command and control question

hgraves · command and control question

Seeking a consensus as to if people think a command and control system for WW1 navel is desireable, I have a method in mind that would more or less guaratee some degree of control of squadrons but not absolute, and on a totally botched roll the enemy may move the squadron in question.

the scaleing of game this would work best for is 12-20 plus ships per side (3 or more squadrons) it starts getting tight with lots of luck factor below that. (fair warning)

lotharlutjens

Have the enemy move my ships? Shades of "Word of Command" (I probably shouldn't speak of my old addiction.

Jesse_James

Can you explain this a bit more.

I am kind of lost here. Mad

hgraves

By way of explanation, I apologize for the long posting here.

a Command and Control (henceforth C2) system in a game is designed to show the incomplete Control a fleet admiral/general/ whatever has over far flung and rather independent comands during the course of battle.

two excellent examples of C2 is the command system at the heart of Warmaster (GWs best ruleset in my opinion) also the command system in flagshipgames Taiko (designed especially to show the problems presented to a Japanese commander during the 1450-1610 period.) wherein occasionally unreliable commanders take there units and switch sides.

During the WW1 period the primary means of ship to ship communications consisted of wireless, (which anybody could hear) semaphores, (Flags handled by coms officers, or run up the ships mast near the communications bridge. Oddly more secure due to the fact that the enemy would be quite distant) and at night Morse code over spotlights (also reasonably secure due to the directed nature of those lights.)

As per Ospreys book on Jutland the English had a particularly massive and complicated semaphore system the manual of which was the size of a telephone book. and this lead to several instances during that battle of units missing orders or misinterpreting those orders badly.
the German fleet was not with out its share of miss-communication as well.

so the basic proposal is that a fleet should be broken down to squadrons of 2-4 some odd ships and each squadron is considered to have a flagship

the player (whose role is after all the one of fleet admiral) will then as part of the initiative sequence roll for the success or failure of command of each squadron. (aside from the admirals squadron that section of ships is under absolute control) that roll may be a D6 plus flag of the admiral being greater than say 5+ or 6+

Should a unit fail to recive orders it will simply steam forward and fire upon the nearest enemy if possible.

If a unit recives orders it may change faceing change formation (thou some faceing changes are formation changes) or fire upon a enemy of your chooseing. there may be other benifits such as special rules applying to incommand ships or indeed out of command ships.

should a squadron loose its flagship (a secret which one is which) then the odds of it reciveing a order drops slightly as a inexperianced captain takes charge.

the meat and potatos of the mechanics are still formulateing in my noggon. Razz

anyway a overview of one of the systems that could handle this variable.

swarbs

I do think it is needed, there were certainly a few actions where this was quite important, perhaps it could be handled through the commanders themselves or something, Beatty for example was particularly incompetent when it came to getting his squadron to do what he wanted it to do, and particularly competent at foisting the blame on someone else.

lotharlutjens

I agree that communications was an issue during the Great War, Flag's and signal lamps were still the primary way of signalling during the heat of battle. In a game with multiplayer's this can be simulated easily by the fact that you have multiple players, each with his own idea of what to do in the given situation, but in a smaller game with solo player's, I am loathe to suggest taking away cintrol of one's unit's. I can already here the commotion at White Hall. If you can suggest a way to simulate command control in an elegant fashion, I'm all for it. It would be nice that squadron or divisional flagships counted for something. How to do it escapes me at the moment.

Lutjens out

EvilKobra

Though I'm not very knowledgeable in WWI history, I think there's a good solution to this issue from a gameplay perspective - using C&C to determine initiative. Thus the players would always retain control over their ships, but the effectiveness of communications would determine the moving order of each player's squadrons. This would also solve the annoying über-importance of initiative rolls in WAS.

I've got a fairly complete and streamlined system almost worked out, but before I post it I want to dry-run it a bit more (and I'm in a bit of a hurry right now as I want to finish something at work).

hgraves · Command and Control rules proposal Ver. 1.2

the below may need to be edited.

My command and control rules Ver 1.2

During fleet selection ships would be choosen in squadrons of 2-4 some odd ships and each squadron may have a flagship. The squadron with the highest flag value is the divisonal commander. (I propose flag values of 1-3 for this game) if two squadrons have the same flag value then choose one. (note it is possible to build a fleet with your best ships in the flag squadron however that will weaken any other squadrons in your fleet.)

a squadron of ships must always be adjacent to or in the same square of each other.

