Archive for Axis & Allies ForuMINI Specialised in the World War II Axis & Allies Miniatures and War At Sea Games
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herky80
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Scenario to Test: IJN vs. USNWhen I finally get the stacks of books off the table, I'm going to try a standard 200pt. game: IJN vs. USN using well-rounded fleets with some killer IJN combos. Hopefully the IJN's complex plan works...
USN Fleet:
Barb (12) Leads the way trying to get to a capital ship.
Washington (56)
Hoel (9)
Will go after middle objective.
Cleveland (16)
Fletcher (7)
This group will be flexible.
Saratoga (26)
Hellcat (10) Escorts bombers
Wildcat (7) Defends the flattop
Dauntless (13)
Laffey (9)
Carrier group stays in the back as always.
Catalina (7) Shadows for airstrikes and attacks subs
Avenger x2 (28) Land-based until a spot opens on the carrier.
Looks like a pretty tough nut to crack, but it wasn't made with much ingenuity- just a little of everything. I made it to be well-rounded to test various IJN builds and combos. Notice the lack of initiative except for the Washington. You could substitute it for the Massachusetts and get no initiative bonus but with +1 armor rating.
IJN Fleet:
I-19 (13) Protects the fleet from submarines or goes after capital ships.
Yamashiro (43)
Akitsuki (10)
This group will try to get within range 2 of the enemy battleship.
Yahagi (14)
Shokaku (20)
Zeke x2 (12) Escort and CAP
Judy (12)
This group will stay in the back.
Tone (23)
Akitsuki (10)
This group will also stay in the back, but not too far back…
Emily (10) Shadows for airstrikes and attacks subs
Airbase:
Judy x2 (24)
Kamikaze x3 (9)
The strategy is based on winning initiative and stacking Air strike bonuses. The Yahagi and destroyers will provide +3 initiative. Winning initiative will not only give the IJN movement advantage, but will also give the Yamashiro +2 dice at range 2 or less. The Judys will get bonuses to bring their normal 9 bomb attack to 13. The kamikazes will get the bonuses only from Emily and Tone as they are fighters, not dive bombers, bringing their bomb attacks from 9 to 11.
Emily +1 (Shadowing)
Tone +1 (Scout Cruiser)
Shokaku +2 (Expert Bomber 2)
I think it is going to come down to US air superiority. They are going to field a Hellcat, Dauntless and Avenger x2 attack on an unlucky sector. The Avenger’s Battleship Killer SA will be used against the Yamashiro/Akitsuki combo, which will throw a 7, 5, 5 AA against them. The Zeke’s Surprise SA will add to the Shokaku’s Dogfighter SA, giving it 9AA. The 9 and 7 AAs will be used against the Avengers while the 5AAs will go against the Hellcat and Dauntless (in vain no doubt)
The IJN will attack with Judy x3 and a Zeke against the Washington to eliminate its ER4 that it would use against the closing Yamashiro. Shokaku will base Judy x2 and a Zeke while the other Zeke and Judy will return to the airbase to re-arm for turn 3. On turn 2, the Judy x2 and a Zeke will go after the Saratoga while any Kamikazes that are available will attack the Cleveland, attempting to eliminate the ER4 threat. Unless only 1 Kamikaze is available, in which it will not be used yet. Turn 3 will hopefully include some kamikazes to finish off the Saratoga or Washington. The Cleveland/Fletcher combo will be mainly ignored until the larger threats have been neutralized.
Like IJN plans during the war, the strategy is complex and depends on a lot to happen…
I posted this scenario in the hopes that someone will try it, as I won’t be able to for a few weeks…
I know the IJN look a bit weak, but there isn't much shuffling that can occur here. More Judys would be nice, but at the expense of what? And remember, it is being used against the Hellcat/Avenger combo... If nothing else, these are two great builds: logical IJN combos and a well-balanced USN fleet to test against.
