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Flakstruk

Theater clubs and Midway/Pearl

So, these critical engagements fall outside our current theater clubs. Just wondering what club members think on bringing these under the umbrella of existing clubs.

My initial thoughts

Club Frozen Seas - tied in by the feint towards the aleutians

Club SoPac - yep that old chestnut
Tincancaptain

Club Pacific covers all pacific campaigns including Pearl, Wake, Midway and theoretical invasions of the Japanese home islands, Hawaii, and the The western US mainland.
sublime828

Tincancaptain wrote:
Club Pacific covers all pacific campaigns including Pearl, Wake, Midway and theoretical invasions of the Japanese home islands, Hawaii, and the The western US mainland.


Not true.....it is not club pacific.....it is club south pacific which focuses mainly on actions in that particular region.  Sopac is basically representing us/ijn actions after midway and also doesn't use the IJN carriers that were lost at.midway along with Arizona and neveda.
Brigman

Do we need these engagements under the theater clubs?  They fit pretty easily and naturally under the national clubs (IJN/USN).

In any case, there's no current club that would have them... not CFS (we get no USN or IJN) or Club SoPac (specifically excludes the carriers lost at Midway).

I don't know that we need a "Club CenPac" to cover these...
Tincancaptain

sublime828 wrote:
Tincancaptain wrote:
Club Pacific covers all pacific campaigns including Pearl, Wake, Midway and theoretical invasions of the Japanese home islands, Hawaii, and the The western US mainland.


Not true.....it is not club pacific.....it is club south pacific which focuses mainly on actions in that particular region.  Sopac is basically representing us/ijn actions after midway and also doesn't use the IJN carriers that were lost at.midway along with Arizona and neveda.


I was actually suggesting a new region club that includes all pacific actions.
sublime828

At this juncture....what are we going to gain from another pacific club that sopac doesn't already provide? The usn in sopac has everything except the two sunk pearls and the in has everything except the carriers lost at midway.   There really wouldn't be any significant difference in the two.  I don't feel that another pacific club is really neccasry.
Admiral Woodside

sublime828 wrote:
Tincancaptain wrote:
Club Pacific covers all pacific campaigns including Pearl, Wake, Midway and theoretical invasions of the Japanese home islands, Hawaii, and the The western US mainland.


Not true.....it is not club pacific.....it is club south pacific which focuses mainly on actions in that particular region.  Sopac is basically representing us/ijn actions after midway and also doesn't use the IJN carriers that were lost at.midway along with Arizona and neveda.


If that were actually true, then please explain why all the vessels, including USN vessels, that were sunk many months before Midway are still allowed in ClubSouthPacific. I think it is quite arbitrary to exclude the Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu (and soon the Hiryu no doubt) from ClubSouthPacific, especially since you yourself see no need to have a ClubCentralPacific. I don't get your logic at all. In fact, that theater club has a very, very large focus on all actions in the Netherlands East Indies and the Singapore region right from the outset of the Pacific war, e.g., their ABDA and Z-ABDA option fleets. So there is clearly no rule stating Midway and after ships only, just that arbitrary exclusion of three ships that were sunk later at Midway.

Admiral Woodside
Admiral Woodside

Re: Theater clubs and Midway/Pearl

Flakstruk wrote:
So, these critical engagements fall outside our current theater clubs. Just wondering what club members think on bringing these under the umbrella of existing clubs.

My initial thoughts

Club Frozen Seas - tied in by the feint towards the aleutians

Club SoPac - yep that old chestnut


Hmmm. This worries me when you say "that old chestnut". Perhaps this has been vehemently debated before. Well at any rate you can see whose side I am falling in with from my previous post. I suspect, however, that previous positions are hardened and so I guess I will probably be out of luck finding a club that suits me...

Flakstruk, I do appreciate that you have raised this issue, though. It does seem to be the missing link.

Cheers,
Admiral Woodside
Flakstruk

It might simply be that the Kaga, Akagi, Arizona, Nevada fall in the same category as hypothetical units disallowed by the Init deployment rules.

It really falls to club south pacific members to see if they want to extend scope to include those units given the theater clubs were reshuffled and central pacific fell off the map
SWO_Daddy

Flakstruk wrote:
It really falls to club south pacific members to see if they want to extend scope to include those units given the theater clubs were reshuffled and central pacific fell off the map


Flak, recent events with the TBF in UK service seem to indicate it is not solely up to the members of a club.

