Archive for Axis & Allies ForuMINI Specialised in the World War II Axis & Allies Miniatures and War At Sea Games
 


       Axis & Allies ForuMINI Forum Index -> Army Builds
Yipe

Victorious IJA Lists

Howdy Everybody,

Would anyone care to share their winning Japanese army lists - either in actual play or theoretical potential?  I'm specifically looking for 100 point armies, but any lists, critiques or advice would be appreciated.  

Here's a bit of info about me and my group:

Though I've owned this game for over a year, I'm new to playing AAM and I'm looking for inspiration.  

I only play the Japanese.  More precisely, I only own the Japanese.  I collected my army through the singles market and have yet to buy any booster packs.  As of now, my IJA forces total around 500 points.

I prefer to play historical lists, but flavor is more important than total authenticity.  My regular opponents are the US and the Soviets, though I occasionally battle against the Commonwealth too.

I own every Japanese unit except the following:

Azud Hind Fauj Infantrymen
Type 3 Chi-Nu
Type 89A Chi-Ro
Type 97 Te-Ke Tankette
Type 97 Anti-tank Rifle

For the sake of simplicity, my group plays according to the starter set rules (2 unit stacking limit, etc).  We have experimented with the Airplane variants from the Expanded Rules, but don't use Overwatch, Enfilade, Single Nationality Bonuses or Platoon Formations.

My group generally uses year restrictions (1939 or 1942 so far), but I think this is done mostly for my benefit.  My friends are good sports and build their lists in tandem with mine to keep things balanced.  However, I'd to try my hand at a more competitive environment and see how the Japanese perform.  This would also allow my opponents to use all of the miniatures from their collections.

We don't play with the revised cards or revised rules.  Is this a mistake?

Here are two army lists I'm considering:

IJA TANK COMPANY (1942)
Type 87 Armored Car x2
Type 95 Ha-Go Tank x4
Type 97 Chi-Ha Tank x2
Type 1 Ho-Ni Tank x2

Total Units:  10
Total Points:  100

SNLF AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT COMPANY (1939)
SNLF Captain
SNLF Fanatic x2
SNFL Paratrooper x2
Type 92 Machine-gun Team x2
Type 89 Mortar x2
Type 87 Armored Car
Type 2 Ka-Mi Amphibious Tank x2
Mistubishi A6M Zero

Total Units:  13
Total Points: 100

I'll post samples of the armies I've played against a bit later.

Sincerely,

Yipe
Sharpe

Welcome to the boards.

It's very challenging to play the Japanese.

You might post a trade/buy thread in the marketplace.  Some of the stuff you're missing is very cheap to obtain.
acs0424

hey,
i have the antitank rifle (multiples) and the te-ke tankette (2) if youre intrerested.

as for jp armies i used a 300 point armored force usong:
5 armored cars
ha-go
chi-ha
zero x4

and others to defeat a 150 point american army!

well i can get you some of those missing units:
te-ke tankette x2
azad hind fauj x3
antitank rifle x8

let me know if youre interested by sending me a PM.
Yipe

Thanks for the replies!

With regards to the Japanese units I'm missing, I have purposefully avoided buying them.  I listed them only as a reference tool for what army lists I wouldn't be able to field.

I don't own the Chi-Nu and Chi-Ro because they are in the old scale, the Anti-tank gun because I just don't like the way it looks, and the Azud Hind Infantrymen because they are the same cost as Arisaka Riflemen but have inferior stats.

Not buying the Te-Ke was a tough call as I think it's a really neat little tank.  I was praying that the revised cards would give it some kind of purpose in the game (such as a Recon SA to boost initiative or, well, anything useful), but that didn't happen.  As it stands the Te-Ke is just worthless.

My question is:  Am I really missing out by not having these units?

I would like to add the Chi-Nu at some point, but only in the new scale.  Here's to holding out for a re-size!  I know, I know...

Sincerely,

Yipe
Yipe

Two quick follow-up questions:

@Sharpe
Is it really that bad for the Japanese?  Should I stick with playing against year-restricted friendly lists or is there any hope for them in a more open, competitive environment?

