time.
However, if you try playing the convoy mission with Nordmarks (remove the ability to repair) the mission gets noteably more doable. The Nords can almost double as thier own escorts with thier guns, and while they are a slow 2, if you make the roll successfully, they get to move 2. Meaning the other side really does have to press to successfully complete the mission. Both times we've done it this way, the attacker has actually lost. |
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| Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:50 am |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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I like your build STB, but I would add the Baltimore somehow, with the barbs and a baltimore you would almost stand a chance against something like Scharnhorst, 3 Kondors, 5 Uboats.
I just don't know what to take out. I'll think some more.
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| Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:52 pm |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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OK, here's an attempt:
Baltimore - 18
St. Lo - 10
Swordfish x2 - 20
Sea Hurricane x4 - 20
Barb -12
SB Roberts x3 -18
That's 98, and not horrible, but not great looking either. Any suggestions?
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| Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:15 pm |
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Let me give it a try then.
Since we need to protect these ships and need not have any offensive capabilities, then we don't need battleships. We need anti-air and subs and certainly not destroyers that don't have the smokescreen S.A.
18 1x Baltimore, because it's a bargain and can pretend to be a battleship
36 3x Barbs
36 3x atlantas
9 1x Javelin
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total: 99
The 5 surface ships escort the 5 cargo ships interchangeably so as to use the smoke screen every time it's possible. The 3 cargo ships must survive air attacks, because they have atlantas. The 1 may survive thanks to smoke. The last one will probably not be saved by baltimore's antiair. The 3 barbs must make the enemy surface ships more cautious and the baltimore should be able to take out one or two enemy destroyers, so as to leave the field open for the barbs.
In theory anyway. Not that I tried it. More like a  .
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My new blog, specialised in the military equipment of Greece (1821-today). |
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| Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:32 pm |
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Resident U-Head
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Try the escort mission vs a pure U-510 Wolfpack (with maybe one or two Kondors, but no more), using the Hidden Submarine rules from the older forum...
...it's FUN 
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| Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:22 pm |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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Fun like you building a gigantic lego pirate ship and then having someone else destroy it pointlessly before you get a chance to play with it.
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| Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:39 pm |
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Resident U-Head
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Eh, read the post again 
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| Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:30 pm |
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Sinker of Battleships
AHF Bronze-Rated Trader
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Good Build! One problem- the Bismark or Yamato will murder them all, and 5 kondors will win on the first turn. You need fighters. | NeuralDream wrote: | Let me give it a try then.
Since we need to protect these ships and need not have any offensive capabilities, then we don't need battleships. We need anti-air and subs and certainly not destroyers that don't have the smokescreen S.A.
18 1x Baltimore, because it's a bargain and can pretend to be a battleship
36 3x Barbs
36 3x atlantas
9 1x Javelin
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total: 99
The 5 surface ships escort the 5 cargo ships interchangeably so as to use the smoke screen every time it's possible. The 3 cargo ships must survive air attacks, because they have atlantas. The 1 may survive thanks to smoke. The last one will probably not be saved by baltimore's antiair. The 3 barbs must make the enemy surface ships more cautious and the baltimore should be able to take out one or two enemy destroyers, so as to leave the field open for the barbs.
In theory anyway. Not that I tried it. More like a . |
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WAS 64/64
39-45 36/60 |
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| Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:35 pm |
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I´try it with a 2oo Point total IJN build :
2x Shoho (18p)
2x Zeke (12p)
5x Yukikaze (60p)
2x Kongo (70p)
2x Zeke (land based) (12p)
2x I-19 (26p)
198 point total
maybe some weakness against air heavy builds but the AA of the Kongo and even the Yukikaze should make some abort.
against the BB heavvy we van use the whole long lance power and some lucky hits from the I 19´s and in case of emergency the Kongo´s can made a banzai run and trade it out.
sub heavvys should be stopped by the yukikazes and the I 19´s
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| Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:18 pm |
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Pushing Plastic Ships in the Dakotas
Posts: 103
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Well what the hell. I'll throw my weight at it.
First off - it would depend on who I was playing. Japanese, German or British (I assume my fleet will be Americans because well.. thats pretty much everything I got). Each has different strengths to play to so each requires a tweaked build.
