Aquarius
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ME 262Can anyone tell me what stats I would use for the Me 262 (have a couple coming in soon)?
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NeuralDream
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The Me262 for WAS????!!! Now that would be strange.
Well, I would give it bombs 9, armour 7/9/1, and SA highly flammable: If an enemy AA attack against the me262 hits three 6s then the me262 is destroyed. Place a face-down destroyed counter. And of course land-based. It would never reach the speed to take off in time from a carrier deck.
Except if you had Me262 for AAM in mind, for which I can go see the stats if you want.
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Jameson
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Would anybody object to me moving this to the aircraft subforum to help get it going?
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NeuralDream
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go ahead, but leave a shadow here in case the original poster is looking for it and can't find it  .
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Andreas3
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| NeuralDream wrote: | The Me262 for WAS????!!! Now that would be strange.
Well, I would give it bombs 9, armour 7/9/1, and SA highly flammable: If an enemy AA attack against the me262 hits three 6s then the me262 is destroyed. Place a face-down destroyed counter. And of course land-based. It would never reach the speed to take off in time from a carrier deck.
Except if you had Me262 for AAM in mind, for which I can go see the stats if you want. |
Why would you give it bombs 9????? The ME262 fighter-bomber version was a complete disaster!!!!!!!! And even if they would have been able to to hit ships (which they werent) how much damage do you think two 250kg bombs would do to a battleship!!!!! If some one would use ME262s in WAS they should be used as fighters and nothing else, well at least if you ask me....
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DarkMercy
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Bombs 9 does seem to be a bit much. Just an AA value, like Andreas said. Some special ability based on its speed and some high armor values would be a good idea. A good ability might be to make it un-targetable by fighters on CAP, since they probably wouldn't be able to intercept a 262. If you want the stats for the AAM, I have them.
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Aquarius
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Yeah, I was thinking something along the lines of a REALLY good fighter. Can anyone think of any WaS stats?
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DarkMercy
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Let's see. How about:
Aircraft - Fighter
AA: 8
Armor: 7
Vital: 9
Hull: 1
Land Based.
High Speed Attacker: Aircraft using the CAP special ability may not target this unit with any attacks.
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NeuralDream
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IMO the Me262 cannot take part in WAS.
It cannot have high AA because despite its enormous speed difference and climbing ability and firepower it would never get into position to kill a wildcat or a hurricane. Me262s were used against high-altitude fighters, such as the Mustang and the Thunderbolt, but mainly for high-alt bombers, such as the B17 and B29. It was also used as a fighter-bomber, but not with great success. In other words, I think, it has no place in WAS. And you are right, I gave it too high bomb load! Very wrong choice, but IMO equally wrong as giving it high AA against the fighters that we have in WAS, or even the dive-bombers for that matter).
If you want a really good fighter for the Axis in WAS then take the Ki-84Ic (AA 10 at least) or a late war Zero, such as the A6M7b (AA 9 or so). For the Allies you can do the P-38J (AA at least 9).
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VonGwinner
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I wonder what the range of those were... would it even be plausable to use in Atlantic battles?
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Sink the Bismark
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I think that Germany had lost France by the time these things were operational.
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Aquarius
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So??????
I can finally shoot down some Dauntlesses!!!!! 
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NeuralDream
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Mod_Aquarius, the 262 is seriously the worst choice to shoot down anything small. What you want is a super-fighter for the Germans. This was the FW190D9 (1944) or the FW190A6 (1943) or the BF109K4C3 (1945).
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seisen
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Ok guys...I have to give my two cents here...this is in no way a flame so if you dispute the info I present here please say so, thats why we have forums afterall  ....BUT....
Oberlfeldwebel Herman Buchner with his unit of 262's flying out of Lechfeld (just out of Koln attacking Amsterdam and the Belgian Ports) and Robert Weiss of III/JG 54, who was killed against overwhelming odds on 29 December 1944 (again in the 262)...Both of these men flew anti-shipping attacks against the allies in their 262's...in fact both their units (and two others) have histories over a six week period in 1944 where they destroyed allied shipping with the 262. Buchner claimed 22 victories over British Martlet II's. Which is a fighter someone questions the 262's ability to fight in this very thread. Buchner was considered a ground attack ace and had 26 total victories against Naval targets in his 262. Eight of his sorties were with the Me-262A-5 which was armed with a long barrel 50mm cannon. Weiss, flying double duty...that is after engaging bombers would engage ground targets on the way back to base...he downed a confirmed 17 F4U Corsairs flying in british colors. If you want histories of units flying the 262 then look at the works of Werner Held by Perntice Hall Publishing, specifically Luftwaffe Fighter Planes and Pilots...ISBN 0-13314-260-4, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 79-84835...I think Ive stated before that I am an archivist so I can get literally ANYTHING published both public and once classified.
Anyway the my point is YES the 262 does have a place in WAS and YES it can and DID shoot down naval aircraft. These are not isolated accounts...if you look closely at the unit histories of the JG and ZS gruppe's operating the 262, you see they flew against the RN, and the USN a lot more often than one would think. Particularly in southern Norway.
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NeuralDream
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Thank you Seisen, I did not know that.
If you suggest stats for the 262 WAS card, I will do the card next week.
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seisen
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| NeuralDream wrote: | Thank you Seisen, I did not know that.
