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Solomiranthius

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Thanks for the comments! I've been lax with this recently since I've been finishing up classes and looking for a job. Hopefully I'll have some more free time soon and give the list the attention it deserves. For now I'll shoot out a quick response to everyone who has posted.

LcdrSwizzle - (great job btw)

Based on everything you have listed, I'd agree that S-H should be 18 (or even 19) points. Despite the lower AA, worse seconds and slow speed compared to the other ships, I'm valuing early deployment slightly higher. Being able to bring a Scheer to the front lines, or even a close escort + Vainamoinen, makes up for the neutered AA. I'm tempted to go 19 just because of how S-H can work with other ships (the DD or cruiser escort, Vainamoinen, San Giorgio if you are playing Axis, Atlantis) to increase its potency.

As to Scharnhorst, I'd agree that the card might need a complete overhaul, but making it a twin of Gneisenau would make us ask, why have both? I'm leaning towards keeping this list to a simple as compared to changes to the entire unit.

Andypalmer -

Swordfish Mk. II - the problem with this unit (and Fi 167) is they are practically unplayable at the current cost. Unfortunately, Wizards seems to think they are priced fairly accurately having released Fi 167 at 10 points, and then the Swordfish Mk. I at 9 points. I think that whole torp bomber group needs to be recosted to make them playable.

Normally I wouldn't advocate changing a whole "class" of units like this, but I've never used these planes and never expect to at their current costs. I want to see them at costs where people might actually decide to throw one or two in.

The best comparison for the group is the IJN Betty's (officially at 6 points each). Fi 167 is practically a G4M "Betty" stat wise, but deserves at least one more point b/c of the extra torp and another point because it can be based on a carrier and benefit from expert abilities. If we go with the assumption that recosting G4M to 5 is appropriate, then Fi 167 should be recosted to 7.

The Mk. II might then be recosted to 7 points. 3 ASW and 3 torps is great, but with armor 3 rather than 4, it will be even harder to get through. "Lucky Hit" could be a game changer, but it has to get through a German BB's AA attack and score a 6. Not an easy thing to do - the plane is just too fragile. It is fairly comparable to the Fi 167 overall and should be costed as such.

The Mk. I should then be reduced to 8 points. With BB killer, the Mk. I is a Mk. II against BBs (minus the Lucky Hit). What will drive the cost up is deceptive target. A point above the recosted Mk. II recognizes the Mk. I's positive and negative differences.

Koln v. Karlsruhe (forgive the lack of umlauts). I tend to agree with both you and fredmiracle. It's incredibly hard to value these 10ish point cruisers. Flotilla leader makes Karlsruhe a huge target (if your opponent didn't bring a smoker fleet), and the ease of sinking Karlsuhe v. San Fransisco or Jamaica might make 10 points reasonable. Fredmiracle is right though that Koln, even with Lead the Attack 2, gains little over her sisters. I think it is fair to have the entire Konigsberg class valued at 10 points.

Halifax - the only purpose Halifax and Liberator have is to attack light cruisers and subs. It's hard to value the differences between the two planes, but Liberator might be worth more with Excellent Endurance. Given the choice between Halifax and Liberator, I'd always choose Liberator (as the better ASW plane), which, while not scientific, makes recosting Halifax to 5 seem appropriate. I'm tempted to recost both to 5 points, but I'm curious what others think.

WASISFUN - thanks! Fixed it.
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PostThu Apr 26, 2012 9:09 pm
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Admiral Duncan

 
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Any chance of a re-costing for Mogami please?
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PostTue May 15, 2012 11:25 am
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MattCox7

 

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Recosting of the F4U-1D?
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PostTue May 15, 2012 9:47 pm
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LcdrSwizzle

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Fred, are you editing your first post in this thread with what we bring? It would make it easy to print out and use if you did ... <big-eyed smile> Please?

<ahem>
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PostThu May 24, 2012 6:29 pm
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LcdrSwizzle

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Solomiranthius wrote:


LcdrSwizzle - (great job btw) ... As to Scharnhorst, I'd agree that the card might need a complete overhaul, but making it a twin of Gneisenau would make us ask, why have both? I'm leaning towards keeping this list to a simple as compared to changes to the entire unit.



Well, ok. I understand not wanting 2 IDENTICAL ships. However, I think Scharnhorst does deserve Torpedo Defense. Yet, to keep her different, I bring up a possible compromise?