@acs0424
I'm a little slow, so perhaps I'm missing something.  To clarify - are you saying you took 300 pts of Japanese vs 150 pts of Americans and that's how you won?  Thereby implying the IJA have zero hope in an even match-up against the US?

Wow.  Based on these two responses things are not looking good for the Empire of the Rising Sun.
Sharpe

Yipe wrote:
Two quick follow-up questions:

@Sharpe
Is it really that bad for the Japanese?  Should I stick with playing against year-restricted friendly lists or is there any hope for them in a more open, competitive environment?

@acs0424
I'm a little slow, so perhaps I'm missing something.  To clarify - are you saying you took 300 pts of Japanese vs 150 pts of Americans and that's how you won?  Thereby implying the IJA have zero hope in an even match-up against the US?

Wow.  Based on these two responses things are not looking good for the Empire of the Rising Sun.


The Japanese have a few benefits but many burdens.  If you have to face Shermans, Thompsons, Corsairs, etc, it's tough going with limited AT and AA.  Even Garands plus a RDC is hard to beat.

I can't imagine winning with the Japanese in a non-historical environment.  They are fun to play, but their over all OoB is weak.
Yipe

Sharpe wrote:
Even Garands plus a RDC is hard to beat.


Yes, those have done more damage to me than both Thompson or BAR Gunners.  

Here's an example of a 1944 US army list I squared off against and beat, though the game was close:

"Red Devil" Captain
M1 Garand Rifle x3
Thompson Gunner x2
BAR Gunner x2
Marines M2-2 Flamethrower x2
Jeep
M8 "Greyhound"
M3 Light Tank x2

Total Units:  15
Total Points:  99

I used the following 1942 IJA list:

SNLF Captain
Imperial Sergeant
SNLF Paratrooper x2
Arisaka Rifle x3
Imperial Sniper
Type 92 Machine-gun Team x2
Type 89 Mortar
Type 95 Ha-Go Tank x2
Type 97 Chi-Ha Tank x2

Total Units: 15
Total Points: 100

As for Shermans, I'm wonder how effective they are against the Japanese?  They roll so many more dice than are needed vs 2/2 armor.  Are they really worth the points?  I can take a pair of Ho-Ni tanks for around the same price as a single Sherman.

Usually, I'm more worried about M8s and M3s.  They can kill both my soldiers and tanks easily.  Strike and Fade means I have a hard time fighting back without exposing my tanks, and All Guns Blazing can eliminate two of my units per turn.

Thanks for the replies so far.

Sincerely,

Yipe
hey_yu

In general, Shermans are cost-effective and versatile tanks.  Decent anti-tank values and exceptional against infantry.

Do you have an exact list and amount of figures of your Japanese collection to work from?
acs0424

Yipe - yes I took 300 points of japs against 150 points of americans.

The japs had to take hold of a town defended by the americans.  With 12 paras dropping in first turn all hope was lost for the americans but they put up one helluva fight.

Hey_Yu is right, shermans can annhilate anything the japs can throw at them.

So I am basically saying that yes, the japs have little hope in the AAM world.

I also took a 200 point american motorised army (halftracks galor) against a mortar/sniper heavy army of japs with 4 zeros. I owned that game. 3 of the 4 zeros went down first turn and the japs had little hope of winning the whole game.

Japs VS americans, unless the Japs considerably out number the americans, the americans will win almost every time.
Yipe

hey_yu wrote:
Do you have an exact list and amount of figures of your Japanese collection to work from?


Here is a list of my Japanese forces:

INFANTRY
Arisaka Rifle x10
Honor Bound Hero x2
Imperial Sergeant x3
Imperial Sniper x2
SNFL Captain x2
SNFL Fanatic x2
SNFL Paratrooper x3
Type 89 Mortar x4
Type 92 Machine-Gun Team x4
47mm Type 1 Antitank Gun x1
70mm Type 92 x1

VEHICLES
Type 1 Ho-Ni Tank x2
Type 2 Ka-Mi Amphibious Tank x2
Type 87 Armored Car x3
Type 95 Ha-Go Tank x8
Type 97 Chi-Ha Tank x4

AIRCRAFT
Kawanishi NIK-J "Shiden Kai" x1
Mistubishi A6M Zero x3

TERRAIN
Ammo Dump x2
Barbed Wire x2
Fuel Depot x2
Headquarters x2
Pillbox x2
Tank Obstacle x2

Note:  Two of my Ha-Go tanks are in the old scale.  I generally don't mix them with the other six, but I could field all eight at once if necessary.