As stated earlier, I have never successfully defended a convoy, but I've blown plenty out of the water. I'll start with a build to combat the pre-eminent convoy raiders, the Germans.
2x PBY Catalinas - 14 points
1x Wildcat - 7 points
2x Devistators 9 points
1x Dauntless - 13 points
1x Princeton - 16 points
2x Boise - 26 points
1x Sammy B - 6 points
Total - 100 points.
While short on heavy guns, the pair of boises can stand up to even a Graf Spee or two with a little luck, and have more then enough in guns to take on any other lighter ships.
The Princeton gives you a nice rotation base. If the player brings stukas, you can re-base the wildcat to the princeton and use its Cap ability to be where you need to be, if you keep the fleet set up well and moving.
The Daunts give you enough punch to threaten a battleship, and while Devistators are meat against most fleets, the Germans don't have any fighters so with careful placement, and Catalina support they can be a horrible wake up call to the Sharnhorst, or simply trouble for the Bismarck.
If the German goes sub heavy, the Catalinas, Devistators and the Sammy B can go to work blowing them out of the water.
Its not perfect, and is not particularly well suited to fight off the Brits or the Japanese - though it would have a chance with the Brits - I think its a pretty balanced build. I might have to give it a try this week.
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| Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:44 pm |
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Sinker of Battleships
AHF Bronze-Rated Trader
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Excellent build! That actually might work.
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WAS 64/64
39-45 36/60 |
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| Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:06 pm |
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Forum Administrator
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I have tried running a variety of different builds (including those suggested here) through the convoy scenario against a German fleet, and not once has the convoy managed to get through successfully, or even come close. Typically three ships have been destroyed by turn three. It seems to me that without absurdly lucky dice rolling, the convoy scenario is pretty much impossible.
So, my question is this - what do people do in order to even up the convoy scenario and make it possible to win? |
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| Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:53 pm |
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Pushing Plastic Ships in the Dakotas
Posts: 103
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As I posted earlier, subsituting Nordmarks will generally make it more possible. The biggest problem however with the convoy ships is thier vital armour. At a whopping 4, pretty much anything can vital them more often then not. Increasing the Vital armour to 7 (like the Nordmarks)will give them a little more survivablity.
The other thing I'd do is make the senario require only a single convoy ship gets across. While this may sound like it defeats the purpose, at least from the American or British side, this was very true, especially early in the war. The Liberty Ships are an excellent example of the US of A using the old methood of swamping. If we build our ships fast enough, it won't matter how many they sink! Some will get through! It worked. Hell at one point the shipyards were able to finish about a Liberty Ship a day at thier fastest rate. (granted, Liberty Ships un-refitted weren't overly seaworthy, since they had a bad habit of splitting in half while underway (but it worked til we were able to start getting really successful at Subhunting)
Lastly, I'd increase the AA to a still paltry, but better coverage then 3 of 5.
I think that would still make the convoy mission difficult, but not outright impossible.
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| Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:24 pm |
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Forum Administrator
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| Thanks. I'll try out those suggestions and see if they help. |
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| Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:55 pm |
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AHF Silver-Rated Trader
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I think for the convoy scenario to be successful the side with the convoy needs to get bonus points or special rules to help balance it. We have never had a successful run with even points.
The more points you give the attackers the harder it gets for the defenders |
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| Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:00 pm |
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Forum Administrator
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| Thus far, the most difficult unit for me to beat has been the Kondor. That anti-ship missile is pretty much goodnight for any convoy ship it goes off at, and it's very hard to defend against, especially if you lose initiative. Even if you stack decent anti-air ships together with your convoy ships, the anti-ship missile will still get them. It's quite powerful. |
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| Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:02 pm |
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Pushing Plastic Ships in the Dakotas
Posts: 103
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While it is true that the Kondor can be a real threat, it can only be used once with its antiship missle, and proper use of a fighter can if not negate it, then generally handle it. The biggest problem with the anti-ship missle, as with virtually anything else that's firing on the convoy ships is that they're just so damned easy to sink with a vital armour crack.
Anyway, I'm gonna have to try some stuff this weekend. If I come up with a good set of 'revised' rules that seem to give the Convoy a snowballs chance in hell, I'll make sure to post em.
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| Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:33 pm |
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