RAEVSKI
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Sea Mines RulesPlease comment on these, I'm building a scenario and need mine rules.
Sea Mine Rules:
-Mines can be placed on a map square by Minelayers (5 squares),Destroyers (2 squares, no torpedoes),Subs (1 square, no torpedoes) or by scenario already placed.
-It takes 1 stationary move to lay mines ( minelayers can't fight while laying mines or lay mines while under fire)
-It take two moves to remove mines.(minesweepers only)
- Mines affect ships and subs. (I know they are different, but i like things simple) MAS, PT and similar boats are immune to mines.
- mines may be map marked by owner of mines ( Hidden), or marked for all to see.
- Any vessel moving into or stationary in a mined square has to test
Test:
1d6 - 4+ hit by mine
Damage 2 points or
Damage 1d6 1-3 1 hull point
4-5 2 hull points
6 3 hull points
Torpedo defence affects damage
What do you think?
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Blackeagle
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Re: Sea Mines Rules | RAEVSKI wrote: | | -It takes 1 stationary move to lay mines ( minelayers can't fight or be fired on while laying mines) |
Not being able to shoot while minelaying makes sense, but why can't they be fired on?
| RAEVSKI wrote: | | -It take two moves to remove mines. |
Is this limited to minesweeping vessels? Most minesweepers are pretty slow, either speed 1 or speed 2 with Slow. Do they take two turns to sweep a sector?
| RAEVSKI wrote: | | - Mines affect ships and subs. (I know they are different, but i like things simple) |
What about PT boats? I'd say that units that can't get hit by torpedoes aren't affected by mines.
| RAEVSKI wrote: | | - mines may be map marked by owner of mines. |
This isn't real clear. Are mines hidden or are they placed on the map as soon as they're laid? If they're hidden how do you detect them?
| RAEVSKI wrote: | - Any vessel moving into or stationary in a mined square has to test
Test:
1d6 - 4+ hit by mine
Damage 1d6 1-3 1 hull point
4-5 2 hull points
6 3 hull points
Torpedo defence affects damage |
I'd keep things simple. No damage roll, 2 points of damage on a hit (adjusted for torpedo defense).
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EvilKobra
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I seem to remember ericjohn's Operation Sea Lion scenario included some mine rules which were pretty much spot on. Maybe you could have a look at those.
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RAEVSKI
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Re: Sea Mines Rules | Blackeagle wrote: | | RAEVSKI wrote: | | -It takes 1 stationary move to lay mines ( minelayers can't fight or be fired on while laying mines) |
Not being able to shoot while minelaying makes sense, but why can't they be fired on? I was presumming they will have to take evasive action.
| RAEVSKI wrote: | | -It take two moves to remove mines. |
Is this limited to minesweeping vessels? Most minesweepers are pretty slow, either speed 1 or speed 2 with Slow. Do they take two turns to sweep a sector? YES
| RAEVSKI wrote: | | - Mines affect ships and subs. (I know they are different, but i like things simple) |
What about PT boats? I'd say that units that can't get hit by torpedoes aren't affected by mines. PT Boats are mostly made of wood and most mines use magnetic forces to go off. Rule is not effect on PT Boats.
| RAEVSKI wrote: | | - mines may be map marked by owner of mines. |
This isn't real clear. Are mines hidden or are they placed on the map as soon as they're laid? If they're hidden how do you detect them? Mines are hidden and marked on a map by the owner. Detection can be by running into them or using a minesweeping vessel. (I will write more rules on these and add to my rules)
| RAEVSKI wrote: | - Any vessel moving into or stationary in a mined square has to test
Test:
1d6 - 4+ hit by mine
Damage 1d6 1-3 1 hull point
4-5 2 hull points
6 3 hull points
Torpedo defence affects damage |
I'd keep things simple. No damage roll, 2 points of damage on a hit (adjusted for torpedo defense). |
I have read lots on destroyers (2 hull) hitting mines and not sinking, so i have given them a chance to survive. I have also read accounts of crusiers sinking from mines also hence the rare 3 damage. 
Thanks for the constructive comments
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Blackeagle
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Re: Sea Mines Rules | RAEVSKI wrote: | | I have read lots on destroyers (2 hull) hitting mines and not sinking, so i have given them a chance to survive. I have also read accounts of crusiers sinking from mines also hence the rare 3 damage. |
One could say the same thing about torpedo hits (destroyers surviving a hit and cruisers going down to just one torp) but in WaS, torpedoes always do the same amount of damage. WaS is definitely built on a KISS philosophy and I'd say keep that going in your mine rules.
| RAEVSKI wrote: | | Thanks for the constructive comments |
You're welcome!
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RAEVSKI
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Re: Sea Mines RulesNot being able to shoot while minelaying makes sense, but why can't they be fired on?
I was presumming they will have to take evasive action.
| RAEVSKI wrote: | | -It take two moves to remove mines. |
Is this limited to minesweeping vessels? Most minesweepers are pretty slow, either speed 1 or speed 2 with Slow.
Do they take two turns to sweep a sector?
YES
| RAEVSKI wrote: | | - Mines affect ships and subs. (I know they are different, but i like things simple) |
What about PT boats? I'd say that units that can't get hit by torpedoes aren't affected by mines.
PT Boats are mostly made of wood and most mines use magnetic forces to go off. Rule is not effect on PT Boats.
| RAEVSKI wrote: | | - mines may be map marked by owner of mines. |
This isn't real clear. Are mines hidden or are they placed on the map as soon as they're laid? If they're hidden how do you detect them?
