| Archive for Axis & Allies ForuMINI Specialised in the World War II Axis & Allies Miniatures and War At Sea Games |
| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
My Ass Whoopin' Fleet. (Vs. ALL)Caveats:1) Normal Map Size. 2) Objectives. 3) 200 Pts. The Fleet: Kondors x 7 U510 x 6 Bf109 x 4 Graf Zepplin x 2 Zara x 1 Hipper x 1 200 Pts. on the Nose. American Air Builds..... Crushed. BB Builds..... Crushed. Swarm Builds...... Crushed. Tank Builds, UN Builds, Sub Builds.... Crushed, Crushed, Crushed. 
So no more cryin' from the galleries that nothing can compete with American Air, or whatever the next "Build of the Month" is, because this is it. Possible Switch is the Zara and Hipper out for One more Zepplin, another Bf109, and a Nordmark. |
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| jfkziegler |
It certainly looks interesting. I'll try to give it a playtest against an American air build when I get a chance to. | ||||
| ElectricCatND |
That is a very interesting build. I would be curious to see how that plays. | ||||
| USS Yorktown (CV-5) |
It says "American air builds...crushed", but I think it would actually struggle against US air. The surface ships listed are not too sturdy if the US bombers beat the screen. The subs do apply pressure though. | ||||
| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Give me an air build that this would struggle with and I'll explain how to play to beat it. Or we could set up a best of 5 series of matches on the forum to play it out.
In fact, if ANYONE wants to post a fleet to compete with this, (and that would still be competitive against other fleets) I'm throwing down the gauntlet right now. It just got real. 
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| Jaybird |
Looks good but I think there might be one issue. Haven't you exceeded the amount of aircraft allowed on an airbase? I can't remember the allowable as I usually do not limit them. If not it sounds like an interesting line up. | ||||
| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
7 is max. The 4 109's are off of the carriers. | ||||
| Inspiring Lieutenant |
I don't normally play 200 point games, but I can tell that is an excellent fleet. It mirrors my favorite 100 point fleet very closely. 
My 100 point version struggles the most against DD swarms (Just can't fit in as many aircraft at 100). So, if set III units are permissable, I would bring this: USS Kidd x 25 (200) I believe that this build remains relatively competitive against other fleets in general too. Armor 3 and "Desperate AA" make the USS Kidd more survivable against air attacks and relatively imperivous to strafing fighters, which are the bane of most DD swarms. Of course, the Kondors are going to do some damage with their ASMs, the fighters will strafe the crippled Kidds, and then the Kondors will return on turn 3 for high risk regular attacks against "Desperate AA" (Minus one Kondor held back for pinpointer). The subs will also probably take a few out, but they can't contest objectives, so by that time, some of the surface ships will have to move within the Kidds' torpedo range, and I figure, off the top of my head, that there will be around 17-18 Kidds remaining. Of course, each of your surface ships is also well suited for dealing with destroyers. It could be a good game. |
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| Inspiring Lieutenant |
Doh! Forgot about "Normal map size." Twentyfive Kidds wouldn't fit! | ||||
| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
That would be an excellent fleet to parry mine but, alas, the set-up zone is only 7 squares wide at max. (Less if you roll for map #6) Allowing you to only set up 14 of those Kidds. The Kidd is a fine ship though. | ||||
| wilt57 |
See why I hate the Germans... 
wilt57 |
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| Commissar_JPH |
But according to some people on these boards (I won't name names, but they're the ones who constantly b**** and moan and have a bug up their arse about how unfair American fleets are, they know who they are), an American air build will simply wipe the floor with this and you're a dirty liar if you say otherwise who is simply blindly pro-American. | ||||
| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Damn. I'll have to flail myself again for stepping out of line.