I want to thank everyone for their in-put and assistance.   I realize the Japanese are an underpowered and poorly represented army in this game, but I appreciate your assistance in making a "competitive" list.

On a side note, I just wanted to say that you guys have been very friendly and helpful.  I'm a bit shy and rarely post on game forums (especially not army lists, etc) as the results are often less than pleasant.  To my surprise (and counter my experience), everyone here has been more than kind.  

Thanks again for helping a newbie out.

Yipe
acs0424

Hm, with the fuel/ammo dump you could create a fast tank army of ha-gos and chi-has.

Or with all the obstacles and infantry you could maintain a solid defenseive line if your job was to defend the objective.
Sharpe

No problem.  It's a very nice place around here, though I've never belonged to any other fora to compare.

You're a pretty good player to beat that US force.  It would be a tough match.

One of the problems is that when you're playing a Japanese opponent, you know to load up on the infantry killers.  The Rising Sun is especially weak at medium range.
hey_yu

Non-revised cards right?  I think the Revised Cards are good because they improve the overall balance of the figures in the game.  Granted some pieces may still be broke, cost-effective compared to other pieces, or even some worse.  Some problems may occur when everyone doesn't have the latest and greatest cards.  My LGS group has this issue.  Some people don't have them or realize their is an update for a given card.

I'll see if I can whip a Japanese 100PT total with non-revised cards in the next couple of days with the figures you listed.  Some others can comment to improve the draft or take a different route.  I've played Japanese a few times.  They suffer from a lack of a good tank (Except Chi-Nu with Revised Card) and their infantry are generally not good at medium ranges.  However, with a Jungle (NA) map they can be a pain to play against with Banzai and Hand-to-Hand.
Yipe

Sharpe wrote:
You're a pretty good player to beat that US force.  It would be a tough match.


Thank you for the compliment.  I'd love to take credit for winning against a superior force, but I can't.

The fact of the matter is I played defensively the entire game, while my opponent was far more aggressive (recklessly so) to spice things up and keep the game moving.

Oddly enough, I went into the battle with an offensive plan befitting the Japanese.  However, from turn 1 I found my infantry were quickly ground down (the Cover Fire SA worked wonders on my HMG-supported advance) and my tanks were cornered into the few bits of cover I could find.

I also had no medium-ranged answer to the American's M1 Garand Rifle + "Red Devil" Captain combo.  I don't believe my Arisaka Rifles hit anything the entire game.  If it weren't for the Forest Runner SA, some lucky cover saves and the possibility that my opponent took pity on me, I'm sure I would have lost.

I recently did better against a 1942 Soviet force that included a T-34/76, a PM-37 Mortar + Spotter combo and a pair of Zis-5 trucks packed with PPSh-41 SMGs.

Sincerely,

Yipe
hey_yu

Here is my initial cut at 100PT Imperial Japanese force using Advance Rules, Non-Revised Cards and your figures list.  You might want to think about using the 05/26/2009 update.  It lifts the unit restrictions, allowing more a troop swarm which could be good for the Japanese.  Link provided below:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/aam/updates

[36PT] Type 97 Chi-Ha Tank x3
[18PT] Type 95 Ha-Go x2
[14PT] Type 92 Machine Gun Team x2
[8PT] Imperial Sniper
[7PT] Honor-Bound Hero
[6PT] SNLF Captain
[6PT] Arisaka Rifle x2
[5PT] SNLF Paratrooper
[100PT] - 13 Figures

Used the Chi-Ha and Ha-Go for dual purpose role as anti-tank and anti-soldier if needed.  Feel free to update and modify as desire.  Build still has issues against tanks depending on what your opponent brings.  Maybe I'll revisit the build and make additional mods.
Yipe

Here's the 1942 Soviet list I played against three times, winning twice.  Both wins were a clear victory for the Japanese, while the loss was a hard-fought battle.  Go, go Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere!

