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boersma8

The battle of Mokra, Poland 1 September 1939

Since Early war is just about around the corner, I thought I'd try my hand at designing an Early war scenario involving the Poles. This battle took place on the very first day of the war- 1 September 1939-, so it doesn't get much " earlier"  Cool  than that!

I'll write a lengthier introduction soon, but I will mention right here and now that this was one of the rare Polish victories during the Polish campaign.

Here's te Wikipedia page on the battle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mokra

Here's the actual terrain the battle took place in and the opposing forces: (Hope I did a good job recreating the map!  Laughing )

http://www.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~bolas/main/bitwy/mokra/mapmokra.jpg

Some youtube videos on the battle:
here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mpEioeoTjg&hl=pl

http://video.google.pl/videosearch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5...-8&sa=N&hl=pl&tab=wv#
boersma8

Maps:

I apologize in advance for my lack of technical skills which is why I cannot at this point provide a picture of the battlefield, which would have been much handier. Nevertheless I've done my utmost to be as clear as possible in explaining where the overlay tiles go. Perhaps someone could post this for me once they've set up the scenario for themselves? I'd appreciate it very much! (map's been posted; just scroll down this thread!)

^ North

15 ==> # SE corner
3 ==> # SE corner
4 ==> # NW corner

(When looking at the maps from South to North; Road running S to N)

You need the following overlay tiles (I've used tiles from memoir ' 44. Tide of Iron will also do, but I don't think that game comes with enough woods tiles for this scenario. Of course another option is to print them out from the wizards website, but I prefer the memoir '44 tiles):

9x village/town
29x woods
2x stream

Overlay tiles:

Map 4:

1. Place a town tile on either side of the road, 4 FULL hexes in from the South and one more directly to the left and right of these. This way you end up with 4 town hexes in a straight horizontal line interrupted only by a "clear"  road hex.

2. Place a town tile on the hill hex closest to the road and another one in the clear hex directly to its right.

3. Place two woods tiles over the remaining two hill hexes on map 4.

Map 3:

4. Place a town tile on the woods hex to the South-west of where the road runs through the forest.

5.Place a town tile directly to the South-East of the woods hex bordering the road to the right.

6. Place a stream tile on the hexside of the clear hex directly to the SW.

7. Place another stream tile on the hexside between the woods hex and the clear hex to the SW of the town tile mentioned under "4"  above.

8. Place a woods tile on the hex joining maps 4 and 3 to the North of the (original)  hill hexes. Place two more woods tiles directly to the NE and NW.

9. Place a woods tile over the hill hex in the NE of map 3.

10. Place a woods tile to the East of the Northernmost lake hex.

11. Place 4 more woods tiles directly bordering the road on the left hand side.

12. Place 3 more directly to the left of these; starting from the South.

13. Place one more to the NE of these (bordering the road, two hexes SE of the lake hex on map 15) thus joining maps 3 and 15.

Maps 3 and 15:

14. Place two more woods tiles in the hexes directly to the right of the road here and yet another one directly to the North of these thus linking up with the pre-printed woods on map 15 ( E48A, E55A and E56A)

Map 15:

15. Place a town hex directly to the SE of the lake hex (E31A).

16. Place woods hexes in the following hexes: E5A, E6A, E14A, E21A, E28 A, E29A,E43A, E44A, E50A, E52A, E69A and E77A.

Additional set-up notes:

Poles set up first. They may set up in any cover providing terrain between the two rivers. The Germans automatically win the initiative on Turn 1. Half hexes are in play for this scenario.

Victory conditions and Game length:

The scenario lasts for ten turns.

The Germans score 5 VPs for each vehicle and 2 VP for each soldier class unit exited off the Eastern map edge between the rivers. Exiting costs one movement point when adjacent to the Eastern map edge. These units cannot return to play once exited off-board.

The Poles score 3 VPs for each German vehicle and 1 VP for each soldier unit destroyed.

Degrees of victory/ defeat (point difference):

1-10 token victory/ defeat
10-20 minor victory/ defeat
21-30 major victory/ defeat
30+ crushing victory/ defeat

IT IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED TO USE THE EXPANDED RULES WHEN PLAYING THIS SCENARIO. THE POLES CAN SCORE A LOT OF POINTS BY DESTROYING GERMAN VEHICLES. HAVING ANTI-TANK GUNS (and/or ANTI-TANK RIFLES/ MACHINE GUNS when using our houserules overwatch rules! ==> See the optional rules section) IN OVERWATCH GRANTS A LOT OF POSSIBLE EXTRA SHOTS AND CERTAINLY KEEPS THE GERMANS FROM TRYING TO RACE OFF BOARD JUST LIKE THAT WITH NOTHING IN THE WAY TO STOP THEM. THE SCENARIO'S VICTORY CONDITIONS ARE BASED ON USING THE EXPANDED RULES, MOST NOTABLY OVERWATCH!