The player will then as part of the Initiative sequence roll for the success or failure of command of each squadron in turn. (Aside from the admirals squadron that section of ships is under absolute control) roll 1D6 and add the flag of the divison flagship if the total is 5+ then the squadron in question is "incommand" place a incommand counter with the squadron flag. if the roll is failed no counter is placed. If the roll is a natural 1 place a "out of command" counter with the squadron's flagship.

Should a unit fail to recive orders it will simply steam forward and fire upon the nearest enemy if possible.

Optional rule.
if a unit is "out of command" the opposing player may move that squadron this turn. Thou it may still fire as normal that turn. (it will not fire upon friendly vessels however) this allows a out of command unit to move in exactly the wrong way. which my experiance shows is how things go in a firefight. *"The enemys over-there! dumphead, not where the rounds are landing!"

A unit that is "InCommand" may change faceing during its move, And fire upon a enemy of your chooseing.(regardless of proximity) there may be other benifits such as special rules applying to incommand ships or indeed out of command ships. Example; SA This Vessel if In Command and undamaged gains extended range 4) or SA This Vessel if out of Command may not make main gunnery attacks this turn.

Should a squadron loose (or have crippled) its flagship then the next highest flagship in the squadron becomes the new flag as a new Captain takes charge. If the Divisonal flagship is destroyed or crippled the next higest flag ship in the fleet becomes the new divison commander.

Wordy I know, but it is a elegant system it involves 1 dice roll per squadron and placeing some counters. no more complex than the line of site and smoke rules

now i am going to go duck behind this nice, shell proof, cover whilst you guys lob 105s at my rules idea Razz

Jesse_James

Hgraves, though it is an interesting concept, I think it is a bit much for a game that we want to keep simple.

We do not to give this game a different tast, but I think the movement and facing does that quite well.

hgraves

in as much as we do want to keep this simple I feel the above rules do not add much in complexity at all

roll one dice per squadron, add the highest flag in the squadron, note success or failure place a counter. move ships according to thier command status.

not complicated, not time consumeing, not full of exceptions, or special cases. the notation of command status also makes possible command dependant SAs. adding more flavor to the game. such as SA; Battle Turn Away once per game if in command a unit may after fireing with forward armament make a 180 degree turn and fire with aft armament as well.
the command rule would then add a addtional requirement on a powerfull SA.

I feel the command and control rules deserve to be playtested as to see if they add or detract from the game before they are thrown out Entirely.

my opinion, and one I will happily pontificate untill a majority of active developers and historians on this project come to consensus on this matter. Very Happy

Jesse_James

Not kicking it out at all.

But you are a wings of War player.

They have basic rules and then you can make it more advance with additional rules.

I just think this is one.

Or it can be done the other way. Add it and make it as simple as you want.

But should be noted as rule that is optional and not needed like facing, or INT

The_lucky_Y

hmm here an example how the commandos are transferred in a battle line:

the battle line will make an about face maneuver "gefechtskehrtwende"

1st Flagship sets signal for the maneuver "gefechtskehrtwende"
in the direction to the first ship sailing in the battle line

2nd The ship in front of the Flagship sets the signal "gefechtskehrtwende"
a the other ship knows now that the signal is recognized
b next precedingg ship sees the signal

3rd if the fist ship is reached then the signal "gefechtskehrtwende ausführen" is set on the first ship

4th fship that follows the first ship sets similar signal for two reasons:

a the leading knows now that the signal is recognized
b next following ship sees the signal

5th next following ship sees signal and sets its own same signal

6th if the last vessel sets its own signal then it executes the maneuver that the signal ordered ( make an 180° turn)

7th the vessel in front of the executing vessel executes the maneuver on its own

8th all other vessels in the line executes the maneuver

9th leading ship executes last.

so you must have experienced signal officers on each ship, the flagship serves as the signal brain but can be supported by the other ships in the line. to shorten the communication lines in both directions the flagship often sails in the middle of its battle line.

not very correct in details but I don´t find the source yet whre I read that in original.

hgraves

we use the same techniqe when changeing lanes in a convoy situation
lead truck signals lane change all following trucks see the signal ahead of them and signal simularly when the last truck recives the signal he makes lane change as early as is possible and this (in our case) clears the lane for each truck ahead to make the same move.