As far as Club SoPac is concerned, I'll come right out an say it. A theater club that includes pretty much the entire USN, IJN, along with considerable chunks of the UK and Commonweath isn't going to get a lot of sympathy considering other clubs are much more constrained.  The absense of a 5 capitol ships in exchange for that massive OOB seems a small price to pay to me.  Of all the clubs, Club SoPac is the last one that should be campaigning to include more units.
Admiral Woodside

SWO_Daddy wrote:
Flakstruk wrote:
It really falls to club south pacific members to see if they want to extend scope to include those units given the theater clubs were reshuffled and central pacific fell off the map


Flak, recent events with the TBF in UK service seem to indicate it is not solely up to the members of a club.

As far as Club SoPac is concerned, I'll come right out an say it. A theater club that includes pretty much the entire USN, IJN, along with considerable chunks of the UK and Commonweath isn't going to get a lot of sympathy considering other clubs are much more constrained.  The absense of a 5 capitol ships in exchange for that massive OOB seems a small price to pay to me.  Of all the clubs, Club SoPac is the last one that should be campaigning to include more units.


G'day! To be fair, they're not. I was the one who raised the issue of three carriers missing from the IJN South Pacific OOB. In point of fact, the Kaga, Akagi, and Soryu did fight a lot in the South Pacific theater. To exclude them because they were later sunk in some other theater would mean that all the theater OOB are likely flawed as well.

The issue you are raising is the usual one that some team or other is OP (i.e., overpowered). That may or may not be true here, but if a theater club is supposed to be related to historical OOB, then it is probably unavoidable. Also, consider that ClubSouthPacific has specific rules which prohibit for example using the Z-ABDA plus the USN simultaneously. Each fleet option is a separate build. I was only talking about the IJN build being non historical.

Anyway, there is really no way to historically tone down ClubSouthPacific. It was a nexus of combat on planet earth during WW2. The way I see it is that this theater club can allow players that like to play a variety of nations play as if they were national teams without necessarily being penalized just because they are allowed to use either the IJN or USN. They can as a result play against national teams, which are the most active teams anyway and so earn points for their theater team.

Let's say a Club USN member wants to take on a member of ClubSouthPacific who would choose to play IJN, are you saying that the IJN player should be penalized so that the USN player receives a handicap? Because that is what you seem to be implying. And again, most games are with national clubs aren't they? Theater clubs could still play each other as well just by agreeing on national fleet options before a match, like say taking a Z-ABDA against an axis minor fleet option. Why does it have to be a problem?

And besides, Club USN is OP, so this is the pot calling the kettle black. Sorry, couldn't resist that. Shocked

Cheers,
Admiral Woodside
Brigman

The real issue isn't comparing Club SoPac (a theater club) to Club USN (a national club) as the two leagues are seperate.  The real issue is comparing Club SoPac to any other theater club.

Digging at the USN is a nice cheap shot, but totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
SWO_Daddy

Admiral Woodside wrote:
Anyway, there is really no way to historically tone down ClubSouthPacific. It was a nexus of combat on planet earth during WW2.


I can think of one...redraw the boundaries to something more reasonable than the entire Pacific Theater of Operations.  I think they currently only exclude the operations in the Aleutians.

Admiral Woodside wrote:
They can as a result play against national teams, which are the most active teams anyway and so earn points for their theater team.


When you've been here more than week, you'll realize that we just got finished with a National League season.  Folks were playing the hell out the National League teams.  The recent up-tick in Theater Club games is largely due to the end of that season.

Admiral Woodside wrote:
And besides, Club USN is OP, so this is the pot calling the kettle black. Sorry, couldn't resist that. Shocked


As the Club USN President, I've supported the augmentation of virtually every other National League club in the Clubhouse to help make them more competitive (USN planes for the UK, German Planes for the RM, additional units for the French, etc).  And I've encouraged Club USN members to accept games limited by year or other restrictions to keep things competitive.  Club SoPac was deliberately formed to exploit the existing rules concerning the inclusion of units in a club based on historical boundaries.  Not exactly sporting, and it caused a massive blow up here when it happened, including the departure of the guy who formed the Clubhouse in the first place.  Club SoPac, as it stands now, needs to be prepared to accept some pretty stiff restrictions on fleet selection if they expect other clubs to accept games against them in the coming Theater League season.  They are not likely to find much support from other Theater Clubs in adding units.

I'm sorry your favorite IJN carriers aren't included...there is always Club IJN. Shocked Rolling Eyes  

Cheers,
Ensign SWO_Daddy
sublime828

Just to make a few clarifications on SoPac, since no SoPac members are actively participating in this discussion.  In a US fleet, you can include australian and NZ units on a per point basis.