Instead of giving Scharnhorst Long Shot 6, how about giving her either Harassing Fire 5 or Harassing Fire 6?

"While undamaged, this unit can make range-5 (or 6?) main Gunnery attacks using its range-3 attack value. It only scores hits on a 6 when using this ability."

Neither one is game breaking, as it can not be used against destroyers anyways.
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PostMon Oct 08, 2012 1:40 pm
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The_lucky_Y

 

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LS6 with carrier as legal target instead of battleship will fit better,

revised set 1 units link is in my signature
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PostSat Dec 22, 2012 3:34 pm
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LcdrSwizzle

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The_lucky_Y wrote:
LS6 with carrier as legal target instead of battleship will fit better,

revised set 1 units link is in my signature


Good call Lucky, I forgot to mention that part. Limit it to carriers so it's not overwhelming on cruisers. Nice call!
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PostSat Dec 22, 2012 7:03 pm
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johnsnelling

 

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Still the best recosting list ever made. Thanks.
PostThu Feb 14, 2013 2:22 pm
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Azrael

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This isn't so much a recosting but the condor should never have had the asm that was the do217's deal and now that we have it, removing the asm off the condor balances it and makes it properly costed and the game less cheesy.

Otherwise the condor should be a minimum 8pts.
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PostTue Apr 23, 2013 11:16 pm
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In need of recost

George 10
Ugolina Vivaldi 7
Luca tariga 7
Fw190 could easily be 8
hornet
P-40 to 6
Richelieu could be 55 easy
south Dakota is undercosted
P-38 could easily be 8

Aux's and mtb's as a whole are overpriced and there is a point curve skewing on bb's as they get more powerful.

But I realize this is a conservative list in the op which is good this is just my .02
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PostTue Apr 23, 2013 11:38 pm
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Flakstruk

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1942 on the FW190 is worth a point especially when it's only up against martlet /hurricane / d520s
PostWed Apr 24, 2013 12:29 am
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Flakstruk wrote:
1942 on the FW190 is worth a point especially when it's only up against martlet /hurricane / d520s


Yeah maybe it is worth its 9 but the bf109 just seems like such a better deal and the corsair at 10 is much more effective since advanced fighter and escort work great together while the fw190's abilities don't.  Plus the planes you mentioned are carrier capable and can benefit from edf.

The seafire seems way out of whack in comparison its the perfect defensive fighter at 8 and carrier capable adding a point to it seems easy for balance.

And tirpitz could be a 56 .
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PostWed Apr 24, 2013 5:09 pm
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MattCox7 wrote:
Recosting of the F4U-1D?


Shocked umm no... and if it had to be recosted its closer to 15 then 13
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PostSat May 04, 2013 1:46 pm
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A to unit that desperately needs a recost is Shinano it is simply too expensive for what it does and its lack of good exp sa's for the cost ensures it rarely hits the table I think you could have it at 25 pts and people still wouldn't bring it.

Ironically its best use is a carrier durable enough to go into sub infested waters to grab an objective.
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PostSat Oct 12, 2013 10:08 am
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Toyama

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As this is stickied, i'm interested in the actual and current status of this recosting project:

- is this a general agreed-upon recosting list?
- is the listing in the first post up-to-date, or are recost suggestions throughout the thread valid?
- shouldn't we (Forumini) come with a definite and (semi-)official listing, now that no more official WotC sets are to be expected?
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PostSat Dec 28, 2013 7:15 pm
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Solomiranthius

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I kind of got busy and haven't looked at this in awhile. I think we might have a very hard time getting people to agree on a recost for certain units if it was a forum-wide project. (And this is different than say, a restat where Ise and Scharnhorst would get TD or Baltimore lose it--I think that would be far harder and more troublesome).

But maybe...

Step 1: a nomination of all the units that need recosting (down or up--up is the hard part).
Step 2: a vote to see whether there is actually consensus that those nominated units need a change (I have an idea for the format that I think would work well).
Step 3: figuring out what the cost of the units with cost-change consensus should be.
Step 4: making nice looking cards with only the cost changed
Step 5: speaking with SWO or others who have gotten custom cards printed for a smaller number of people and working out a way to get that done for those interested.

