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| drittal |
been a long time, but I have a couple things to say...Number One: Why are we getting the Arizona? She had NO impact on the war other than sinking the first day. Give me Texas!Number Two: Uss Intrepid. SWEET! Rich Baker said in his blog the prototype was huge. I modelled it on my own and it WAS huge compared to the Big E and was was much wider than Saratoga. So those are my general things to say. Later all |
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| weedsrock2 |
You can go to the following thread and read the long debate on the Arizona topic!
http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/ftopic4626-0-0-asc-.php |
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| Okie |
I'll have to agree! I'd rather have the Texas. But she will come. Okie | ||||
| drittal |
reads like a lot of people want the US to have a moderate power BB. The defenders of AZ say she is iconic, that she did see action, that she is technically a museum ship, that Japan went through a lot of trouble to sink her.
First, yes she is iconic for TRAGEDY! The only reason she is iconic is she sunk in american waters with a horrific loss of life. She was too badly damaged to refloat and reconstruct like many of the other BB's sunk that day. Now THAT is Iconic. Yep, she saw action too... The attack commenced at 0753, Arizona's Magazines explode at 0810 and is on the bottom nine minutes later. So max of 26 minutes of action... She is a memorial, not a museum ship. You can walk the decks of the Texas. Japan went through a lot of trouble to sink Lex, Sara and Big E. Unfortunately for them, they weren't in port yet. The BB's were secondary targets. Now having said all that, I will like the AZ in WaS. I have played Missouri and Iowa only once and love using TN, WA, Dunkerque... I just would have rather WaS made the TX or Penn instead. |
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| Hawker Hurricane |
I think I'd prefer something in the Colorado class, myself. Like USS Maryland or West Virginia. Give me two of those, and I'll set up Surigao Strait (With two Californias and two Tennessees to be the other 4 battleships...) | ||||
| Okie |
I made the Maryland and the Virginia out of 2 Tennesse's, am waiting for the Texas and Colorado Class. | ||||
| lotharlutjens |
Welcome back Drittal, long time no talk, give me a PM and we'll catch up. | ||||
| PrideoftheRoyalNavy |
Drittal! | ||||
| Bondboy |
on the flip side we have people who were happy to see the Tirpitz though she didn't really do much, people clammoring all the time for the Shinano which didn't do anything, we've got the German dreadnoughts entering into the equation, it seems like the Arizona is hardly the low man on the totem pole when it comes to whether or not she should be included.
But bottom line, her sinking became one of the iconic moments of the war so it seems fitting she is included. After all, to a certain extent, had the Bismark not sunk the Hood, would the Bismark be that much different from the Arizona? Afterall she participated in 1 engagement which, outside of the battle with the Hood and POW, she was mostly just target practice for the British (albeit difficult to hunt down and capture, but still her firing outside of the aforementioned engagement wasn't really much). |
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| admiral_tee |
There is the valid argument that the Schleswig Holstein fired the first shots of World War Two. Now whether her term of service was any more/less effective that the AZ is probably moot when considering the above! Oh, and have any of you guys have seen the video of her shelling the hell out of the Polish port of Westerplatte? Now thats an impressive show case of what happens when you let a (aging) capital ship loose upon a unsuspecting port. Buildings collapsing, crap flying everywhere. Here it is http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=NgENjoWBFf4 Tee |
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| swarbs |
I agree that Texas would have been a good counterpart to Schleswig-Holstien, both old, both slow and good mainly for shore-bombardment. Why many believe Texas, a unit nearly as unsuited for a deul with modern battleships as Schleswig-Holstien herself, is better suited to a game portraying major fleet engagements is a bit of a mystery to me. Every ship has their partisans, Arizona among them, so I figure we might as well just accept with open arms all those plastic vessels that come our way. | ||||
| Captain Morevo |
As one of the chief opponents of the Arizona's inclusion, I can honestly say, at this point, it doesn't matter what those of us on the opposition think, what's done is done. I stand by what I said before, I will not, ever, use the Arizona in combat except as the USS Pennsylvania pre-Conversion | ||||
| weedsrock2 |
Hear, Hear! Pass the beer and pretzels please. 
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| drittal |
Done 
Hello! As for the cases of the Tirpitz, Graf Zep, Schleswig-H, etc... they were needed for gameplay balance. What is left for Germany and Italy for BB's? And in higher point contests you MUST have Air Power. 100-200 pt, not so much. And Tirpitz may not have the greatest stats of the war but she did as much a Yamato before both were sunk by air power. She created fear, and lots of it. The fear of her caused the scattering of convoy pq-17 which lead to the eventual sinking of 22 of the 35 ships in that convoy. Victorious, Duke of York, and Washington were on station in case she did sortie. She was a major threat, AZ was not. Does this game need another USN BB? No. Not to say TX was a major threat either. She just did alot of work for a tired old girl. The same tired old girl who escorted convoys in BOTH world wars, DID fire her main guns in anger, and is the last surviving Dreadnought. If you ask me the AZ is in SET 3 for her name only, to sell units. Sad but True. |
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| lotharlutjens |
I have seen the video of Schleswig Holstein firing the first shots, pretty impressive for an old, washed up, no account, worhless piece of junk, obsolete, battleship.