Polish forces:

At set up:

4x M36 Bofors 37 mm AT gun (Use Hungarian 37 mm AT gun proxy + statcard) See special rules.
3x Karabin ppanc. 7,92 mm wz.35 (Use PTRD 41 proxy + statcard
3x CKM wz.30 MG team (Use Vickers proxy a statcard)
2x Mors " Walrus" SMG (Use Bar gunner proxy + statcard)
5x Polish Mauser
3x Determined infantrymen
1x Spotter ( Use British proxy) See special rules
1x Polish officer (Use Romanian vigilant Lieutenant proxy + statcard)
1x Headquarters
2x Armoured train ( Use Memoir '44 armoured train " tile" or a pawn or any other means to represent these). See special rules

Turn 5 Polish reinforcements: . These units enter on the Polish movement phase of turn 5 on the Eastern map edge between the two rivers. They may still move. However, the set up hex counts as one movement point spent!

6x Polish Cavalrymen
1x Polish cavalry officer (Use Cossack cavalrymen proxy + statcard) See special rules
4x TKS light tank (Use Italian L3/33 proxy + statcard)
1x Polish Renault R-35 (Use French proxy + statcard)
1x 7 TPdw (Polish tank set 2)
1x wz. 34 samochod pancerny (Use BA-10M Russian proxy + statcard, but reduce its AV attack to 5/4/3!)

German forces at set up:

These units set up on the Western map edge (Remember, half hexes are in play!) between the two rivers.

2x sdkfz 222
2x BMW
1x sdkfz 251
1x Schutzen infantry (Use panzergrenadier proxy + statcard). See special rules

German turn 2 reinforcements:

(All or part of them may be held back until turn 3, but they must enter in the movement phase of turn 3 at the latest)

The actual approach to the Polish defensive positions -through open terrain- from the West was actually much longer than shown on the maps.To depict this, these turn 2 reinforcements  may not move on the first turn they enter play (neither during the movement nor assault phases). However, they may attack normally.[/i]

3x Panzer I (Use 38(t) proxy, but NOT its statcard!) See special rules
2x Panzer II C
3x sdkfz 251
3x Shutzen infantry
2x Ammo dump. See special rules
2x 7.5 cm Lel G18
1x 81 mm mortar
2x Disciplined spotter
1x Light mortar
3x Opel Blitz truck


German turn 4 reinforcements:

These units set up on the Southern edge of the board. [i](All or part of them may be held back until turn 7, but they must enter in the movement phase of turn 7 at the latest)
They may not move on the first turn they enter play (neither during the movement nor assault phases). However, they may attack normally.

2x Stuka JuB (Use JuG proxy) See special rules
5x Panzer II C
4x Panzer I
1x Kuebelwagen
1x Wehrmacht Oberleutnant
2x MG 34 (Use sandbagged MG team proxy, but NOT its statcard) See special rules
5x Schutzen infantry
1x Opel Blitz
3x Sdkfz 251
1x Flammenwerfer
1x Light mortar

Special rules:

* Half hexes are in play for this scenario

* M36 Bofors 37 mm AT gun: This unit gains the superior camouflage SA (This unit cannot be attacked at medium and long range when in cover) as well as " entrenched": Until this unit moves it's got +1/+1 defense.

* The Polish spotter (only!) gains the superior camouflage SA.

* Armoured train:

The armoured train is considered to be moving along tracks one hex directly off board off the Eastern map edge. It may be attacked normally. Obviously it's a vehicle unit. Units (including aircraft) may only attack it from on board.

Defense: 5/5

AI: 8/8/7
AV: 9/8/7

Relocate 5.

SA: Indirect fire

SA: Multiple guns: After this unit attacks in your assault phase it may make an additional attack. It may not attack the same target twice, use Defensive fire against soldier units nor be put on Overwatch.

Cavalry officer: In addition to the statcard of the Cossack cavalrymen, this units gains the SA:

Sudden strike: Friendly cavalry units that start their move adjacent to this unit may move at speed 2 after attacking in your assault phase.