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| USS Yorktown (CV-5) |
Enterprise 25
Laffey 9 Dauntless 13 Avenger 14 Hellcat 10 (71pts) Saratoga 26 Laffey 9 Dauntless 13 Avenger 14 Hellcat 10 (72pts) Illustrious 20 Laffey 9 Avenger 14 Wildcat 7 Catalina 7 (57pts) Total 200 pts |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
We will be playtesting this tonight. I expect you to be doing the same. 
AAR's will be appreciated. KoD |
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| olliande |
Here is the typical fleet i test against your fleet:
Entreprise 25 Dauntless 13*3 39 64 Saratoga 26 TBF Avenger 14*3 42 68 Wildcat 7 Hellcat 10*4 40 Catalina 7 TBF Avenger 14 This fleet waa made for a "secession war" tournament and i didn't finnish first. Sorry but it was a U.S. victory. |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Game 1.
American Air. Crushed! Map 1 Rolled. Highlights: Turn 1. 4 Kondors got through to kill the Illustrious. 1 Kondor Dead. 1 Dauntless through for the Americans. No Damage. Turn 2. Dauntless gets through to vital the Hipper. Everything else turned away. Saratoga hit once by a Zepplin. Saratoga hits Zepplin for 1 Damage in return. Laffey Cripples a sub. Sub kills a Laffey. Sub hits Enterprise with one torpedo for 2 points of damage. Turn 3. Enterprise dies to 2 kondors. 3rd Kondor cripples Laffey. 2 Dead Kondors. 1 Aborted. 1 Avenger through, Hits Zara with 1 Torpedo. 1 Dauntless is killed. Over the Zepplins, the other aborted, presses, rolls a 1! (CRUSHED!) 
Zara Finished off the Laffey in the middle. (claims objective at eot) Laffey Misses in return. Saratoga hits the hurt Zepplin with mains and secondaries, crippling it, Laffey misses with everything. Zepplins hit the Saratoga once. Secondaries kill Laffey. Subs kill Saratoga. Zepplins collect the objective marker beneath them. Game Over. Crushed!
(pics to be loaded later) |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Game 2 was even more of a stomping as a friend of mine took over and tweaked my deck more towards his particular tactical preferences. The Hipper and Zara were removed, a Galster was added along with an Ambra, and another U510.
We decided not to play against the "Succession" fleet that was posted as it was inferior to the 3 carrier task force build. Any other competition out there or are you all chicken?
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| IJN Fuso |
I'm curious - How do you deploy your Kondors on Turn 1? I'd be tempted to use all at once to missle everything in sight - leaving none in reserve to spot for the wolfpack in turn 2.
Also - do you deploy the GZs together or with a cruiser? I'd have a tendancy to put the GZs in 1 group and the cruisers in another - but I'd like to get your perspective. |
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| Captain Morevo |
Well, my only gripe is that its a 2GZ build.
I'll face it, on one condition, you drop the objectives and face me Battle Royale. |
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| USS Yorktown (CV-5) |
I´ll have to try out that first matchup when I get the chance, seemed like the Allies were getting extremely little returns on their aircraft in those couple of games.
When I look at the German fleet again I start to think it´s probably most vulnerable to some sort of simple old battleships and subs cheese. Just off the top of my head: 2x Iowa 136 pts 4x Truculent 48 pts Archerfish 15 pts Total 199 pts |
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| Inspiring Lieutenant |
Or maybe a British build along those lines: HMS Rodney x 2 (116) HMS Truculent x 7 (84) The armor 9 Battleships render the German air ineffective, and with an initiative bonus plus superior numbers, the Truculents should have a slight advantage over the U-Boats; and it's an all British fleet.
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
The problem with the "lots of subs and a couple big sticks" builds is that I'll harass the shit out of your subs with my kondors and then roll 4 dice vs. your one with submerged shot.