Cossack Captain
Commissar x2
Mosin-Nagant 1891/30 x4
Degtyarev DP-27 x2
PPSh-41 SMG x2
82mm PN-37 Mortar
Red Army Fwd Observer
Zis-5 3 Ton Truck x2
T-34/76

Total Units: 16*
Total Points: 100

This is the 1942 IJA list I fielded against it:

SNLF Captain
SNLF Fanatics x2
SNLF Paratroopers x2
Type 89 Mortar
Type 92 Machine-Gun Team
Type 1 Ho-Ni Tank x2
Type 95 Ha Go Tank x2
Mitsubishi A6M Zero

Total Units: 12
Total Points: 100

*We allowed the extra unit as it made for some nice symmetry in the Soviet list.

Any thoughts or comments?  Was the Soviet list fairly watered-down?  Being new, it's hard for me to tell.

Sincerely,

Yipe
Yipe

hey_yu wrote:
Here is my initial cut at 100PT Imperial Japanese force using Advance Rules, Non-Revised Cards and your figures list.


hey_yu,

Thank you for the army list, it's definitely different than what I have brought to the table so far.  I'll get a chance to play later next week so I'll try it out then.

One question - is the SNLF Paratrooper meant as a way to "drop" the Honor Bound Hero behind enemy lines?
hey_yu

The Soviet list is a light on the tanks (Probably balanced for the Japanese).  Not sure about the spotter in the truck with the Indirect-Fire unit though.  Did your opponent have the spotter in the truck, followed by a spot for the mortar fire and move truck out of harms way?
hey_yu

Yipe wrote:

One question - is the SNLF Paratrooper meant as a way to "drop" the Honor Bound Hero behind enemy lines?

Yes, it gives you the option of doing this.
Sharpe

I think the points for the Cossack Captain, trucks, mortar and observer could have been better spent.  The key to beating the Japanese is lots and lots of shots, even average shots like 6 dice.
Sharpe

For your best all around build with the troops you have, I'd go:

1x shinden (16)
1x HBH   (7)
2x Imp Sgt  (18)
1x Para   (5)
2x SNLF Fan  (14)
6x Arisaka  (18)
1x Mtr   (9)
1x Ho-Ni (12)

You need more fanatics.

The unit limit hurts the Japanese more than anything else.
Yipe

hey_yu wrote:
The Soviet list is a light on the tanks (Probably balanced for the Japanese).  Not sure about the spotter in the truck with the Indirect-Fire unit though.  Did your opponent have the spotter in the truck, followed by a spot for the mortar fire and move truck out of harms way?


I agree that he needed another T-34 at least.  We did play a few games where he had 3 T-26s and 1 BT-7.  In a strange way that was a tougher army for me to face as he had as many tanks as I did.

Against a lone T-34, my pair of Ho-Nis would generally take it out in a single turn by rushing up close and sacrificing themselves.  That's one good thing I can say about the Japanese tanks - you don't feel too bad when they blow up.

He didn't put his spotter in a truck, instead using the transports for his PPSh-41s (in one game he took a few Soviet Grenadiers to go along with the SMGs).  My usual tactic was to sacrifice my Zero to take out his spotter or mortar (whichever wasn't in cover).
Yipe

hey_yu wrote:
You might want to think about using the 05/26/2009 update.  It lifts the unit restrictions, allowing more a troop swarm which could be good for the Japanese.


hey_yu,

Thank you for the link.

I read through the updated rules and I can definitely see how they would benefit the Japanese (as their primary weakness is armor).  But I wonder... doesn't facing a massive infantry swarm slow the game down a lot?  Either way, I'm not sure my group will go for these changes.  They seem pretty drastic.

I also read through the revised cards and I was less than impressed with the Japanese.  Unless I missed something, it seems only the Chi-Nu got a (slight) boost.  The change to the Zero doesn't seem all that important to my style of play and the Type 95 Ha-Go lost the Forest Runner SA (for a meager 1 point reduction), actually making it worse.  To top it all off, the Azud Hind Infantrymen is still 3 points.  Huh?  I can't say I'm inspired to pay the expense of color printing and cutting all those cards.