It might be possible. At the very least we could probably end up with a set of cards that can be put into sleeves or binders and used by local gaming groups to get these units in.
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PostTue Feb 04, 2014 10:32 pm
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Admiral Woodside

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Solomiranthius wrote:
I kind of got busy and haven't looked at this in awhile. I think we might have a very hard time getting people to agree on a recost for certain units if it was a forum-wide project. (And this is different than say, a restat where Ise and Scharnhorst would get TD or Baltimore lose it--I think that would be far harder and more troublesome).

But maybe...

Step 1: a nomination of all the units that need recosting (down or up--up is the hard part).
Step 2: a vote to see whether there is actually consensus that those nominated units need a change (I have an idea for the format that I think would work well).
Step 3: figuring out what the cost of the units with cost-change consensus should be.
Step 4: making nice looking cards with only the cost changed
Step 5: speaking with SWO or others who have gotten custom cards printed for a smaller number of people and working out a way to get that done for those interested.

It might be possible. At the very least we could probably end up with a set of cards that can be put into sleeves or binders and used by local gaming groups to get these units in.


+1

I like it. Perhaps you could also consider my idea that we should start with a thread for deck 2 (or even deck 1 to confirm The_lucky_Y's cards (yes including the Baltimore with TP instead of TD as a special case outside of the recosting only model, which possibly most would agree about)), and when that is sorted move on to deck 3, etc. That would reduce the breadth of cards to consider at any one time and would likely prevent forgetting about some marginal card that should still be adjusted. Even while the 6 threads are being done sequentially, there may be some feedback that might cause an older deck thread to get bumped up to current for a card that only comes into light based on power creep cards in later decks. Then when all the 6 threads are done, there could be a final cut thread that would determine the cards to recost. It seems like to me it should fit into one recost deck of 72 cards. Can't say for sure, but the game is pretty good even in its present state. It is just a shame about all the cards we have left behind, and about all the old broken cards that have remained as a nuisance. If we can't get to a 72 card deck, I can certainly think of one card in the first two sea gods decks that could be added, i.e., give HMS Vanguard its VT fuses for crying out loud. Wink Sorry, I couldn't resist venting that because it bothers me so very much. Confused

Cheers,

Admiral Woodside
PostWed Feb 05, 2014 11:53 am
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Flakstruk

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I think the only way to do this is to start with set 1, card1 and give each and every unit a statistical assessment. Perception is just as powerful as fact and we might fight that units we're convinced are undercosted are in fact simply poorly matched to a navies overall strengths.

It also distinctly avoids favouritism- each unit gets the same analysis.
PostWed Feb 05, 2014 12:08 pm
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Admiral Woodside

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Flakstruk wrote:
I think the only way to do this is to start with set 1, card1 and give each and every unit a statistical assessment. Perception is just as powerful as fact and we might fight that units we're convinced are undercosted are in fact simply poorly matched to a navies overall strengths.

It also distinctly avoids favouritism- each unit gets the same analysis.


I am right there with you on starting with set 1, but gees, that would take forever to re-evaluate the costing of every single card! Shocked Difficult to do IMO. And I think there will be enough knowledge and agreement on the majority of cards that we would be able to focus on the truly needy cards. Otherwise it might descend into nit picking over single points for every single card. Invariably, there will be people pointing out the framework for point costing and marginal cards will not seem so bad after all. I am talking here of cards off by a couple or more points for the most part, but there may still be cards that are broken which are off by only one point, but those would be exceptional.

On the other hand, if a complete redoing of every single one of the card's armament and cost were done, that would be way cool. It would be a whole new game. It would be a tough task to do though.

Anyway, in terms of cards on the list in this thread, it seems to me if you are going to cost the Swordfish Mk II down to 8 from 10, then you have to recost the Swordfish Mk I down to 7 from 9 as well. Or instead move them both down by 1 only. Also if both Swordfishes are reduced by 1 point, then I would reduce the KM Fi167 by 1 pt from 10 down to 9 pts. I think all three of the biplane TB do need to be reduced, but they should all be brought down in proportion to each other, either all down 1 point or all down 2 points.

All up, the list is a good start, but there are a lot of missing units now that the game has progressed. Needs a new start, deck by deck IMO.

Cheers,

Admiral Woodside
PostWed Feb 05, 2014 12:28 pm
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Capt Bridge

 

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So this thread hasn't had activity in a long time. Being new to this I am trying to figure out the ebbs and flows that this game has gone through over the years.

So my question about recosting...how many of you are doing it? Is there a general consensus on what units need recosting? How are you doing it (labels)?

PostFri Apr 29, 2016 5:39 am
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