Samochod pancerny: Remember to reduce its AV stats to: 5/4/3

Schutzen: In addition to the panzergrenadier's statcard it receives the SA:

Protect the panzers!:When this unit is in the same hex as a friendly vehicle, the defense of this vehicle  is raised by 1/1 against attacks from units with the close assault ability.

Panzer I:

Speed 4
Defense 2/2
AI: 7/7/6
AV: 3/2/2
SA: Double shot. This unit may make two attacks in your assault phase.

Ammo dump: The ammo dumps may enter play loaded onto a truck. However, once off-loaded they may no longer move.

Stuka:

Speed: A
Defense: 4/4
AI: 7/5
AV: 2/2
SA: Slow
SA: bombs: This unit may make 3 bombing runs using the following stats for those attacks:

AI: 9/7
AV: 8/6

SA: Sirens: After attacking a target in your air attack phase, roll a die for each enemy unit adjacent to the target. On a roll of 5 or 6 place a face-up disrupted counter on this unit. If the enemy unit is in cover a 6 is needed.

MG 34:

Speed 1
Defense 4/4
AI: 9/8/6
AV: 3/2/2
SA: double shot

Optional rules:

* Allow the Poles to set up 4 units as " hidden" . Write down their locations on  piece of paper and/or place a hit-counter under a tile if it's in such a hex. If this optional rule is used for one or more of the AT guns they lose their superior camouflage SA. A hidden unit becomes revealed under the following conditions:

* When it fires.
* When it moves outside of cover.
* When an enemy unit enters its hex.

* For simplicity's sake, ignore the bombing runs SA of the Stuka and give it a standard AV attack of 8/6. This rule can also be used to further balance the scenario in favour of the Germans.

* Add an off-board fuel dump to the German forces. This unit cannot be attacked but German vehicles benefit from it from the start of the game! (Remember, the BMW is NOT a vehcile, so it doesn't get the road bonus either!)

* Replace the 2 German ammo dumps that are part of the turn 2 reinforcements by an off-board one (see above). The Germans will benefit from it from the start of turn 2.

* Add an additional Bofors 37 mm AT gun to the Polish forces at set up. This optional rule is meant to further balance the scenario in favour of the Poles.

* When using the expanded rules, Any two units per side may be put on Overwatch at any given time either against vehicles or soldier units.(However, vehicles without the "Overlapping fire SA" still can't make DF/ Overwatch attacks against soldiers!)

* Rather than only being allowed to put units into overwatch in a straight line, draw an imaginary line between the unit in overwatch and the furthest hex that can be targeted in a certain direction (range and LOS). A moving unit is eligible to be fired upon if it enters a hex this imaginary line touches. (unless LOS is blocked by terrain). Indicate in which direction overwatch applies!)

These last two rules are rules that have become standard in our own games.

Enjoy!!!

Please let me know what you think of it!
Snippersly

OOHH!!  I was looking at making this as a scenario for early war!!  Especially since we got the Schleswig-Holstien in Flank Speed!  I will put this on my play list...hopefully soon!
Bean965

This looks really good - my kind of scenario!

Did you playtest it yourself? If so, what was the result of the battle?
boersma8

Bean965 wrote:
This looks really good - my kind of scenario!

Did you playtest it yourself? If so, what was the result of the battle?


We did play it once or twice, but we hadn't quite decided on the exact victory conditions then. In short, it needs some more playtesting, but I always like the input of the community. Dozens of people are sure to catch more possible glitches than two....

Hope you'll try it out!

I've made some small corrections, BTW and the optional rule regarding the Victory conditions has become the standard (otherwise those Polish horseys won't have much to do. Unlike popular opinion, they didn't actually charge panzers.....
boersma8

Snippersly wrote:
OOHH!!  I was looking at making this as a scenario for early war!!  Especially since we got the Schleswig-Holstien in Flank Speed!  I will put this on my play list...hopefully soon!


The Schleswig Holstein DID NOT take part in this particular battle. Mokra is close to Czestochowa, Katowice (hundreds of kilometres inland). I sincerely doubt a battleship could have been spotted there..... Shocked

You're referring to the battle for Danzig (present day Gdansk in Poland) probably...
general Hoth

Looks good. Very Happy

I like the armored train.
boersma8

general Hoth wrote:
Looks good. Very Happy

I like the armored train.


