Roon
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S-boats and subs denying objectives...In the outdated rules book it says that subs and some small boats (like S-Boats with "No Sea Control") can be used to help DENY objectives.
I know they can't claim objectives. But the wording they use is confusing.
Do units that can't claim objectives count when being in or adjacent to not allow a capture? Or does the book saying "deny" just mean they can attack and hopefully sink a ship before it claims one?
Example: Opposing Nachi is on objective. My Casabiance is adjacent to it. Turn ends. Does he get the objective?
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Diamondback
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IIRC, he does. Even if you get a lucky spread and send Nachi to Davy Jones' Locker that turn.
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jfkziegler
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Subs cannot contest objectives.
However, units with No Sea Control can. That is stated in the Special Abilities section of the Clarifications document.
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Roon
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That brings up a new question then... The Nachi that is uncontested will not score the objective if it gets destroyed by the sub?
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Diamondback
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IIRC, even if you kill his Nachi with your sub, as long as you have nothing that can contest there that turn he gets the objective.
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Roon
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Thanks for the clarifications guys. Mmmm more strategies to ponder...
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jfkziegler
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| Diamondback wrote: | | IIRC, even if you kill his Nachi with your sub, as long as you have nothing that can contest there that turn he gets the objective. |
I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly here, Diamondback. If the Nachi were to be destroyed by the sub, it wouldn't be around to take the objective, so how would the opponent get the objective?
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Diamondback
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Because there was nothing there to contest it.
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ehenry0623
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Yeah but there's nothing there to claim it either. Seems to me you need a ship, a living ship ( to quote john crighton ) to take an objective.
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Diamondback
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Of course, there's a good chance I'm mistaken. When in doubt, that's what the "official" board is for... try to make the jokers at Wizard$ of the Ca$h earn our money...lol
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Greyh Seer
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You don't check to see if ships are present at objectives until the "End of Turn" phase. So there is no way a ship can take an objective on the same turn that is destroyed on.
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swarbs
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| Greyh Seer wrote: | | You don't check to see if ships are present at objectives until the "End of Turn" phase. So there is no way a ship can take an objective on the same turn that is destroyed on. |
Yep, this is correct. Objectives are claimed after a ship that would be destroyed is taken off of the board, no matter what phase it was killed in.
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Aquarius
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Swarbs is right.
As usual.
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swarbs
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This time all I did was copy of Greyh Seer, it's easy to be right after someone else has already come up with the answer.
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WilliamHenryHarrison
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| jfkziegler wrote: | Subs cannot contest objectives.
However, units with No Sea Control can. That is stated in the Special Abilities section of the Clarifications document. |
Howdy,
I just re-read the new errata document on the WOTC site and I cannot find "Subs cannot contest objectives" anywhere--not even in the Special Abilities section. Where in the rules is this stated? I'm asking because I don't think anyone will believe me unless I can show it in black & white.
Thanks as always for your help guys!
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Okie
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It's not that sub's cannot contest an objective but that they cannot take the objective. They can always contest it. They cannot deny the objective to an enemy by just being in or next to the objective, they would have to sink the enemy to deny them.
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WilliamHenryHarrison
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| Okie wrote: | | It's not that sub's cannot contest an objective but that they cannot take the objective. They can always contest it. They cannot deny the objective to an enemy by just being in or next to the objective, they would have to sink the enemy to deny them. |
I'm not sure I understand the distinction between when a sub "contests" an objective and when it "denies" the objective from another ship. If something is being "contested" is it not the case that neither side can win it until one of the contenders is no longer present to "contest"?
An example might help me to better understand:
Submarine HMS Truculent and Cruiser Aoba both occupy a sector with an objective. How does possession of the objective resolve at the end of the turn?
(1) Japanese cruiser Aoba cannot claim the objective because HMS Truculent is present to contest the objective.
OR
(2) Japanese cruiser Aoba claims objective despite the presence of an active enemy submarine within the sector.
?
Outcome (1) makes the most sense to me. If Outcome (2) is true, can you point me to an explicit statement of such rules? I'm not trying to be a rules jerk, please don't misunderstand my post; I just doubt anyone will believe me otherwise.
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weedsrock2
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This is without doubt the most asked question in WaS. And it has been answered many times on the WotC board.
Subs do not contest objectives. Nor can they take objectives.
Page 7 of the Advanced Rulebook:
" Claiming Objectives - To contral an objective sector, you must have one or more Ships in the sector, and you opponent can't have any Ships in or adjacent to the sector. Submarines and Aircraft don't count for controlling objective sectors (although these units can help you deny control of a sector by sinking your opponet's Ships)."
This answers both questions in this thread. First - the first sentence says "Ships" - period. The second sentence says Submarines and Aircraft don't count. So subs and aircraft do not deny you control of the objective nor can they take (control) an objective. The second sentence is just a clarification of the first.
Now the part that confuses everyone. The parenthetical statement is just a clarification of the second sentence. It is just saying that submarines and aircraft have a chance of keeping your ship from claiming the objective IF they sink your ship before the end of the turn. So that answers the original question of this thread.
WotC_Huscarl has answered this many times on the board. But he stubbornly maintains the text is correct as written and does not need to be clarified. It will be interesting to see if they change the wording in the new rulebook anyway. The parenthetical statement was meant to help clarify the rule, but it seems to confuse instead.
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Tincancaptain
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The reason that units like PT boats and Auxiliaries can "contest" objectives is because they're unit type "ship" however because they have the SA "No sea control" they cannot claim the objective. Subs are unit type submarine and can neither claim nor contest objectives.
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WilliamHenryHarrison
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| weedsrock2 wrote: |
Page 7 of the Advanced Rulebook:
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Thank you, Weeds & TincanCaptain! I don't know how I missed it when it was right there in the rulebook.
Well, this will certainly add a new dynamic to the game--finally a little bright spot when my Brits are facing down a pack of U-66s!
Once again, my thanks gentlemen!
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weedsrock2
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| WilliamHenryHarrison wrote: | | weedsrock2 wrote: |
Page 7 of the Advanced Rulebook:
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Thank you, Weeds & TincanCaptain! I don't know how I missed it when it was right there in the rulebook.
Well, this will certainly add a new dynamic to the game--finally a little bright spot when my Brits are facing down a pack of U-66s!
Once again, my thanks gentlemen! |
Don't feel bad. As i said, I think everyone does a mental 'double take' when they read that section. Not that it is wrong, but having a rule, then a clarification sentence, then a clarification of the clarification is just naturally confusing.
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