Once your subs are out of the way then I give you a complete drubbing with my own subs in return, with maybe one or two lucky bomb hits with the kondors. Those are actually the worst fleets you can bring against my build. |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Fuso,
1. "How do you deploy your Kondors on Turn 1?" - Depending on what I'm facing, I will generally use them all on turn one. Sometimes, against heavy japanese fighter builds I will keep them all in reserve until turn 2. (No surprise, and my subs are usually in range for pinpointing at that time as well) The thing I love about the Kondor is that it's a cheap and flexabile unit. 2. "Do you deploy the GZs together or with a cruiser?" - I put the Zepp's in with eachother and the Cruisers together. Everything moves forward towards the objectives... though the Carriers somewhat more tepidly if there's some big guns in range. But I like them up front just to threaten just in case. Good questions. |
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| Inspiring Lieutenant |
I didn't realize that ASW planes effected subs that way, but I reviewed the rules and you're right. I guess that 2 ASW on a plane is good for something afterall. Therefore, I'm going back to a DD swarm for the best counter. Counsidering the 7 square deployment space limitation (Something that is seldom a factor at the 100 point level I normally play), I'd go with the following: Richelieu (54) USS Kidd x 13 (104) HMAS Arunta x 6 (42) This is more vulnerable to air attack than I'd like, but I think this is the best anti-sub DD swarm I can do until an armor 3 destroyer with close escort comes out. |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
That's an interesting build.
I need to get through 19 destroyers before they are either able to kill, or threaten my subs down to one shot before your Reichleu pummels my fleet into submission. Depending on how fast my air, and ship gunnery can maul/kill your destroyers might make for a really interesting game. I'll try that one out tonight. |
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| jfkziegler |
So I tried your fleet against my standard American test fleet (Massachusetts, Cleveland, Enterprise, Yorktown, Hellcat, Wildcat, Dauntless x2, Avenger x2, Catalina). Your fleet did very well. The Kondors knocked out both carriers on the first turn, and from that point on it was pretty much a foregone conclusion, as the Avengers couldn't hit often enough to stop the subs. Your fleet claimed two objectives and sunk the American surface fleet to claim victory.
Maybe we should all be complaining about how overpowered the Germans are.
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
What would you bring? And even though my build is done strictly within the rules of the game, I could be coerced into playing a non-objective game. Just to see you eat some crow.
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Damn. The secrets out.
But seriously. I think the game is a lot more balanced than what a lot of people give it credit for. I would still like to see the Brits and French fleets evolve a bit more. Set 3 gives the Brits some extra punch though takes away from the French, which is unfortunate. We'll just ahve to see whats in store for them with set 4. |
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| USS Yorktown (CV-5) |
Initiative is a big factor in WaS sub warfare. The Axis need to beat the initiative roll by 3 to gain the initiative here. So, the Trucs can most likely decide when to engage in sub shootouts. Initiative is also a big factor for the Iowas avoiding torps against them and for the Archerfish to chase the GZs. Another thing is that even though the Kondors are numerous, they have to re-arm for a turn after use. So, they will not be pinpointing the turn after sub harassment or doing harassment for two turns in a row. It might even be worth it to trade Trucs 2 for 1 in rigged sub duels to buy the Iowas more time. Also, the Iowas combine for 12 hull points with TD. That means that they take 72 torp dice on average to sink. If they get their hands on the Axis ships it gets ugly real fast. I will strive to find the time to test this over the weekend, maybe I´m wrong but I don´t see how this matchup can be a walkover one way or another. |
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| jfkziegler |
So, I playtested Inspiring Lietenant's fleet against KoD's fleet, and it was quite a game.