When SoPac formed, there was a lot of discussion on how they wanted to "put together" their allowable unit lists and what they wanted the flavor of their club to be.  They decided to restrict some of the nations units to make their club different than just bringing everything that either nation (USN/IJN) has available.  Weather it was to limit the units that were lost at pearl or midway or to have the IJN operating as they did after the loss of their big carriers, it was SoPacs decision when they formed.

If you weren't around when Sopac came to be, it was huge deal in the clubhouse that saw every theater club revamped and reset along with a total restructuring of the clubhouses format.  Before there were just clubs, after the revamp two types of clubs were born....Theater Clubs and National Clubs.  I guess I am wondering what exactly we are trying to accomplish here with this discussion?

cheers

sub
Admiral Woodside

Flakstruk wrote:
It might simply be that the Kaga, Akagi, Arizona, Nevada fall in the same category as hypothetical units disallowed by the Init deployment rules.

It really falls to club south pacific members to see if they want to extend scope to include those units given the theater clubs were reshuffled and central pacific fell off the map


Fair enough. I wish someone from ClubSouthPacific would chime in. It is not really a very numerous club, but there are some well known members. From the points that they have awarded themselves it does not appear that they are currently very active in club play. Possibly this change in their IJN fleet OOB could bring in new members that might play online, or otherwise generate more interest in their club.

Of course, a full IJN OOB could also be obtained simply by choosing Club IJN as one's national club and ClubSouthPacific as one's theater club. However, to which club does one receive points for any individual club game? Can both a national club and a theater club receive points for the same game? My assumption is that they probably do not. Unless, possibly, one takes in effect the handicap OOB of the theater club, in which case a full power national club team OOB will likely wipe you out. Therefore, this two club approach would inevitably divide up one's labor and obtain as a result less impact. I would personally only rather be a member of one club. For those that are already a member of both a theater and a national club, my guess is that they would usually advertise games to play only as their national club in the clubhouse so as to obtain the biggest impact in their promotion that they can in their main club. This makes all theater clubs of secondary priority. In the case of ClubSouthPacific what I am saying is that this does not have to be the case due to their having a couple of strong historical OOBs. At the same time, if a player is tiring of USN or IJN, he can take a 1944/45 UK Pacific Fleet build, which will be a big challenge against a fully kitted up Club IJN. But, there might be times when one is feeling up to the challenge and one wants to just have a little fun. So why not?

Cheers,
Admiral Woodside
Admiral Woodside

Brigman wrote:
The real issue isn't comparing Club SoPac (a theater club) to Club USN (a national club) as the two leagues are seperate.  The real issue is comparing Club SoPac to any other theater club.

Digging at the USN is a nice cheap shot, but totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.


It wasn't a cheap shot, it was a joke, mate. I even pointed it out and apologized in advance.

Anyway, as per your first point, is it true then that it is prohibited for a ClubSouthPacific player to play in an official ranked match against a Club USN player and then receive points within his CSP team? I would be surprised if this were the case. This is the case in point I am talking about. To say that the CSP must take a handicap against one of the two strongest teams or simply not play at all seems excessive if there is historical justification for their OOB. And one could also just agree in advance for a 1942 limited match, which is about the fairest year for competition between the USN and IJN.

For theater league games, the administrators of the competition could obviously set rules, like in all competitions, like for example no unlimited USN plus commonwealth builds, etc. I don't see that it necessarily has to be a problem.

Admiral Woodside
Flakstruk

sublime828 wrote:
Just to make a few clarifications on SoPac, since no SoPac members are actively participating in this discussion.  In a US fleet, you can include australian and NZ units on a per point basis.

When SoPac formed, there was a lot of discussion on how they wanted to "put together" their allowable unit lists and what they wanted the flavor of their club to be.  They decided to restrict some of the nations units to make their club different than just bringing everything that either nation (USN/IJN) has available.  Weather it was to limit the units that were lost at pearl or midway or to have the IJN operating as they did after the loss of their big carriers, it was SoPacs decision when they formed.

If you weren't around when Sopac came to be, it was huge deal in the clubhouse that saw every theater club revamped and reset along with a total restructuring of the clubhouses format.  Before there were just clubs, after the revamp two types of clubs were born....Theater Clubs and National Clubs.  I guess I am wondering what exactly we are trying to accomplish here with this discussion?

cheers

sub


My bad boss.

I recall the discussion on the emphasis on dive bombers rather than torp for SOPAC, but understood that to be set against the existing pacific club - now defunct.
If the clubhouse is happy with the status quo then I'm not making any stand otherwise.