The two armoured trains were more or less decisive in the actual battle.
boersma8

Changed the victory conditions somewhat. Did some more playtesting and the scenario proved to be very hard on the Germans. They now get 5 points for each vehicle exited off the board and 2 for each soldier unit.
Angel of Death

Work in progress trying to put this stuff in a map.
I was quite puzzled by the setup but I think I get it now.

I made all the extra hexes stand out a bit in red. Should make setting up easier. Note that the extra streams on map 3 are not that red. But you should be able to pick them out.

Boersma8, could you check if this is what you thought of ?
Some of your directions were very hard to follow, especially on the exact locations of the streams and some of the forests on map 3. Also, the map coordinates of map 15 are very hard to read on the jpg maps. It didnt help very much. I hope I placed the woods right.


p.s. where do the Polish reinforcements deploy from ?





(edit : changed middle map (3) according to Boersma8's feedback)
general Hoth

WOW! Thanks angel. Cool
Thuddeus

Wow, AoD, just wow!. With your map, I can actually give this scenario a spin.
Angel of Death

Gladly done. I wanted to try this scenario myselves too Smile
boersma8

Angel of Death wrote:
Work in progress trying to put this stuff in a map.
I was quite puzzled by the setup but I think I get it now.

I made all the extra hexes stand out a bit in red. Should make setting up easier. Note that the extra streams on map 3 are not that red. But you should be able to pick them out.

Boersma8, could you check if this is what you thought of ?
Some of your directions were very hard to follow, especially on the exact locations of the streams and some of the forests on map 3. Also, the map coordinates of map 15 are very hard to read on the jpg maps. It didnt help very much. I hope I placed the woods right.


p.s. where do the Polish reinforcements deploy from ?





Polish reinforcements set up on the Eastern map edge in their movement phase of turn 5. They may still move. The hex they set up in counts as 1 hex moved.

One of the village hexes is wrong ( I wrote you a PM in which I said the stream is wrong, it's actually the attached village). It should be one hex further North East bordering the woods hex. The rest is perfect! Thanks for this amazing job!I'm sure many more people will be tempted to give this one a go now!

PS: We did an additional playtest yesterday and made some changes accordingly. Now the Poles no longer score additional points for contesting any of the village hexes at the end of turn ten. We're also considering giving the Germans a(n) (off-board) fuel dump. Contrary to what many may think originally judging by the opposing forces, this scenario is actually extremely challenging for the Germans! (As it should be, as in reality they lost this battle!). However, of course we do want to give them at least a chance to win. Yesterday's score was 67 - 26 for the Poles, just to give you an idea. (76 if counting the village hexes as well). It does require a certain type of play on the part of the Poles. Divert from this and you might end up with a completely different result. If followed through however,we feel there's no way the Germans can win presently. We're going to give it another go next Saturday.
Angel of Death

Ok, map 3 is edited in my map post. Here's a link for if you want to see it on its own.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums...rrithansson/Map3SE2scenariov2.jpg

p.s. Boersma8, you can incorporate all the pics in your original post, so I can take them away in my post (and you can take them away from the quote you did of it). That would be less loading time for the thread.
general Hoth

This scenario is hot on my playlist now! Cool
Good work boys. Wink
Thuddeus

As my contribution to this scenario. Here are links to the custom cards. Since the scenario is not strictly point based, some of the units don't have points on the cards. If you have a reasonable cost in mind or if you think I've mis-costed one of the other cards, feel free to discuss.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/BoforsM36ATGun.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/CKMMGTeam.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/MorsSMG.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/Schutzen.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/album...8/nolancluff/SamochodPancerny.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/album...8/nolancluff/PolishCavOfficer.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/PanzerI.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/mg34.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/KarabinppancATR.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/BoforsM36ATGun.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/ArmouredTrain.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/PolishSpotter.jpg

If someone knows how to post thumbnails instead of links, I 'll do that. I tried to post images but the page loaded dreadfully slow.
boersma8

Thuddeus wrote:
As my contribution to this scenario. Here are links to the custom cards. Since the scenario is not strictly point based, some of the units don't have points on the cards. If you have a reasonable cost in mind or if you think I've mis-costed one of the other cards, feel free to discuss.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/Bofors37mmATGun.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/CKMMGTeam.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/MorsSMG.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/Schutzen.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/album...8/nolancluff/SamochodPancerny.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/album...lancluff/PolishCavalryOfficer.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/PanzerI.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/mg34.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/KarabinppancATR.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/JU87BStuka.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n208/nolancluff/ArmouredTrain.jpg

If someone knows how to post thumbnails instead of links, I 'll do that. I tried to post images but the page loaded dreadfully slow.