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IJN Fuso
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I test played this scenario. The Japanese won the 1st round, but were extremely lucky to have done so. I give the credit to my 7 year old, who rolls much better than me.
Anyway - I think the +5 you're assuming for init for this Japanese fleet won't actually come to pass. The flag values of various ships don't stack. This fleet has 3 ships with flag 1, plus +2 for the DDs and Flotilla leader, so it seems like this fleet gets +3, while the US gets +1 for Washington. However, the +2 difference was enough, as the Japanese won initiative in all but 1 turn. This made a huge difference.
Turn 1 highlighsts - all 3 Kamakazes rolled high, so they were all available. This is the best possible scenario, and the Japanese attacked the Washington with 3 Judys and a Zeke Escort, while the 3 Kamakazis went after Cleveland. The US countered by sending the SBD after Tone, and the 2 Avengers after Yamashiro, escorted by a Wildcat. The Hellcat went after the Judys. The PBY spotted Yamashiro, while the Emily spotted Washington, as did Tone. Turn 1 air results were pretty incredible. The Japanese managed to abort both Avengers and the SBD. The SBD pressed and scored a hit on Tone. The US rolled pretty awful against the Judys. 2 got through (against 8 dice and 9 dice and 6 dice!) They both scored a hit on Washington, so on turn 1, Washington is down to 3 hull points! Of the 3 Kamakazi attacks, 1 managed to hit Cleveland. So after Turn 1, Tone has 1 damage, Washington 2 and Cleveland 1.
On Turn 2, the Avangers were aborted again (Japanese saw "whew!") but a lone Judy attacking Cleveland was splashed. The PBY managed to score a hit on I-19. There was no Surface combat.
Turn 3, Washington and Hoel claim the right most objective. They are attacked by 2 Judys. 1 is aborted, pressed, and rolled a 2 while the other missed. Both Emily and PBY missed thier subs, while once again, all attacking US planes were aborted. The SBD rolled a 3 on press, so no damage was done. But the Surface combat was interesting, as Tone and Yahagi scored hits on Cleveland, sending her down. Cleveland missed in return.
Turn 4: This is the 1st turn the Japanese lost initiative, and it almost cost them the game. Tone and Yahagi could have moved into the middle objective, but then would have had to deal with Washington, on the right side of the map, and out of range of Yamashiro, who was claiming the left objective. So Tone and Yahagi retreated. This left the middle open for Laffy, all alone since Cleveland sank, which moved to the objective. Laffy was range 3 from Tone and Yahagi, and range 1 from crippled I-19. US air once again massed against Yamashiro, while the Japanese sent 2 its 2 Judy's against Washington. PBY killed I-19, while Emily missed Laffy. 1 Judy got through on a press and managed to score another hit on Washington. One Avenger made it through to Yamashiro, but whiffed on all torps! Tone managed to score a hit on Laffy, but Yahagi missed. The Japs had 2 long lances to keep the objective (and the game) in play, and managed to score a hit!
Turn 5, the US is desperate at this time, as the whole Japanese fleet closes in on the middle objective. The US air is once again aborted, while 1 pressing Judy gets through again to score another hit on Washington - now crippled. This is critical because Washington score 13 hits on Yamashiro, and would have criticaled it if 4s counted during the surface phase. The Yamashiro finished the job, sending washington down, along with Hoel. Hoel managed to score 1 more torp hit on Yamashiro, but was sunk by Tone and Yahagi.
So the Japanese claimed the center objective and the game.
I expect if played again, the US could easily win. The Japanese AA rolls were pretty incredible. If the Avengers could get through, they should have made quick work of Yamishiro or Shokaku.
But 1 thing is sure. 13 bomb dice are are a threat to a BB. Winning initiative is also a huge bonus. Judy + Shokaku + Emily + Tone make for a nice complex combo.
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herky80
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Thanks for testing the scenario and giving a nice battlereport! I messed up on the initiative bonus stacking rule- I got a little carried away.