Besides Club Indian has ABDA and IJN midway rosters
Admiral Woodside

SWO_Daddy wrote:
Admiral Woodside wrote:
Anyway, there is really no way to historically tone down ClubSouthPacific. It was a nexus of combat on planet earth during WW2.


I can think of one...redraw the boundaries to something more reasonable than the entire Pacific Theater of Operations.  I think they currently only exclude the operations in the Aleutians.


No, read the first post of this thread.

Quote:

[quote="Admiral Woodside:787473"] They can as a result play against national teams, which are the most active teams anyway and so earn points for their theater team.

When you've been here more than week, you'll realize that we just got finished with a National League season.  Folks were playing the hell out the National League teams.  The recent up-tick in Theater Club games is largely due to the end of that season.


Sounds like you are rather heated up about this. Well, either the CSP is not updating their members internal points ranking or they have not been playing. If the latter, could they still be suffering from the shell shock of this prior history you are informing me about. I really don't know.

Quote:

Admiral Woodside wrote:
And besides, Club USN is OP, so this is the pot calling the kettle black. Sorry, couldn't resist that. Shocked


As the Club USN President, I've supported the augmentation of virtually every other National League club in the Clubhouse to help make them more competitive (USN planes for the UK, German Planes for the RM, additional units for the French, etc).  And I've encouraged Club USN members to accept games limited by year or other restrictions to keep things competitive.  Club SoPac was deliberately formed to exploit the existing rules concerning the inclusion of units in a club based on historical boundaries.  Not exactly sporting, and it caused a massive blow up here when it happened, including the departure of the guy who formed the Clubhouse in the first place.  Club SoPac, as it stands now, needs to be prepared to accept some pretty stiff restrictions on fleet selection if they expect other clubs to accept games against them in the coming Theater League season.  They are not likely to find much support from other Theater Clubs in adding units.

I'm sorry your favorite IJN carriers aren't included...there is always Club IJN. Shocked Rolling Eyes  

Cheers,
Ensign SWO_Daddy


Yes, well allowing US planes for the UK and all that is just historical isn't it? It is WotC that had omitted them in their financial card game model. Your putting them back in is of course fully justified historically. And fine on year restrictions which is what everyone can do anyway to play balance a contest if they so require it, naturally before a game is agreed upon to be played. It is OT to this discussion.

But this next point you are trying to make seems unfair to CSP and appears to be further beating of them around the face and ears, because as I said previously I am not a member of their group and have never even talked to any of them before and so I am not their spokesman and they have not sought out this fight which you are apparently still waging on them. A bit of a run on sentence, but you get the point don't you? Your tone sounds positively dictatorial. It's really shocking to me that you would even say all this.

Again, to put this another way. Why have theater clubs in the first place if you are going to nerf their historical OOB? I do not accept your premise that in simply forming a club called ClubSouthPacific, that the people that were then involved in forming historically accurate OOB are exploiting the rules. That seems way off base.

As to your final point about joining Club IJN, I tried to answer that in a previous cross-post, as I am apparently having to respond to three people now all simultaneously. Shocked

Admiral Woodside
Admiral Woodside

sublime828 wrote:
Just to make a few clarifications on SoPac, since no SoPac members are actively participating in this discussion.  In a US fleet, you can include australian and NZ units on a per point basis.


Right, I remember seeing that. At the time I considered it as an Allied build option. What you seem to be saying is that they may have considered it as a fair build to take in a theater league game. Is that what they were wanting to do? Or were they not considering using it in that context? I really don't know.

Quote:

When SoPac formed, there was a lot of discussion on how they wanted to "put together" their allowable unit lists and what they wanted the flavor of their club to be.  They decided to restrict some of the nations units to make their club different than just bringing everything that either nation (USN/IJN) has available.  Weather it was to limit the units that were lost at pearl or midway or to have the IJN operating as they did after the loss of their big carriers, it was SoPacs decision when they formed.

If you weren't around when Sopac came to be, it was huge deal in the clubhouse that saw every theater club revamped and reset along with a total restructuring of the clubhouses format.  Before there were just clubs, after the revamp two types of clubs were born....Theater Clubs and National Clubs.  I guess I am wondering what exactly we are trying to accomplish here with this discussion?

cheers

sub


No I wasn't around back then in the forum. However, in looking over their various OOB it appears to me that they did in fact put a lot of effort into it. I was quite impressed by it all, and I have a broad background in very high end wargames dating back to the late 60's, yikes 50 years ago now. Wink

Yes, it is certainly a complex question, especially in a game that the user community had to fix due to various issues of costing and OP (sometimes negative) SA and play balance issues in general. But then that's the nature of a trading card game isn't it? It's very difficult to follow that model and still obtain historical accuracy. That's why many people consider WAS more of a game than a simulation. Still, it is interesting to see how WotC implemented everything. And it's definitely addicting.