But she still was a Battleship. Watch the Video...... |
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| drittal |
I didn't realize her 11" guns were Quick Fire! Did you see the size of those casings?!!! A golden girl getting her just due! Now I want to play her mini in every axis build, but won't because of her speed. 
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| mutobear |
the Arizona was a Pennsylvania class battle ship. If anyone doesnt want her in their kit I will gladly place her in mine | ||||
| cealigh the MadScot |
Hey hey Drittal, welcome back.
If yer ever down in Tucson way check out the Pima Air and Space museum. They have an SR71 in one of the big hangers. The company I just went to work for had their Christmas party there and some of the tables were setup under one of the wings of the SR71 and a Gooney Bird that was suspended from the ceiling. |
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| seisen |
I dont mind the Arizona at all. Afterall, historically, the game has made some fun concessions with regard to unit choices so no biggie. I have to admit though, thinking of the Arizona, makes me giddy when considering all the conversion prospects! 
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| jfkziegler |
Agreed. That's the main reason I think the Arizona was a good inclusion. It brings me much closer to my goal of every U.S. battleship. |
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| weedsrock2 |
Although I was not super excited about the Arizona, her fans on this board have convinced me it will probably be a pretty decent lower point battleship for the US. Beyond that, you have made your own airtight case why the Arizona should be in Set III. If it is so popular as an iconic ship that it will sell the game, then that must mean it is in high demand. Therefore if we expect RB and WotC to respond to the desires of the fan base then they are doing exactly what we are asking of them. Nothing sad about that at all. |
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| weedsrock2 |
lotharlutjens wrote: "I have seen the video of Schleswig Holstein firing the first shots, pretty impressive for an old, washed up, no account, worhless piece of junk, obsolete, battleship." Guys, this is one of the reasons I don't get too hung up on the history of a ship 'justifying' whether it should be included in the game or not. I have seen that video several times over the years and each time I think "What a cowardly, low-life assignment to carry out." Coming into a port under peacetime conditions and then opening up on a small, lightly armed garrison in a sneak attack. There is nothing very impressive about that to me. But I am just fine with Schleswig-Holstein coming into the game. It was a part of the war. I seriously doubt it will be a very useful piece in a standard WaS competitive game. But I am glad RB is putting in a mix of all kinds of ships. Some 'power units' for the 'power gamers' and some 'historical' units for the naval simulation and collector crowd. It is smart marketing. And I am personally interested in both 'markets. 
I think the war record of a ship is obviously most useful for giving it unique 'flavor' special abilities. Not for justifying whether or not it should be 'allowed' in the game. Just like all of us in life, every ship, aircraft, and crew had to play the 'hand' they were dealt in the war. Whether it was getting into the thick of battle, sailing on endless patrols in backwaters, convoying or air ferrying supplies and soldiers, or acting as a 'fleet in being.' They all did what was asked of them. |
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| Diamondback |
Actually, the declaration of war was supposed to come an hour before, but the diplomats couldn't get it translated and to FDR's desk fast enough. Sources say when Yamamoto heard what happened he was HACKED, to put it mildly... | ||||
| lotharlutjens |
Give me a break Weeds, I was in no way trying to make a political statement or trying to justify or glorify Germany's sudden attack on Poland, I was simply pointing out that for an old girl she still packed some impressive punches, and then I was poking fun at the people who don't want Schleswig-Holstein in the set because she won't be the omnipotent beast that they'd like. C'mon man, it is a war game after all. | ||||
| Captain Morevo |
Not like FDR didn't know the attack was coming, practically wanted it to come, and was asking for it since the late 1930s. I mean seriously, they dispatched the new fleet and moved the old fleet into harbor. It was a nice fat excuse to get the United States into war by proactively pissing the other nations off so much that they would be the ones who attacked first allowing the United States to look like the Glorious Avenger to the allies. Same thing Wilson did with Lusitania, he allowed her to be loaded with arms, he knew there was unrestricted submarine warfare, and as such, knew it would cause war. |
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| weedsrock2 |
Actually, that isn't the part that I was really 'harping' on. I said I had no problem with SH being in the set. Heck, we could say that about half the Japanese fleet that attacked Pearl Harbor. It is all the arguments that "this ship deserves to be in a set more than that ship because..." that are very subjective and endless to me. I would like to see all the ship classes in there eventually. I have been saying for two years now that I think the real underlying issue when we start arguing about whether a ship deserves to be in a set is really the fear that a ship we personally want won't get made before WotC stops making the game. So we each want our own personal favorites made now 'just in case'. There are obvious reasons why that fear is not totally unfounded. But it really has nothing to do with whether or not a particular ship or aircraft had a more interesting career. It is really that it is 'my favorite ship and I want it.'
I have no problem with that. Just say so! I would like to see the USCGC Ingham simply because I sailed on her. She would make a slow, relatively low value DE with limited game value. But I want her anyway! 
And did I mention I want it NOW! Not after some stupid ships like Arizona or Schleswig-Holstein.
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| Schlachtschiff Bismarck |
the only thing that might make s-h a decent ship is if it gets something like infiltrator that can fire on the first turn, other than that it will make an excellent convoy escort. |
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