The IJN rolled superb AA, which made the difference it seems. Would you say the USN would win 2 out of 3 encounters with these builds?
The JETS (Judy, Emily, Tone, Shokaku) tactic is certainly good enough to build a fleet I think. I decided to pair it up with the Yamashiro-Yahagi initiative tactic, although the two don't have to work in conjunction.
I thought the Hellcat/Avenger combo was unstoppable, so thanks for testing my theory...
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babs
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| herky80 wrote: | Thanks for testing the scenario and giving a nice battlereport! I messed up on the initiative bonus stacking rule- I got a little carried away.
The IJN rolled superb AA, which made the difference it seems. Would you say the USN would win 2 out of 3 encounters with these builds?
The JETS (Judy, Emily, Tone, Shokaku) tactic is certainly good enough to build a fleet I think. I decided to pair it up with the Yamashiro-Yahagi initiative tactic, although the two don't have to work in conjunction.
I thought the Hellcat/Avenger combo was unstoppable, so thanks for testing my theory... |
They really rolled awesome AA. I had a similar group of a Yamashiro and Akitsuki which were harried by 2 avengers and were sunk on turn 3 already...
Guess you roll good.
Babs out!
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IJN Fuso
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My 7 year old son rolls well. He was Japan - with a little help. I was the US. I will play the scenario again and see what happens. I suspect that Yamashiro will be sunk more often than not. 5 or 10 torps is just out of control. The one time the Avenger made it through, I rolled 5 misses. I don't expect that to happen often.
I haven't played enough to know for sure, but I feel a few Avengers could rule the board.
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IJN Fuso
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I played your Japanese fleet again - This time against a live opponant - who brought a BB heavy fleet! I was up against an Iowa AND Massachusets.
Also - I traded in a judy and the 3 Kamikazes for 2 Vals. It seemed better to have planes that could come back to life and didn't suffer from that uncertain arrival SA.
Anyway, my opponant was light on air, and so the 1st 2 turns, I managed to score 2 hits on the Mass. But I lost 2 Judy's in the process. 2 turns later, My DDs we able to make a run at the Iowa - which was escortless at the time thanks to my air. They scored 3 LL hits to sink the Iowa over 2 turns, but were wiped on in the process. Not a bad trade. However, before the Iowa died, it vitaled Yamashiro. Ouch.
I rolled pretty poorly with the Vals, and I never got any additional hits on Mass - which just mopped my Yamishiro-less fleet up. I needed some lucky LL hits from Tone and Yahagi, but didn't manage any.
I love the JETS combo, but its pricey. In a 300 point game, this fleet + Mushashi and some additional subs would be tough to beat.
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wilt57
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Re: Scenario to Test: IJN vs. USN | herky80 wrote: | I-19 (13) Protects the fleet from submarines or goes after capital ships.
Yamashiro (43)
Akitsuki (10)
This group will try to get within range 2 of the enemy battleship.
Yahagi (14)
Shokaku (20)
Zeke x2 (12) Escort and CAP
Judy (12)
This group will stay in the back.
Tone (23)
Akitsuki (10)
This group will also stay in the back, but not too far back…
Emily (10) Shadows for airstrikes and attacks subs
Airbase:
Judy x2 (24)
Kamikaze x3 (9)
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I-19 goes for capital ships. This unit has range three and is too useful to "waste" in a sector in which the other sub can fire back. With the set 2 Isokaze, Akitsuki, and Emily the IJN finally has some units that are useful against subs, without relying on I-19s like in set 1.
Yamashiro and Akitsuki. The Yama's vital is pretty low for close quarters combat. I know you get Masked Guns, but the vital is still 13. Every USN BB has at least 14 vital. Versus the California and Tennessee everyone gets 11 dice and you only give up one vital. As you close, these ships benefit more, even if you win initiative. Versus the rest of the USN BBs it goes downhill very quickly. Akitsuki cannot be hit by USN BBs at range 3 (with secondaries), at 2 they can. Since both range 2 and 3 LL attacks are 1 die, stay at 3.