Cheers, mate
Admiral Woodside
sublime828

Ok ill try to clarify some of your questions Woody Very Happy

As for a including AU/NZ units in a US fleet for SoPac, yes, you can legally using those nations in US builds according to SoPacs fleet build requirements (i think one AU/NZ unit per 50pts)

There are two main competitions in the WAS Clubhouse:  The National Club League Championship and the Theater Club League Championship.  Only national clubs can participate in the NCLC and only theater clubs can participate in the TCLC.  We just wrapped up the NCLC which is why there was limited activity by the Theater Clubs.  The TCLC will start sometime of the summer.

At anytime, any club can play another club.  Before all of the other theater clubs, There was only Club Med and Club Frozen Seas followed after that.  During this time, CMED and CFS played in the same league as the national clubs.  When SoPac started, the two club divisions where started (theater and national) and Club atlantic and Club Indian were also started....rounding out our Theater clubs.  There are regularly matches between Theater Clubs and National Clubs...the Theater clubs just play according to their build rules.  

You can be a member of one theater club and one national club but your matches can only count for one of them.....even if the fleet would fit under both clubs.  When you start a club/league match, you are declaring which Club you are playing for and in the case of the Theater Clubs, which nation you are playing.  We have members who are daul members, and members who are only members in a national club or a theater club.

Most of the clubs do have a ranking system.  It is fun to try and achieve higher rankings within your club by playing and winning club matches for them.  You may find yourself playing more matches for the club you like the most or splitting time between a national/theater club.  Its really up to your preference.

The theater clubs are in now way second tier to the national clubs.  We all have equal footing here in the clubhouse.....although most of the Theater clubs have been subject to some scrutiny of one kind or another.

When the clubs restructured there was a great deal of research    put into the actual compositions of the Theater Clubs.  Many of our members spent countless hours going through and researching the nations and units that would participate in their theaters.  It was very much a collaborative effort by members of various clubs helping each other out.......so you can understand if people get a little uptight when someone questions their work.

If you are looking for a pretty broad look at the clubhouse and what it has to offer, please check out the clubhouse wardroom thread (stickied at the top of this page) and peruse some of the clubs HQ's

Hope this helps to answer some of your questions sir Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy


sub out!
SWO_Daddy

[Edit - most of this can probably be ignored....Sub pretty much covered it while I was typing this]

Going to try to be constructive here...

Admiral Woodside wrote:
They can as a result play against national teams, which are the most active teams anyway and so earn points for their theater team.

-------------------------------

Sounds like you are rather heated up about this. Well, either the CSP is not updating their members internal points ranking or they have not been playing. If the latter, could they still be suffering from the shell shock of this prior history you are informing me about. I really don't know.


The whole bloody affair is in the archived discussions on the forum.  Its bad enough that we even need to talk about it.  Some good folks left and have never returned.  It was ugly and hard to watch.  I wouldn't recommend reading some of that stuff again unless you just like watching train wrecks.  

As for the game play, there is no prohibition on National and Theater clubs playing against each other in "Club" games, which are little more than pick-up games.  "League" Games are played during "National" and "Theater" seasons and are competitive games between the clubs in each category.  There is no prohibition on being a member of a National and a Theater Club at the same time (a number of folks actively do so).  

The reason you are seeing very few Theater games lately is we just finished a 100 day National League season, and players were focused there.  For example, I'm a member of Club Med, which played virtually no games in the last four months (we've only got a couple of active, game playing members), but we're playing now.  Same could be said of Club Frozen Seas, Club Atlantic, Club Indian, etc.  Game play is not a prerequiste for club membership, and the few guys that play in each of those clubs were busy with their respective National League games.  With that season over, were about to see a big drop off in National League games, and big up turn in Theater games.  It was rise to a dull roar when the season gets going.  

As for the Club SoPac players, I can't totally say.  The Club President has been MIA for some time now, and only one or two of their other players have actively played games lately (National League games).  About half of their members have never played an online game (the same could be said of a number of other clubs...Club USN, for example has a ton of members, but only a half dozen that play any online games).  I expect its only a matter of time before the few active SoPac players join the party.    