Great work!

I've given the panzer I a short range AV attack of 3 (so now it's 3/2/2).

The armoured train has a long range AV attack of 7 and not 8 as you've posted. Then again, if that's what you want its stats to be, that's fine with me, but it's intended to be 7.

Thanks again! This thread is starting to look more and more professional!
boersma8

Oh by the way, I've corrected the name of the SA of the Bofors 37 mm AT gun from "Dug-in" to "Entrenched". Nothing else changes, it's just that it might be confusing, because normally speaking the dug in SA means taht a unit cannot move. The 37 mm CAN move, it's just that it loses its +1/+1 defense then.

Hope this helps!
Thuddeus

boersma8 wrote:
Oh by the way, I've corrected the name of the SA of the Bofors 37 mm AT gun from "Dug-in" to "Entrenched". Nothing else changes, it's just that it might be confusing, because normally speaking the dug in SA means taht a unit cannot move. The 37 mm CAN move, it's just that it loses its +1/+1 defense then.

Hope this helps!


Well, I'm leaving the cards as they are. The dug in vs. Entrenched is not significant, since the wording of the SA explains it well. As for the train, I have a well inked sharpie that will take care of that editing. I'm not sure how important that distinction will be.

BTW, I created OB sheets that show all the cards, at about 1/2 size, for each reinforcement phase on a single sheet which I printed on photo paper. They look great and will be very handy when playing.

I made them in Word 2007 and would be happy to share, but I don't know how to post them.
acs0424

Hm, can't wait to use this with new polish units.
boersma8

Thuddeus wrote:
boersma8 wrote:
Oh by the way, I've corrected the name of the SA of the Bofors 37 mm AT gun from "Dug-in" to "Entrenched". Nothing else changes, it's just that it might be confusing, because normally speaking the dug in SA means taht a unit cannot move. The 37 mm CAN move, it's just that it loses its +1/+1 defense then.

Hope this helps!


Well, I'm leaving the cards as they are. The dug in vs. Entrenched is not significant, since the wording of the SA explains it well. As for the train, I have a well inked sharpie that will take care of that editing. I'm not sure how important that distinction will be.

BTW, I created OB sheets that show all the cards, at about 1/2 size, for each reinforcement phase on a single sheet which I printed on photo paper. They look great and will be very handy when playing.

I made them in Word 2007 and would be happy to share, but I don't know how to post them.


Yes, I think it's pretty clear too. It's just a matter of being consistent.

Perhaps one of the moderators can help you out with posting the word document?

I don't think the other changes are extremely significant to gameplay. It's just that my regular playing buddy read somewhere that the panzer I was routinely equipped with a larger calibre bullet that were meant to pierce (thin)  armour. Since most MGs also have AV stats of 3/3/2 I thought the panzer I at least deserves 3 dice at short range then. I've made the same change for the MG34, but again, the scenario shouldn't really change too much with or without this extra die.

Thanks again for all your effort in improving this scenario! (That goes for all contributors!)

Please post your comments after one or more of you have gotten round to actually trying it out!
boersma8

I've noticed that the wording on the statcard of the Polish cavalry officer is wrong: It says"......At the beginning of your movement phase....", it should read: "...At the beginning of your MOVE...(in your assault phase), as written in the scenario and unit description (second post in this thread).

Guess it's fine like it is, but just don't play it wrong! It's not THAT restricted that you already need to be adjacent in your movement phase to benefit from the SA in the assualt phase... Cool
Thuddeus

boersma8 wrote:
I've noticed that the wording on the statcard of the Polish cavalry officer is wrong: It says"......At the beginning of your movement phase....", it should read: "...At the beginning of your MOVE...(in your assault phase), as written in the scenario and unit description (second post in this thread).

I was unclear about your meaning on that because strictly speaking there isn't usually a "move" during the assault phase. So your intent was that the affected unit must start the assault phase adjacent to the captain to gain strike and fade? I actually wrote it that way the first time and then amended it. I will fix that. In fact I will try to make all the adjustments over the next couple of days. If you have suggested point values for the Schutzen and the others I left point off of, let me know.
boersma8

Thuddeus wrote:
boersma8 wrote:
I've noticed that the wording on the statcard of the Polish cavalry officer is wrong: It says"......At the beginning of your movement phase....", it should read: "...At the beginning of your MOVE...(in your assault phase), as written in the scenario and unit description (second post in this thread).