Anyway, I'm sure this has all been discussed before so I'll stick to the topic at hand - army lists.

Sharpe wrote:
For your best all around build with the trrops you have, I'd go:

1x shinden (16)
1x HBH   (7)
2x Imp Sgt  (18)
1x Para   (5)
2x SNLF Fan  (14)
6x Arisaka  (18)
1x Mtr   (9)
1x Ho-Ni (12)

You need more fanatics.


Thank you for the list.  I will give this one a go as well.

If I switch over to the new rules, how many SNLF Fanatics are reasonable in a 100 point list?

Thanks again for all of the feedback, I truly appreciate it.

Sincerely,

Yipe
Sharpe

Even if you don't want to switch, do:

Shinden Kai
2x Imp Sgt
1x Arisaka
9x Fanatic
Yipe

Sharpe wrote:
Even if you don't want to switch, do:

Shinden Kai
2x Imp Sgt
1x Arisaka
9x Fanatic


I thought there was a limit to the number of 5/5 defense soldiers you could field per 100 points - which is why I only own two SNLF Fanatics - but upon re-reading the rules, I guess there isn't.

Wow, nine Banzai Charging Fanatics.  Eek.  At least with this army list I won't get confused about which unit does what.

And just to clarify - the Imperial Sergeant doesn't benefit from the Banzai Charge SA, only adjacent friendly non-artillery soldiers.  Correct?  We've been playing that he can't Banzai Charge himself along with the rest of his IJA buddies into the enemy (though for 9 points and with a Hand to Hand 10 I sure wish he could).

My apologies for asking about rules in the Army Builds forum.  It won't happen again... probably.  I hope.

Sincerely,

Yipe
Sharpe

Ask anywhere you want.  What kind of old fuddy-duddy rules lawyers do you think we are?  

It's just more likely to get answered in the rules thing unless you're in an active dialogue.  I try to keep a close eye on the rules questions.

Yes, he can banzai himself.  Every unit is by definition adjacent to itself.  Also, he can only Banzai non-disrupted non-artillery soldiers.

Ah, for the good old days, when you could Banzai a PaK 40 two hexes and have it attack with +1 on each die.  That was Japanese AT power.
Yipe

Sharpe wrote:
Yes, he can banzai himself.


And everybody was Banzai Chargi - err, never mind.

Thanks for the rules clarification, that's great news.  It never felt quite right to leave the poor Imperial Sergeant behind while his men rushed forward to certain death (or disruption).  I'm a firm believer that he should die along with the rest of his troops!
Yipe

acs0424 wrote:
Hm, with the fuel/ammo dump you could create a fast tank army of ha-gos and chi-has.


Something like this?

IJA TANK COMPANY (1942)
Type 95 Ha-Go Tank x4
Type 97 Chi-Ha Tank x4
Ammo Dump
Fuel Depot

This would be fun to play, but it lacks anti-armor punch.  I might be better to go with:

IJA TANK COMPANY (1942)
Type 1 Ho-Ni Tank x2
Type 95 Ha-Go Tank x4
Type 97 Chi-Ha Tank x2
Ammo Dump
Fuel Depot

Total Units: 10
Total Points: 100

This could make for some surprise moves on a heavily forested map.  In theory, the Ha-Gos could cover 13 hexes in the first turn (3 up for deployment, 5 in the movement phase and 5 in the assault phase) while ignoring any forest terrain.  I'm not sure what they would do when they got to the other side of the map, but it would be entertaining nonetheless.

Sincerely,

Yipe
Sharpe

You only deploy two hexes in on the 3" maps.
Yipe

Sharpe wrote:
You only deploy two hexes in on the 3" maps.


I'm so confused.

According to my Advanced Rules booklet, which cites 3" hex maps, you deploy 3 hexes in.

Then the Advanced Rules I downloaded instruct you to deploy 5 hexes in.  Granted, that is for much larger map configurations and most likely using 2" hex maps.