Admiral Woodside wrote:
Yes, well allowing US planes for the UK and all that is just historical isn't it? It is WotC that had omitted them in their financial card game model. Your putting them back in is of course fully justified historically. And fine on year restrictions which is what everyone can do anyway to play balance a contest if they so require it, naturally before a game is agreed upon to be played. It is OT to this discussion.


You made the comparison to the National League clubs.  I was simply pointing out we've made an effort to make that particular league more competitive, with a recognition that Club USN had a natural edge.  When this got started, there were no such concessions (no USN aircraft in Club RN for example), and it was an active decision to add them.  As odd as this sounds, I find I'm actually in the minority here in thinking the RN should get to use USN carrier air by default.

Admiral Woodside wrote:
Your tone sounds positively dictatorial. It's really shocking to me that you would even say all this.

Again, to put this another way. Why have theater clubs in the first place if you are going to nerf their historical OOB? I do not accept your premise that in simply forming a club called ClubSouthPacific, that the people that were then involved in forming historically accurate OOB are exploiting the rules. That seems way off base.


If I sound harsh, its probably in response to the pot/kettle/black comment.  I'd like to think we've made an honest effort the make things equitable in the National League side of the house.  

That said, the problem with the competition side of the Theater League clubs is there are some potential imbalances that I don't think we are really going to see until the competition really gets going.  Once upon a time, we didn't have separate National and Theater Leagues, and Club Med got pretty well handled by the big 4.  We gave it a go, but taking on the big 6 hull BBs with ships like Littorio is a little rough.

Many navies in the Theater Leagues are sub-sets of their National fleets in the game.  In some cases, its minor, but in others, it potentially pretty gross.  Club SoPac doesn't give up much at all in comparison to some of the other Clubs.  Limits on year, classes, etc are probably going to be necessary to keep some games against their fleets competitive.  The absence of a few ships from the early war isn't much of a constraint in and of itself, particulary considering what some of their opponents are going to be using.

Admiral Woodside wrote:
As to your final point about joining Club IJN, I tried to answer that in a previous cross-post, as I am apparently having to respond to three people now all simultaneously. Shocked

Admiral Woodside


The best I think I can recommend is to consider joining both a National and a Theater Club.  If you like the RN/Commonwealth and the IJN for example, maybe Club Frozen Seas/Med/Atlantic and Club IJN.  Of maybe just SoPac and IJN. Really the only time you would see a limit on the ships you want would be during the Theater League season.
sublime828

sublime828 wrote:
Ok ill try to clarify some of your questions Woody Very Happy

As for a including AU/NZ units in a US fleet for SoPac, yes, you can legally using those nations in US builds according to SoPacs fleet build requirements (i think one AU/NZ unit per 50pts)

There are two main competitions in the WAS Clubhouse:  The National Club League Championship and the Theater Club League Championship.  Only national clubs can participate in the NCLC and only theater clubs can participate in the TCLC.  We just wrapped up the NCLC which is why there was limited activity by the Theater Clubs.  The TCLC will start sometime of the summer.

At anytime, any club can play another club.  Before all of the other theater clubs, There was only Club Med and Club Frozen Seas followed after that.  During this time, CMED and CFS played in the same league as the national clubs.  When SoPac started, the two club divisions where started (theater and national) and Club atlantic and Club Indian were also started....rounding out our Theater clubs.  There are regularly matches between Theater Clubs and National Clubs...the Theater clubs just play according to their build rules.  

You can be a member of one theater club and one national club but your matches can only count for one of them.....even if the fleet would fit under both clubs.  When you start a club/league match, you are declaring which Club you are playing for and in the case of the Theater Clubs, which nation you are playing.  We have members who are daul members, and members who are only members in a national club or a theater club.

Most of the clubs do have a ranking system.  It is fun to try and achieve higher rankings within your club by playing and winning club matches for them.  You may find yourself playing more matches for the club you like the most or splitting time between a national/theater club.  Its really up to your preference.

The theater clubs are in now way second tier to the national clubs.  We all have equal footing here in the clubhouse.....although most of the Theater clubs have been subject to some scrutiny of one kind or another.

When the clubs restructured there was a great deal of research    put into the actual compositions of the Theater Clubs.  Many of our members spent countless hours going through and researching the nations and units that would participate in their theaters.  It was very much a collaborative effort by members of various clubs helping each other out.......so you can understand if people get a little uptight when someone questions their work.