I was unclear about your meaning on that because strictly speaking there isn't usually a "move" during the assault phase. So your intent was that the affected unit must start the assault phase adjacent to the captain to gain strike and fade? I actually wrote it that way the first time and then amended it. I will fix that. In fact I will try to make all the adjustments over the next couple of days. If you have suggested point values for the Schutzen and the others I left point off of, let me know.


You're right. I suppose you could leave out the word "move". So : "Friendly cavalry units that start adjacent to this unit may move at speed 2 in your assault phase after attacking". That is at least the intention of the rule.

I automatically wrote down "Move", since in practice we've been using it for the cavalrists to start adjacent to their officer and then move into an enemy unit's hex to use their hand to hand 9 attack ( which is when they are most effective, I'd say)and the "strike and fade"- as you call it- out of harm's way. Since their other SA (Determined charge) allows them to keep on moving after having been disrupted (or worse when using the expanded rules!) it's never really a problem to make it into an enemy unit's hex.

Cost for the Schützen unit: I'd say 6 or 7.
boersma8

acs0424 wrote:
Hm, can't wait to use this with new polish units.


Some of them we'll get for sure (Bofors 37 mm AT gun, Polish officer-not necessarily with the same SA, though, Schützen, Stuka etc.). Others we may still have to wait for. Again others are already available, but simply for other nations (Renault R -35 for France and Romania for example, but personally I have no problem whatsoever to allow the Poles to use one of those versions. It's exactly the same model, just a different paint scheme and symbol probably)
boersma8

[/quote] If you have suggested point values for the Schutzen and the others I left point off of, let me know.[/quote]

Schützen: 7 points
Samochod pancerny: 10 points
Panzer I: 9
Stuka: 15

These are the point values I'd attach to them. Of course you're free to alter them or to have a different opinion. I didn't create the scenario with a point value in mind. I'm sure the germans have many more points, but still the scenario is extremely challenging for them. Besides, for the scenario the 37 mm AT gun has two SAs ( Entrenched and superior camouflage)  which make it incredibly more effective than it would be in an average point battle. Also, and not in the least, because all the enemy armour is at most 2/2!
Thuddeus

So the AT guns get camo even after they've fired? That seems overly powerful. I can't imagine any large, loud gun staying hidden once it starts firing. Is there a historical precedence for this? Or is it necessary for scenario balance?
Thuddeus

I've updated all the cards with points and I've edited the wording on all of the SAs. I even gave the Bofors Superior Camo. If there are any other changes I missed, let me know.

The only difference from your suggestions was I made the Schutzen Infantry 6 points instead of 7. I think its defense is too low to warrant such a high cost.
boersma8

Thuddeus wrote:
So the AT guns get camo even after they've fired? That seems overly powerful. I can't imagine any large, loud gun staying hidden once it starts firing. Is there a historical precedence for this? Or is it necessary for scenario balance?


They certainly do. As far as I know that's how the rule always works, BTW. Whenever a sniper fires for instance, it doesn't mean it loses its superior camouflage SA as long as it stays in cover!

Remember, that in this particular scenario one AT gun actually represents many more than one (as do all units for that matter. There were hundreds of German tanks involved in the battle for instance, but that would be unplayable and not even I have that large a collection of units!  Laughing . Even though of course the Germans had a vague idea of where the AT guns were after they'd fired were, they were actually very well camouflaged,and dug-in so also in that respect there's a lot to say for the rule, and yes it's also got to do with game balance!

Hope this helps!
boersma8

Thuddeus wrote:
So the AT guns get camo even after they've fired? That seems overly powerful. I can't imagine any large, loud gun staying hidden once it starts firing. Is there a historical precedence for this? Or is it necessary for scenario balance?


BTW, as written in the scenario post, they DO lose the superior camouflage SA when playing with the optional "Hidden" rule (that is any AT gun that is actually placed as such). Perhaps this is where some of the confusion comes from??
boersma8

Thuddeus wrote:
I've updated all the cards with points and I've edited the wording on all of the SAs. I even gave the Bofors Superior Camo. If there are any other changes I missed, let me know.

The only difference from your suggestions was I made the Schutzen Infantry 6 points instead of 7. I think its defense is too low to warrant such a high cost.


Great! Thans again!

I was also doubting between six and seven points, for what it's worth  Laughing
acs0424

Does this us EF maps with the terrain cards?

