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fredmiracle

 

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Post subject: Recosting List  Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Hi all,

I wasn't completely satisfied with the revised Set 1 cards developed collectively last year. Personally I want a recosting list only. This is an attempt to create one. It has certainly benefitted from the revised cards effort, although differs in a couple of spots.

My primary objective with this exercise is to make every unit, in all sets, playable in a competitive gaming environment; that is, I can take any unit--at least in certain gameplans or builds--without feeling I am shooting myself in the foot competitively. My secondary goal is to be conservative--making as few and as small changes as possible.

This does not assume any year restrictions, but does assume single-nation fleets (with Commonwealth included in UK). If you play all-Allies vs. all-Axis some units may remain unplayable.

This is a tough exercise, and much depends on how one values specific stats and abilities, one's style of play, etc. This list is my best shot. Comments welcome!


    WS/1-HMAS Canberra: 12 Points (was 15) - Comparable to Exeter; more guns but lacks Determination.
    WS/2-HMAS Sydney: 13 Points (was 14) - Equivalent to Leander in non-convoy scenarios; should have the same price.
    WS/3-Gloire: 13 Points (was 14) - Obsoleted by Suffren, at a point lower there is some reason to take her.
    WS/6-HMS Ajax: 12 Points (was 13) - At the same price, Sydney and Leander are better than Ajax. Pursuit Ship is rarely useful. At 12, Exeter and Canberra will still be different, but competitive options.
    WS/9-HMS Hood: 42 Points (was 48) - Fatal Flaw gives her an effective VA of somewhere around 11.5. Relative to Warspite, a reasonable cost might be 43/44, relative to Repulse, maybe 37/38.
    WS/14-Swordfish Mk II: 8 Points (was 10) - Compared to TBF-1, it has 2.5 less VA, 2 less armor, no Alternate Payload, while gaining 1 torpedo and Lucky Hit. Eight points is a conservative recosting.
    WS/20-TBD Devastator: 7 Points (was 9) - Compared to TBF-1, it has 2.5 less VA, 1 less ASW, 1 less armor and no Alternate Payload. 2 point lower cost is justified.
    WS/33-USS Washington: 55 Points (was 56) - 1 Flag has little value, especially in US fleets. 9 Armor on USS Massachusetts is almost always more compelling, making Washington all but obsolete.
    WS/34-Admiral Graf Spee: 20 Points (was 21) - Swap Scheer and Graf Spee costs to make Graf Spee playable.
    WS/38-Koln: 10 Points (was 11) - In practical terms, Lead the Attack just tends to get Koln killed quicker. Swap Karlsruhe and Koln to price Flotilla Leader more appropriately and make Koln playable.
    WS/44-Bolzano: 14 Points (was 18) - A point more than Garibaldi; better guns, worse armor, lacking Cruiser Hunter and Drive Off, but given a slight premium for Flank Speed.
    WS/45-Duca D’Aosta: 11 Points (was 12) - Between Garibaldi and Zara, D’Aosta has effectively been superseded.
    WS/51-B5N2 “Kate”: 11 Points (was 13) - Compared to TBF-1 Avenger, it gains a torpedo, but loses 1.5 VA and ASW. Ten points could be justified, but that third torpedo is valuable.
    WS/53-G4M "Betty": 5 Points (was 6) - Alternate payload is useful, but as 'air filler' G4M1 is better, and Bettys in general just have too little staying power.
    WS/55-Jintsu: 15 Points (was 19) - Still one point more than the Yahagi, which is perhaps questionable, but +1 LL torpedo at most ranges is undeniably valuable.
    WS/58-Myoko: 19 Points (was 24) - Worse than Haguro in all respects except Flag 1, but at this price at least a couple of points cheaper than Haguro recosted at 21. Nachi at equal price trades off Flag 1 and Night Fighter to get Cruiser Killer.
    WS/62-Type 13 Subchaser: 2 Points (was 4) - It is hard to make this unit playable at any price, but more likely to have some role at 2 points.
    WS/64-Yukikaze: 11 Points (was 12) - Must at least cost the same as Isokaze, which has Sub Hunter and 5 ASW.
    TF/10-Halifax GR Mk. V: 5 Points (was 6) - Generally impotent except for air filler and sub harrassment.
    TF/22-USS California: 44 Points (was 45) - When compared to USS Tennessee, I do not see it as ever compelling to pay 2 points for 1 Flag, especially in a US fleet. USS Arizona complicates California further.
    TF/33-Admiral Scheer: 21 Points (was 20) - Swap Scheer and Graf Spee costs to make Graf Spee playable.
    TF/36-Karlsruhe: 11 Points (was 10) - Swap Karlsruhe and Koln to price Flotilla Leader more appropriately and make Koln playable.
    TF/53-Haruna: 37 Points (was 38) - Bombard is never used. As compared to Kongo, 2 point bump and trading off 1 Flag is a sufficient price for Evade Bombs.
    TF/60-Zuikaku: 20 Points (was 22) - Airfield Strike is of extremely limited value. To get it, Zuikaku already gives up Expert Bomber 2 and 1 Flag from Shokaku—it shouldn’t also cost 2 more points.
    NS/7-Haguro: 21 Points (was 18) - As Rich Baker noted, this unit was underpriced, and has the potential to undermine values on all other Japanese cruisers.
PostMon Mar 29, 2010 6:33 pm
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Greyh Seer

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Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Great post!  I love how you took simple logic and applied it to only points!  It makes for a much easier transition and it simple and easy to use!
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PostMon Mar 29, 2010 6:49 pm
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Diamondback