Finally, the Expanded Rules say to deploy 3 hexes in.  The Expanded Rules don't cite whether that is for 2" or 3" hex maps, but the photos are of the newer 3" maps.

Help!  I don't want to play with an incorrect rules set.  Where can I find the rules that tell you to deploy 2 hexes in when using 3" hex maps?  Have I overlooked an important change to the game?  And if I missed that, what else am I doing wrong?

I wonder... With so many rules editions, revised rules and revised cards on top of those, is it possible that no one is playing the same game?

Sincerely,

Yipe

P.S.  My opponents and I almost always play on a single 3" map, deploying 3 hexes in.  It keeps our games short and bloody, and the close-in fighting helps out the Japanese a little.  Starting a hex back won't change things too much, but I've found when it comes to the IJA every little bit helps.
Sharpe

Yipe wrote:
Sharpe wrote:
You only deploy two hexes in on the 3" maps.



I wonder... With so many rules editions, revised rules and revised cards on top of those, is it possible that no one is playing the same game?



Exactly.

I'll have to dig out a rule book and check.  We always play 2 hexes in, but we could be wrong.

We are.  It says three.  What do you know?  Of course, it might have said two in the Expanded rules when we first encountered 3" maps or it could have been on the website.  I can't find the Expanded Rules book, but I'll keep looking.

My apologies for confusing you.
Ducky

1x Imperial Sergeant - 9
1x Honor-Bound Hero - 7
1x Type 92 Machine-Gun Team
4x SNLF Fanatics - 28
4x Arisaka Rifle - 12
1x Type 3 Chi-Nu - 18
2x Type 97 Chi-Ha - 24
1x SNLF Paratroopers - 5
----
110 (Expanded Rules)


I've had success with this build. Drop the paratrooper in behind, back him up with the hero, and then press forward with the others. It's a simple formula, but that's all this army needs to be successful. There's probably going to be a numerical and quality advantage with the infantry, and the three tanks are usually able to hold their own with Shermans, resulting in all the tanks dying on both sides, but they cost a lot less. Worst case scenario, the Imperial Sergeant's Banzai Charge gives everyone a +1 to their close assault attacks against any enemy tanks. I've never lost as Japan yet (most of the time I do play 200 point battles though).
Yipe

Sharpe wrote:
My apologies for confusing you.


No apology needed, I live in a state of confusion.

I do think it's amazing that this game has survived so many iterations.  Other games I've played have died out after far fewer - and less drastic - changes.  I believe that's a testament to the creative talents of AAM hobbyists (and this community in particular) who can see the game's potential even beyond some of its flaws.

And back to the Japanese... we're happy to start 3 hexes in!  Banzai Charging through dense forest and jungle hexes is tough work.
Field Marshal PF

Sharpe wrote:
I think the points for the Cossack Captain, trucks, mortar and observer could have been better spent.  The key to beating the Japanese is lots and lots of shots, even average shots like 6 dice.


I agree, I can't recall how many times my company's worth of Arisakas would be shredded by Vickers MG teams, Brens, ...etc

The point is, the Japanese are missing a lot of support pieces. No SMG, no LMG, not even an FO for their howitzer. Their officers are solid, and so is their basic infantry, then there are the Fanatics, but against Armour, they are weak, anyway you look at it.

If your serious about playing the Japanese historically, you will justhave to accept that there are many gaps in their unit line-up, at least for now.
acs0424

Well when it comes to tanks the Japs didn't really have anything as far as I know. But for AT power you will just have to close assault.

As far as I know the expanded rules is everything you need to know rule wise. Overwatch, enfilade, and grazing fire may or may not be used. If you use revised cards the platoons are obsolete.

All in all the japs don't fair well in AAM. The people at WoTC have a bias towards americans in AAM and WAS (though most of it is accurate).  The japs need to be allowed to ignore unit limits in AAM or be given more units.

Their MG isn't that good though they have a great mortar and great basic infantry. Honestly, the Japs probably have the best infantry army in the game, unless your facing garands and red devil captains, then you're screwed.

The japs can win, it is just difficult.
       Axis & Allies ForuMINI Forum Index -> Army Builds
Page 1 of 1