I will certianly try this out, anybody got any extra polish people?
Thuddeus

This scenario will need lots and lots of proxies. Who has a Panzer I? I think I'll be using my v1 Stuarts. I think the hamburgler car will become the pancerny. The list goes on...


BTW. I added a spotter card to the list.
boersma8

acs0424 wrote:
Does this us EF maps with the terrain cards?

I will certianly try this out, anybody got any extra polish people?


One Eastfront map and two maps from the (second) starter set.Bear in mind that you'll be needing two copies of the latter, because you will need the same map twice, that is front and back.

What do you mean by extra Polish "people"???

Yes, you will need lots of terrain overlay pieces. I've used the ones that come with "memoir '44", but there are other options.
boersma8

Thuddeus wrote:
This scenario will need lots and lots of proxies. Who has a Panzer I? I think I'll be using my v1 Stuarts. I think the hamburgler car will become the pancerny. The list goes on...


BTW. I added a spotter card to the list.


Yes-for now- lots of proxies will be needed and I'm sure that even after the release of Early war, some will still be needed.

Of course if you don't have enough Panzergrenadires for instance, you can also replace these by nine Mausers posing as Panzergrenadiers. Everyone WILL have a panzer I (though not necessarily 7 of them right away!  Laughing ) after the release of Early war.

I'm glad there's at least a 37 mm AT gun, an anti-tank rifle etc. which come really close to the actual Polish units, so it could have been worse....

Anyone gotten round to giving the scenario a spin yet??
Thuddeus

boersma8 wrote:


Anyone gotten round to giving the scenario a spin yet??

Saturday.
Thuddeus

boersma8 wrote:

BTW, as written in the scenario post, they DO lose the superior camouflage SA when playing with the optional "Hidden" rule (that is any AT gun that is actually placed as such). Perhaps this is where some of the confusion comes from??

I wasn't confused. I just think that will make the AT guns unrealistically powerful. I will play them as written the first time, but I can see a long discussion about how to balance the scenario without making the  AT guns invisible. Then again, that's what you already did with the alternate rules.
boersma8

Thuddeus wrote:
boersma8 wrote:

BTW, as written in the scenario post, they DO lose the superior camouflage SA when playing with the optional "Hidden" rule (that is any AT gun that is actually placed as such). Perhaps this is where some of the confusion comes from??

I wasn't confused. I just think that will make the AT guns unrealistically powerful. I will play them as written the first time, but I can see a long discussion about how to balance the scenario without making the  AT guns invisible. Then again, that's what you already did with the alternate rules.


If I may make a suggestion: for scenario balance I wouldn't tamper with the AT-guns. Instead I'd give the Germans an (off-board)  fuel dump if you think they need it. The AT guns work fine (at least as intended!) the way they are! Read the links I've included in the top post!

We'll be playing this scenario yet again on Saturday as well!
Thuddeus

boersma8 wrote:

If I may make a suggestion: for scenario balance I wouldn't tamper with the AT-guns. Instead I'd give the Germans an (off-board)  fuel dump if you think they need it. The AT guns work fine (at least as intended!) the way they are! Read the links I've included in the top post!

We'll be playing this scenario yet again on Saturday as well!


We plan to play the scenario as written the first go 'round. After that we'll discuss tweaks and balance.
Thuddeus

We gave this a spin, this afternoon. I as the Germans faced off with two of my gaming buddies commanding the Poles.Turn one, the Germans probed forward on the East side of the map only to be stopped cold by the Polish Antitank units. The next turn, as my tanks rolled in, they got bogged down in the bottleneck on the east. I was able to race a couple of light unit off the north edge of the map, but the armored trains, combined with the hard-hitting AT guns, took their toll. The armor on the Pz Is and IIs was just too weak to stand up to the kind of pounding meted out by the overwatching and invisible AT guns. I was praying to win initiative on turn 5 so I could force my opponent to bring on his reinforcements first, but that was not to be. I crowded the west side of the board and tried to race units through the constricted road corridor, but, again, the overwatching AT guns took a heavy toll. When I conceded after turn 7, the score was Germans 25, Poles 70+. The German armor had been erased. The Wehrmacht infantry was holding strong, but had not chance to reach the North border and achieve a few victory points. Though my strategy was not brilliant, for instance I moved my turn 5 infantry up the west side, when they would have been more effective moving up the middle to deal with the AT guns, the difficult terrain combined with the overwhelming Polish defense, made maneuver very difficult for the Wehrmacht. The Poles had an easy time setting up killing zones that the German armor had to cross