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Move to provisionally adopt as "The Fix", depending on combat-testing results.
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PostMon Mar 29, 2010 7:10 pm
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danaussie

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Awesome, I'll be more than likely using this as a guide to recost alot of our aircraft. Good Job! Cheers mate!!!! Wink
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PostMon Mar 29, 2010 9:35 pm
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jfkziegler

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I actually like this list.  Most of the stats seem very well thought out.
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PostMon Mar 29, 2010 11:16 pm
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RaySpruance

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I like this recosting list as well.
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PostTue Mar 30, 2010 12:47 am
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IJN Fuso

 

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Very well done.  In my group, we've started playing recosts - although more limited than yor list.  Funny thing is our units tend to agree with yours - Swordfish at 8, Canberra at 12, Hood at 42.  Things that are 1 off.  Jintsu at 14 (you post 15) and Balzano at 15 (you post 14), Myoko at 20 (you post 19)

Minor differences to be sure.  I like your list a lot .  Its more extensive and includes the new starter units.  Very nice job indeed!
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Last edited by IJN Fuso on Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
PostTue Mar 30, 2010 2:47 pm
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Snippersly

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YES!!!!   Finally someone else believes me!  

Great list.  I'm recosting our units also for our table.  Looks like we have a lot of the same units on our lists.  Great work!  Great List!
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PostTue Mar 30, 2010 4:08 pm
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USS Yorktown (CV-5)

 

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Good effort.

I have made some recosting drafts myself, I agree with pretty much all the changes.

What I like about recosting is that you can really put together a fleet of your favorite units without handicapping yourself as long as the unit combo is solid.

My collection is pretty big (almost every unit made so far) but most of them never leave the box. Much of my playing nowadays is done with some kind of draft method to ensure that there are some non-optimal units in the mix and every unit´s number could come up.
PostFri Apr 02, 2010 11:22 pm
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Jeffrey5665

 

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Thanks for the list, I've been working one up for some time now, but have found the task tedious & therefore tough to get motivated for.

One thing I have that I didn't see on yours was the Akagi.  When I compared her to the Sara, I felt even with Flag, a gross injustice had been served.  Did you consider her at all?
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PostSat Apr 03, 2010 3:13 am
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fredmiracle

 

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Jeffrey5665 wrote:

One thing I have that I didn't see on yours was the Akagi.  When I compared her to the Sara, I felt even with Flag, a gross injustice had been served.  Did you consider her at all?


I did consider her a bit, based on the fact that personally, I rarely pay the 7 point premium for Akagi over the other Japanese fleet carriers--especially now that Soryu provides a different source for Expert Torpedoes, as well as Sneak Attack.

But holding myself to conservative standards, I came to the conclusion that I didn't consider Akagi "unplayable." There is definitely a benefit to having a carrier that can stand her ground on the middle of the map. She just doesn't happen to fit my style of play as well.

I didn't do too much cross-national comparison, so I was mostly looking at whether one could, as an IJN player, justify buying Akagi, at least in certain builds or tactical styles. Given her unique attributes compared to other IJN carriers (Flag 2, armor 5, VA 11, big guns, secondaries), and the fact that Akagi seems to be pretty popular with players, it seemed she was "good enough."

I think she's in the ballpark with Saratoga. I'd give Akagi +2 or +3 for Flag-2, +1 for AA, -3 or -4 for VA and HP, and -1 for guns. So Akagi is perhaps 1-2 points over-costed. But both are viable options within their respective navies (in my manifestly fallable opinion Smile )
PostSat Apr 03, 2010 5:51 am
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USS Yorktown (CV-5)

 

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I had Akagi downcosted to 25, but my list is slightly less conservative than yours.
PostSat Apr 03, 2010 8:48 am
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IJN Fuso

 

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fredmiracle wrote:


I didn't do too much cross-national comparison, so I was mostly looking at whether one could, as an IJN player, justify buying Akagi, at least in certain builds or tactical styles. Given her unique attributes compared to other IJN carriers (Flag 2, armor 5, VA 11, big guns, secondaries), and the fact that Akagi seems to be pretty popular with players, it seemed she was "good enough."



I like your logic.  Balaning units accross all nations makes the task unweildy.  But compared to units of the same nationality, you have a good baseline.  Its not as if you will likely be choosing to bring Saratoga or Akagi.  But you will have to decide between Akagi or Shokaku.
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PostMon Apr 05, 2010 1:54 pm
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Run Silent

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good job
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PostTue Apr 06, 2010 9:52 pm
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Asbestos

 
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What, no recosting for the MTB? Wink
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PostTue Apr 06, 2010 11:21 pm
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Stealth7

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I'd really have to add:
WS/47-MTB: 5 Points (was 7) – Now cheaper than the Pegaso, and comparably priced to the U.S. MTB. At 5 pts a useful filler, and decent in swarms.
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PostTue May 04, 2010 3:59 pm
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zaarin7

 
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This is a good list.  Just wish WoTC would print these as official cards.
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Set I:   64 of 64, 127 units
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Set VI: 40 of 40, 68 units
PostTue May 25, 2010 10:39 pm
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Anrack Fett

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Great job...  I agree with most of your changes...
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PostWed May 26, 2010 1:06 am
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Diamondback

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The other thing would be to incorporate your point-adjustment with Warspite's errata and corrections...
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PostWed May 26, 2010 1:24 am
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Anrack Fett

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That would be a very interesting list and could deserve to be stickied if ever done...


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PostWed May 26, 2010 1:31 am
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