Yahagi and Shokaku. Yep, initiative and sub threat for carrier in the back.
Tone and Akitsuki. Thats the crappy thing about Tone. LL torps and pretty good guns and 7 AA, but you don't wanna lose Scout Cruiser. It is a lot of points to sit in the back row. I like to bring her up. If they go after her to get rid of Scout Cruiser good! They could be hitting more important targets and she can hit back too.
Emily. Great unit for the IJN! It's a Catalina x 2. You pay for it as well, but Defensive Armament, Shadowing, and Loiter FTW. Have nothing to add here.
Airbase. Back-up Judys are good, but what to do with the one on the carrier when the others are re-arming? Just don't send it out alone. I have found the Kamikazes are great for filling in air sectors due to lost aircraft.
Good fleet. A little BB light without TBs or sub swarm to fill in. Hope the LLs hit. Should do well against cruiser/carrier builds. Lack of heavy units to challenge objectives, but this is typical of IJN builds without the Yamatos.
wilt57
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Snippersly
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OK- We played this out and have a couple questions:
1) In the scenario, the planes are assigned specific roles. For example, in our game, the Helcat had to escort the bombers. However, when no enemy aircraft attacked, can I use the Laffey's Radar Picket ability and switch sectors?
2) The IJN player's aircraft. He has two Judys that start on the land base and a pair of zeros on the carrier. Can he switch the planes around after the first air return phase, or do the planes have to go back to where they originated from. The US planes can move from land to carrier is there is an opening...what about the IJN?
3) The carriers on both sides are in the back...do they have to stay behind or can they move past the battle ship units?
Thanks...
Snippersly
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IJN Fuso
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| Snippersly wrote: | OK- We played this out and have a couple questions:
1) In the scenario, the planes are assigned specific roles. For example, in our game, the Helcat had to escort the bombers. However, when no enemy aircraft attacked, can I use the Laffey's Radar Picket ability and switch sectors?
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Yes. In fact, the planes can do any mission you want - the assignments are simply strategy suggestions. Personally, I prefer to escort with Wildcats, as they give the same escort bonus, and save Hellcats to go after enemy bombers.
| Snippersly wrote: |
2) The IJN player's aircraft. He has two Judys that start on the land base and a pair of zeros on the carrier. Can he switch the planes around after the first air return phase, or do the planes have to go back to where they originated from. The US planes can move from land to carrier is there is an opening...what about the IJN?
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Each air return phase you may land any eligable plane on a carrier if there is room. You can start on land and land on a carrier and vice versa. Keep track of which planes are on the carriers, though. If that carrier is sunk, you need to roll to see if the airgroup is destroyed as well.
| Snippersly wrote: |
3) The carriers on both sides are in the back...do they have to stay behind or can they move past the battle ship units?
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They can move anywhere. I suggest you try to avoid the big guns of BBs and cruisers and torps from subs. Most of the time the safest place on the map is in the back.
But some carriers are actually good cruisers, too. Saratoga and Graf Zepplin can go toe to toe with just about all enemy cruisers on thier own.
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herky80
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What Fuso said.
I edited the original post to fix the initiative bonus- the Yahagi and destroyers get a total of +3, this does not add to another ship's bonus.
Be sure to know that a Kamikaze gets bonuses as a FIGHTER, not BOMBER, even though it is sort of bombing a target. But like I said above the Kamikaze gets the bonus from Tone and Emily because it is targeting a ship, but expert bomber bonuses.
Feel free to alter the above strategy if you have a better plan. The tactics are not exactly ground-breaking, but some wise ways to use the fleets. My intent was to see how the IJN fleet would match up against a balanced USN fleet that is logically used by a beginning player. Not naive novice, but logical and straight forward.
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