If you suggest stats for the 262 WAS card, I will do the card next week. |
Neural...I hope you didnt think I was being a jerk about this...honestly I go with the flow...If you guys honestly decided that the 262 is horrible for WAS then I wouldnt ever use one in a game. I just happen to have had info about 262 operational squadrons and their pilots...so I pleaded my case for the 262...so sorry if I offended anyone Im not trying to...
Im not really a stats kinda guy...I really dont know how to balance out a Me-262 so that its not Godlike. If I honestly made stats for it, it would be no different than a Zeke or Wildcat...I would only add an SA reflecting speed/evasion/escape. I can provide some info regarding the 262's that flew anti-shipping duty.
Some of the 262's flying out of Lechfield (TestKommando 262) were armed with 4 30mm cannon and carried 2x 499kg or 1100lbs bombs. For concentrated attacks this units 262's had 2 cannons deleated and carried 24 55mm rockets (12 on each wing) and retained the bombs.
The first proper fighter bomber unit using the 262 was 3rd Staffel of Geschwader 51 operating near Chateaudun near Paris in June of 1944. Operating 51 aircraft (never more than 10 committed in a mission) they were equipped with 4x 30mm cannon and carried 2x 249kg or 550lbs bombs. This unit also tried to use an 1100kg or 2200lbs bomb wich was towed behind the 262 with a pair of wings attached to the bomb. This wasnt a success as the bomb tended to porpoise durring flight making the 262 itself unstable. They did manage to bomb some docked LST with it though.
Bomber Geschwader 54 at Lechfeld flew the normal armed 262 but used rockets instead of bombs in the anti-shipping role.
Last is the big unit, Kommando Braunegg and Kommando Nowatany also out of Lechfeld flying (57) 262's of every armament configuration imaginable. The most telling is the A-5's with 2x 30mm cannon, 1x 50mm neumatic cannon mounted in the nose, with 14x 40mm rockets (7 per wing).
These are only the units that we know for fact flew concerted anti-shipping sorties using the 262. So I havent even touched the Fighter, Recon, and Night Fighter units. One important consideration though...these units (save for the three Kommando Gruppe's) were Fighter-Bomber units...that is the pilots WERE NOT trained in the anti-air role. The Luftwaffe operated two schools of air training, Fighter, and Bomber...so these 262's were flown by converted stuka and FW-190A ground attack pilots. They SUFFERED HEAVILY when engaging fighters. No doubt the Wildcats and Corsairs flying for the Fleet Air Arm suffered at the hands of the 262 for the same reason...the F4U's were flown by pilots used to the Fairey Fulmer...and thus stood no chance against experienced pilots like Buchner, Weiss, Johannes Steinhoff, Fuenher Luetzow, Heinz Bear and Gerhard Barkhorn...the leading 262 aces.
Hope this helps somewhat...
Seisen
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NeuralDream
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Thank you very much seisen for this info. I honestly was completely unaware of naval me262 operations and my opinion on it was based solely on its land operations which were of a very different nature. I'll suggest a card based on the actual naval me262 operations and we'll see how it goess. I think this will be a very nice unit. High cost, not extremely effective, but with good SAs. Next week, when I'll return to my "base".
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Diamondback
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I'd say give the Me262 fighter an SA like "High-Altitude Fighter: This aircraft may only use its AA value against Patrol Bombers, and may only be attacked by Patrol Bombers while airborne". It also would need two turns to rearm, and a special rule about being vulnerable to attack on the ground.
Also, something I've been considering for an HHR on the Kondor would help: "Limited Production X: You may only include X copies of this unit in your build". (Kondor would get LP 8 or 12, as there was only one squadron with them and it rarely had even a dozen at a time--attrition was that heavy!)
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Otto von Starkburg
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I suggest: Avoid CAP. It was easy for a Me-262 to avoid attacks of enemy fighters (but so they had to break up there attack).
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Buzzkill
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Whoa! Holy signature pic Batman! I wondered why the thread was wonky. Is it possible for someone to tone that bad boy down a bit?
Seisen, that was some great info on the 262, makes me want to get my hands on a couple for the land game!
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Captain Morevo
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| Buzzkill wrote: | Whoa! Holy signature pic Batman! I wondered why the thread was wonky. Is it possible for someone to tone that bad boy down a bit?
Seisen, that was some great info on the 262, makes me want to get my hands on a couple for the land game! |
That wasn't his sig, that was his AVATAR of all things.
Honestly for a Naval Version of the 262 I would suggest the following
ME262 10 Points
Nazi Germany April 1944-1945
Aircraft-Fighter
AA 9
MG 4
Armor 7/Vital Armor 9/Hull 1
High Altitude Fighter This unit may only make anti-air attacks against Patrol Bombers and Fighters
Interceptor
Land Based
Maintenance Intensive Whenever this unit would rearm roll a die, on a five or a six this unit rearms.
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Otto von Starkburg
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Moin Moin!
If you use the attacker-version of the Me-262, i wouldn't give the Me-262 the Interceptor-Ability. An nevasion-ability (due the hight speed), moderate attack values against other planes and ships seems to be a good idea. The Me-262 was only one of the fastest planes in WW2, not more.
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RedBaron
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is this for WaS or what stats are you people talking about?
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