If you are looking for a pretty broad look at the clubhouse and what it has to offer, please check out the clubhouse wardroom thread (stickied at the top of this page) and peruse some of the clubs HQ's

Hope this helps to answer some of your questions sir Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy


sub out!


wow SWO, we just posted very similar posts almost simultaneously......  kind of wierd Shocked
Admiral Woodside

sublimy828

Yes I did look at that thread and virtually all of the clubs in great detail over several days mulling over which one I liked best. As I said I ended up liking the variety of ClubSouthPacific. Anyway, none of the questions I just asked were answered in that thread, so thank you for answering them in such detail. It sounds like the system is still in transition or forming at the moment to a certain extent.

I can assure you, that when I was lobbying for inclusion of the essential three IJN CV in the early war years that fought in the South Pacific and which are represented in the game, I was not seeking to exploit anyone or anything, and not existentially threatening anyone. I am just interested in that theater and have studied it quite a bit and have generated both computer and miniatures campaigns for the whole NEI theater in great detail, the latter using the General Quarters I/II game system. You could call it both a gaming and an enthusiast interest. Anyway, just so you know that.

But, there is also a point to be made here that is being overlooked. Shokoku and Zuikaku, which were still included in the ClubSouthPacific IJN OOB are no longer in print. So by excluding the only two early war carriers that still are in print, namely Soryu and Kaga, one is in effect excluding all carriers other than Ryujo or escort carriers, since Taiho was not available historically for this theater. The flaw is in the nature of the trading card game itself. It ends up being a bunch of kids disallowing each others stuff, which does not appeal to me at all. I am interested in historically based, or at least related, wargaming.

To me it seemed an issue of fairness as well. People weren't excluding Shokaku or Zuikaku and claiming they were in a more northerly theater, which would have seemed fair to me. I could accept that. Instead, it seemed like the exclusions were gaming the system in favor of the haves at the expense of the have nots. That's how it seems to me.

Regards,
Admiral Woodside
sublime828

Im a little confused about why it would matter if a unit is out of print or not?  The Clubs and playable units are (at least to my knowledge) for online gaming only.  I haven't been aware of any club matches taking place anywhere but here on the forumini.  It doesn't matter if you possess the physical units as you can build your fleets according to the clubs restrictions and it doesn't require you to possess any war at sea units at all!  You can just play, unless your a plastic crack addict (there are numerous addicts here as you will find out) who have to play with little plastic ships everyday.  (my precious....... Laughing )
Solomiranthius

Not adding much here but yeah, the clubs are primarily a way for members of the Forumini to interact through discussions and either competitive or friendly play online. Outside of the specific restrictions listed in a theater club, you can set up a match with someone else however you want. Year limits, class limits, no limits, OOB, no BBs, no air, etc. It doesn't matter whether you own the units or not, you can use whatever online. When I started, I owned nothing and played lots, and now... stupid plastic crack... Wink

As others have said, the clubs have gone through relatively recent and volatile changes. Everyone here appreciates input and comments, but, at the moment, I think you'll find the vast majority of the clubhouse wishing to keep what has been so recently created intact and unchanged for the time being. There is still the occasional wrinkle to iron out, but the structure and makeup of the Theater Clubs is pretty solid. Once the Theater League starts (in a couple months) and is over (in a little over half-a-year), we'll all reflect on the season, the participation, and see what can or should be changed.

For the time being, it would be great to get a new addition to the clubhouse. Club SoPac might not be exactly what you're looking for (if your heart is dead set on those three carriers), but you might find it worthwhile to join anyway, and join ClubIJN. I think you'll find, despite your fears, that being in two clubs doesn't dilute the experience, especially with the separate leagues. I greatly enjoyed playing the USN in the recent league season, but my heart does lie foremost with Club Frozen Seas.

Whatever you decide, welcome to the forums!
Admiral Woodside

SWO_Daddy wrote:

Quote:
The whole bloody affair is in the archived discussions on the forum.  Its bad enough that we even need to talk about it.  Some good folks left and have never returned.  It was ugly and hard to watch.  I wouldn't recommend reading some of that stuff again unless you just like watching train wrecks.

<snip>

As for the Club SoPac players, I can't totally say.  The Club President has been MIA for some time now, and only one or two of their other players have actively played games lately (National League games).


Right, just my luck, the main club I am interested in has been apparently nuked out. You know, that doesn't look good, mate.

As for the joke I made, I guess I could have been reacting to what already seemed to be heated comments on your part, not having had any clue of the history you are alluding to.

Quote:
As odd as this sounds, I find I'm actually in the minority here in thinking the RN should get to use USN carrier air by default.