Richter von Manthofen

Absolutely necessary in a game set in a period that still largely relied in "formation" battles.

IIRC the "grand Fleet" managed 2 times to finnish the T on the Hochseeflotte, but due to perfact signalling both times the Hochseeflotte escaped from this situation. thus Jutland turned out to be a tactical sucess to Germany instaed ao a disaster...

Jesse_James · Re: Command and Control rules proposal Ver. 1.2

Jesse_James

Other things that came up today:

This was a play test so here it goes

16 ships

4 squads 4 ships each

1st squadren (the admiral squad) with 3 FLGBNS always in command
3 ships under him no flag ships

2nd SQD 2 flag ship
3 ships under him no flag ship

the other 2 did not have a flag ship.

So if my only 2 ships with flagship are destroyed or crippled Do I just choose what ship will lead the squadren

and

which ship will take over the entire fleet as admiral

Or

does a squadren with no ship without a flagbonus is always considared out of control?

That may be a good optional rule. And NOT a needed rule for those small games.

Jesse_James

This is inaddition to my above post that may clear things up.

Is their a Max of ships that can be in a squad?

example I had a total of 16 ships

only 2 had flag bonus

could I put 8 in each one? making it 2 squads

There are advantages and disadvantages to making clusters like that, which could result in some interesting tactics.

Lets say you are playing a simple basic game, only 2 ships

both have flag, can they be seperate?

Subs would not be effected by this would they? As well as torpedo boats (via an SA) so they can just go off and try to damage ships.

And what happens if I get a 4. It is not in command but I did not roll a 1.

So is it out of command? what happens to it if not?

lotharlutjens

I am trying not to be drawn into this discussion, I do not feel it is the time to put a lot of energy and thought into command and control rules for larger type games. But, when that time comes, "The Virginia Military Institute will be heard from today". I do have a LOT to say, as hgraves well knows, on this subject. This subject will be a contraversial one and probably be an optional rule. You do optional rules at the end of a project, not when it's still in it's design stage. Nothing wrong with discussing possabilities but there is more work that needs to be done before we get close to that stage.

Jesse_James

hgraves

hum firstlys i think if this outline is included as a optinal rule that would be shiny. secondlys mayhaps we do need a basic ruleset and advanced rules for a increased flavor of the period. Smile

hum... reforming a squadron at sea as i recall would have been pretty rare.
"on the fly" formation changes with minimal use of wireless and flags for signaling would be very easy to mess up.
if allowed it would require a passed command. at the least

i feel like a proximity reqirement should be stipulated. however it would in theory be possible to order "HMS Canada to proceed to Batron 3 and join" at which point HMS Canada would do just that only fireing at the nearest applicable targets untill joining her new command

hgraves · Re: Command and Control rules proposal Ver. 1.2

Jesse_James

I did not know there was NOT a speed penalty when a ship was crippled.

Was it ruled out or we just have not got to that point yet?

hgraves

errm.... um 'flipping thru the book' ummm. k' um brain fart forgot thats a basic rule. Embarassed

been a long day...

um yes cripples lose one speed and therefore may either slow down the battle line or... be left behind. Smile

ok can we forget i said that ? Very Happy

its late and im tired....

Jesse_James

drink some coffee. Surprised

Richter von Manthofen

Just a thought for ships "without" flag:

If you lose your flagship or your squadsron dosn't have a ship ith flag from the start : there IS a ship that "commands" the sqadron nonetheless. You can assume that one ship has a flag of "zero"...

hgraves

richter that is exactly correct. any ship can be declared "flag" status even while building squadrons hoever ships with out a flag stat would be considered flag zero and give no bonus to rolls.

coffee? i prefer tea. however I am gonna keep the basic rules close by for further consultation before i assume anything. Smile

Jesse_James

So what happens if I were to get a 4 on the roll (I roll 2 +2 from FLG BNS)? it is not a 1 so he is not out of control but it is not 5 or higher

Confused

command and control question

Command and Control rules proposal Ver. 1.2

Re: Command and Control rules proposal Ver. 1.2

Re: Command and Control rules proposal Ver. 1.2