Mines are hidden and marked on a map by the owner. Detection can be by running into them or using a minesweeping vessel. (I will write more rules on these and add to my rules)
| RAEVSKI wrote: | - Any vessel moving into or stationary in a mined square has to test
Test:
1d6 - 4+ hit by mine
Damage 1d6 1-3 1 hull point
4-5 2 hull points
6 3 hull points
Torpedo defence affects damage |
I'd keep things simple. No damage roll, 2 points of damage on a hit (adjusted for torpedo defense).[/quote] I have read lots on destroyers (2 hull) hitting mines and not sinking, so i have given them a chance to survive. I have also read accounts of crusiers sinking from mines also hence the rare 3 damage.
Thanks for the constructive comments [/quote]
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RAEVSKI
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Re: Sea Mines Rules | Blackeagle wrote: |
One could say the same thing about torpedo hits (destroyers surviving a hit and cruisers going down to just one torp) but in WaS, torpedoes always do the same amount of damage. WaS is definitely built on a KISS philosophy and I'd say keep that going in your mine rules. |
I agree with what you are saying but for my scenario that i have almost finished it is important that destroyers have a chance to survive so for ease sake make it 2 damage. But i do suggest for the Constanta scenario
use the damage table.
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Blackeagle
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Re: Sea Mines Rules | RAEVSKI wrote: | | I was presumming they will have to take evasive action. |
Ships can't move evasively enough to avoid being attacked at any other point in this game, why should minelaying be any different?
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RAEVSKI
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Re: Sea Mines Rules | Blackeagle wrote: | | Ships can't move evasively enough to avoid being attacked at any other point in this game, why should minelaying be any different? |
I believe mines are layed in "Barrages" for greater effect. Instead of a combat manouvering which includes zig zagging to confuse the range finders.
Please note I am not arguing for the sake of it, I just want to get it right.
I really apppriate the comments.
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Le Frog
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Slightly off subject, but didn't some sub's have the mine laying ability. I'm not an arch-naval historian, but I thought I read that somewhere(scappa flow or the eastern sea-board perhaps...)
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Blackeagle
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| Le Frog wrote: | | Slightly off subject, but didn't some sub's have the mine laying ability. I'm not an arch-naval historian, but I thought I read that somewhere(scappa flow or the eastern sea-board perhaps...) |
Yep. Most nations developed mines that could be launched from a torpedo tube.
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Blackeagle
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Re: Sea Mines Rules | RAEVSKI wrote: | | I believe mines are layed in "Barrages" for greater effect. Instead of a combat manouvering which includes zig zagging to confuse the range finders. |
If anything ships would probably maneuver less and be easier to hit when laying mines. Remember, you're trying to manhandle an object about the size of a refrigerator, weighing several hundred pounds, and filled with high explosive across the deck.
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RAEVSKI
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| Le Frog wrote: | | Slightly off subject, but didn't some sub's have the mine laying ability. I'm not an arch-naval historian, but I thought I read that somewhere(scappa flow or the eastern sea-board perhaps...) |
Rule,
Subs will lay mines in one square only, no torpedoes it will take 1 turn to lay.
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Vornargith
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I used to place mine icons on my custom cards to indicate a unit's mine compliment, but I've removed them so they wouldn't contradict anyone's custom rules.
Here's my method ...
Basically, I gave a ship one mine counter per every 20 mines it historically carried. During the movement step, a unit can spend a mine counter to lay 1 mine in its sector instead of moving. Only 1 mine counter may be placed at a time, but a maximum of 3 mine counters may be placed in one sector.
Any unit (friend or foe) entering a mined sector must roll successfully (4-6) to avoid mines (one roll for each mine counter). Modifiers are:
1) Damaged ship ... -1
2) Moving speed higher than 1 ... -1
3) Carriers, Auxiliaries, Battleships ... -1
4) Motorboats, Frigates, Destroyers ... +1
5) Ship entering sector is friendly ... +1
6) Ship entering sector is Minesweeper ... +1
An unmodified roll of 6 always eliminates the mine counter. A unit with "Minesweeper" eliminates the mine counter immediately if it avoids the mine successfully.
A ship that fails to avoid a mined sector is immediately subject to a mine attack. Roll 1d6 for each mine counter. Each 6 inflicts 2 damage. Torpedo defense reduces this damage.
If a mine attack hits, remove the counter. If it misses, the counter remains active in the sector, ready for the next ship that enters.
That's my 10 cents.
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jfkziegler
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I like those rules. Simple and elegant.
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RAEVSKI
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bumping for Rengoky to scrutinize 
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RAEVSKI
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Ren i like a lot of your mechanisisms especailly minelayer X
i think that it should not affect your points as the mines should do it.
X could equal 20 mines and a mine card.
Mine card could be eqvillant to a torpedo attack at 2 points per card, so therefore if you wanted to u could use a minelayer as a ship without a mine and not be penalized.
EXample- Admiral Murgescu is 6 points and is minelayer 4 so i could put 4 mine counters on it so it costs 6 +(4x2counter) = 14.
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Rengokuy
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Hrmmmm, I could understand that pricing system for minelayers...
(of course humerously, if you have a large enough build you can afford to fully equip Terror with 900 mines, that's 90 points in mines alone, ke ke ke)
All playtesting I did with minelayers in the match once again on;y really allowed the subs and aircraft to be effective. So we can make the base rules and the reccomend that there be a pre-main fleet battle to set the field up with mines mines and more mines.
I perfer your damage system of each numver on the die having a corresponding damage. It would seem more representative of how oe ship can strike a mine and be fine, and another can strike a mine and blow in half
hmmmmmm what else?
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