More Later
boersma8

Thuddeus wrote:
We gave this a spin, this afternoon. I as the Germans faced off with two of my gaming buddies commanding the Poles.Turn one, the Germans probed forward on the East side of the map only to be stopped cold by the Polish Antitank units. The next turn, as my tanks rolled in, they got bogged down in the bottleneck on the east. I was able to race a couple of light unit off the north edge of the map, but the armored trains, combined with the hard-hitting AT guns, took their toll. The armor on the Pz Is and IIs was just too weak to stand up to the kind of pounding meted out by the overwatching and invisible AT guns. I was praying to win initiative on turn 5 so I could force my opponent to bring on his reinforcements first, but that was not to be. I crowded the west side of the board and tried to race units through the constricted road corridor, but, again, the overwatching AT guns took a heavy toll. When I conceded after turn 7, the score was Germans 25, Poles 70+. The German armor had been erased. The Wehrmacht infantry was holding strong, but had not chance to reach the North border and achieve a few victory points. Though my strategy was not brilliant, for instance I moved my turn 5 infantry up the west side, when they would have been more effective moving up the middle to deal with the AT guns, the difficult terrain combined with the overwhelming Polish defense, made maneuver very difficult for the Wehrmacht. The Poles had an easy time setting up killing zones that the German armor had to cross

More Later


We played it again yesterday too: Poles 35, Germans 64. So it's definitely possible to win as the Germans it just takes a different strategy. Hope you'll try it again. Don't want to give away how to do it just yet. OK, two tips: Don't exit units with attack values off the map prematurely (it's better to use them in combat) and stay out of reach of the AT guns / trains once you realize you won't get them off the map. At least that way the Poles won't score any points for them either ( of course it doesn't help topo much when you're behind but you won't lose by even more...)[/i][/u]
boersma8

As can be read above it's defintely possible to win as the Germans (It wasn't luck, just skill!). Therefore we've decided against adding a fuel dump to the German forces. It's still an optional rule however (The last playtest we played without!)
Thuddeus

Though rather complicated to set up, this is a great scenario. There are lots of problems to solve on both sides. Plentiful reinforcements means even when the scenario seems to be going badly for one side, there's reason to struggle on because reinforcements always change things up.

I plan to give this another try. I have some ideas to try with the Germans and that always makes a scenario interesting.

Excellent job, Boersma8!

BTW, does your nick read as Boer's Mate? I just saw that.
boersma8

Thuddeus wrote:

BTW, does your nick read as Boer's Mate? I just saw that.


If it does, that wasn't the intention. Boersma is simply my last name and 8 my favourite number.....

Thanks for the positive feedback and yes, it's definitely possible for both sides to win, although it does seem like the Germans have the steeper learning curve.
boersma8

I've added several degrees of victory/ defeat to the scenario post:

Degrees of victory/ defeat (point difference):

1-10 token victory/ defeat
10-20 minor victory/ defeat
21-30 major victory/ defeat
30+ crushing victory/ defeat
Thuddeus

Here's a pic of our last battle. The Polish tanks were a mash-up of any light tanks we could find.

T-70's stood in for Pz I's.

The large tan spot in the lower center of the pic is glare off the map lamination.

You can see in the upper center that I tried to use Sd Kfz 251's to kill the Polish AT guns. I failed.[/img]
boersma8

That is the way to go, that is to try and kill the Polish AT guns (some of them at least) with your recon vehicles, BMWs and (loaded)  halftracks ( a spotter on a halftrack can be very effective too!) before you try and make a go for it with your German vehicles.

What was the final score?
Lowecore

wow, great job guys. Way to come together on a project. Very impressive.
general Hoth

Thuddeus wrote:
Here's a pic of our last battle. The Polish tanks were a mash-up of any light tanks we could find.

T-70's stood in for Pz I's.

The large tan spot in the lower center of the pic is glare off the map lamination.

You can see in the upper center that I tried to use Sd Kfz 251's to kill the Polish AT guns. I failed.[/img]


Awesome pic! Cool

Nice scenario.
Thuddeus

boersma8 wrote:
That is the way to go, that is to try and kill the Polish AT guns (some of them at least) with your recon vehicles, BMWs and (loaded)  halftracks ( a spotter on a halftrack can be very effective too!) before you try and make a go for it with your German vehicles.


This was a pic from our first, and so far only, play. Because I'm brain damaged, I didn't have infantry in most of the half-tracks, which halved my firepower. Live and learn, and relearn, and relearn
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