You're right, mate. That's sad to see so many people these days that have no clue of the history which preceded them.

I guess I was more interested in what you or Sublime referred to as pick up games, being just way too busy to think about tournaments or their rules.

Quote:
The absence of a few ships from the early war isn't much of a constraint in and of itself, particulary considering what some of their opponents are going to be using.


Here is where we really disagree. It's not just a few ships which had no bearing on the war that this is excluding. As I pointed out in my previous post, this is excluding the only two CAP 3 early war carriers still in print, Soryu and Kaga, while allowing Zuikaku and Shokaku which frankly I have never seen advertised anywhere this entire year. And Akagi is not available either that I have seen, so even if it were allowed, try and find one now. So this seemingly minor exclusion of actual historical units in effect takes out the entire IJN naval air arm, which really upsets me as I like the air builds quite a lot.

Anyway, by for now.
Admiral Woodside
sublime828

Admiral Woodside wrote:


Here is where we really disagree. It's not just a few ships which had no bearing on the war that this is excluding. As I pointed out in my previous post, this is excluding the only two CAP 3 early war carriers still in print, Soryu and Kaga, while allowing Zuikaku and Shokaku which frankly I have never seen advertised anywhere this entire year. And Akagi is not available either that I have seen, so even if it were allowed, try and find one now. So this seemingly minor exclusion of actual historical units in effect takes out the entire IJN naval air arm, which really upsets me as I like the air builds quite a lot.

Anyway, by for now.
Admiral Woodside


Like we said above...you need not physically possess the units to use them in online matches.  You have access to as many of your clubs available units as you wish regardless if you own them or not.  Class limits are a game specific choice made by the players playing it (eg. - if you are playing a match without historic limits you could bring 10 haguros)

Pick up matches are just basically just a club match between two club members.  If you play a club match (lets say for CRN) against another club member, you are playing for your clubs nation(s) and to earn wins/ranks for your club.  You can challenge other members to a pickup club match at anytime, even if we are in a league season.
SWO_Daddy

I'm not sure what the concern about out of print units continues to be.  As Solo said, the clubs are about a community of interest, and for those who choose to participate, online play.  All of cards are available online: http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/about2518.html&highlight=

No one is taking a head count of collections, and picking a club here doesn't hold you to playing a specific group of units outside of a "club" or "league" game.  And certainly nothing at the gaming table with real units you own.

I'm just not seeing units being OOP as an issue at all.  Color me confused Batman!

[Edit - yep...another cross post with Sub.  Don't mind me.]
firesdstny

I think what everyone is trying to say here is
welcome to the clubhouse Woodsides!

We're glad to have you, especially because you took some time to look through things.  It's not your fault you stumbled into a bit of a hornet's nest and yes things are still "coming together".  

The main thing I can say is to check out the online matches forum also.  At the moment you will see quite a few training matches (a lot of us are showing some new online players how to get addicted in a different way Smile ), you'll see some for fun matches (the ease-down from the National Club League, and a few announced club matches between a few members here representing either their Theatre or their National club.  The announced club matches "count" towards club rankings - the for fun's and the training matches do not.  

Actual tabletop matches do not really count towards your clubs.  The clubs greatly welcome and appreciate the enthusiasm for a particular nation/theatre, but the online realm allows players who may not have an easily accessible gaming group to play the game frequently and free of many real-life restrictions.  It's also fabulous for getting to know the game and the units much much better.  I know if it weren't for the forumini and the online games I would not hardly be the enthusiast for the game that I am.  

As an enthusiast for your perspective club (SoPac) it is EXPECTED that you should lobby for your club and make well-reasoned arguments for or against certain things (which you have).  Change is slow, but clubs can change a lot in a short amount of time.  The current debate (the missing carriers) really was a concession/compromise/declaration of intent made by SoPac's founders when the club was proposed.  As I'm sure you've noticed, "debate" for SoPac was fierce and sticky.  

SoPac's future depends more on who picks up the banner however than who founded it and started it.  So I say join SoPac, compete, and debate.  If the President/VP do not return, you may end up with more right to argue your points and more wherewithal to propose changes.  

Once more welcome !
sublime828

SWO_Daddy wrote:
 Color me confused Batman!



BAM!

                                      POW!

Laughing  Laughing  Laughing
herky80

Just the other day I was wondering what was up in the ol' Clubhouse...

Edit: no reason to provoke trolls who are not here anymore Wink Laughing
SWO_Daddy

Not this again.
herky80

SWO_Daddy wrote:
Not this again.


What do you mean?

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