The Allied fleet took heavy losses from the Round 1 Kondors and strafing Bf-109's, but still had enough left to take two of the objectives on Turn 3, eliminating Zara and Hipper along the way. Thus, it became a race to the last objective, with the Allied fleet trying to get there, and the German subs and planes trying to stop them. The subs stopped Richelieu, and the planes killed all the rest of the destroyers. This led to a very interesting conclusion. Thanks to shooting down two Kondors and a Bf-109, and sinking Zara and Hipper, plus claiming two objectives, the Allied fleet had 247 points. By sinking the entire opposing surface fleet, and thus scoring the 200 points for the fleet plus the 100 point bonus for sinking the fleet, the Germans had 300 points exactly. As such, KoD's fleet won without ever taking an objective. |
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| Commissar_JPH |
I might replace some of the Kidds with Javelins....just for the smoke bonus in case you lose initiative....could help keep your DD's alive to kill the subs. |
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| IJN Fuso |
What are the kidd stats?! | ||||
| jfkziegler |
Kidd's stats are here:
http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/about7986.html |
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| Inspiring Lieutenant |
I think that USS Hoel would be a better option for smoke in this build, since it has armor 3 and better AA (More difficult for fighters to take out); though Javelin does have "Sub-hunter." Maybe drop one Arunta and upgrade 7 Kidds to Hoels / Javelins. So maybe: Richelieu (54) USS Hoel x 7 (63) USS Kidd x 6 (48) HMAS Arunta x 5 (35) Or maybe just try two out of three with the last version, since it was close. Thanks for playtesting it; I don't have access to mini's right now. |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
The only problem is that the smoke really isn't saving you as much as it is hurting you. Air is placed and fires prior to the release of smoke. Also, unless you use Javelins as well, your smoking units will fall behind your screen of sub-hunting Aruntas -- weakening your AA umbrella.
On the flip side if you went with a Javelin/Arunta destroyer build you would be trading off the Armor 3 DD which is handy as well. |
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| Commissar_JPH |
Yeah, that's why I thought about the Javelins instead of Hoels....Sub-Hunter would be a great boon to this build....but so is Armor 3. Maybe do the following: Richelieu x1 (54) USS Hoel x3 (27) HMS Javelin x4 (36) USS Kidd x6 (48) HMAS Arunta x5 (35) |
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| Commissar_JPH |
the smoke would be more for hiding them from the guns of the GZs and cruisers when you get to the point where you're closing in on the objectives.
Getting those DDs to survive (and potentially unscathed) once they get within range 3 of the cruisers and GZs could prove to be a life-saver. |
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| Campbjj |
Richelieu x 1- 54 pts
Sackville x 29- 145 pts |
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| jfkziegler |
Smoke would also help protect you from torpedoes, which is very important against that many subs. | ||||
| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Too many ships for the board. Read the first page. 
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| wilt57 |
The GZs really make this build. The Germans had high AA and escort DDs to compensate for their lack of fighter cover. Then set 2 came with a gun carrier and fighters, except the surface units retained their high AA. The fact that they can have a face-off with cruisers over the objectives and come out on top is icing on the cake.
Stuka Operations is one of the silliest SAs I have ever seen, probably because I have never seen it used! 
72 torp dice isn't that tough to imagine. With 8 subs that would be 9 dice per sub per game. That would be 3 a turn for 3 turns, and most of the time those subs will be rolling 4 or 5 at a time, meaning only two turns. I think those subs could keep Iowas within range for 3 turns. Of course, this depends upon none of the subs being threatened or sunk, but proves it isn't that far of a stretch. wilt57 |
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| USS Yorktown (CV-5) |
I thought there were 6 subs in the build? If the Iowas stick together and use the should-have initiative wisely they should have a good chance of breaking through the German sub screen without both ships sinking. Don´t forget there are 5 subs in the Iowa build and those boats will be applying pressure on the German surface fleet themselves. |
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| olliande |
I make 2 try against this build:
1 short victory: Tour 1 2 dauntless make 2 hit againt a GZ 3Hit againt Entreprise 3 kondor and 1 Dauntless vitalized Tour 2 1 U510 destroyed Tour 3 GZ take a Hit Hipper 2 torpedo Zara 1 torpedo 1 Hit against a U510 Dauntless vitalized German take a ojectif Tour 4 BF 109 vitalized GZ destroyed 2nd GZ take a torpedo The crippled U510 is destroyed ENtreprise take a torpedo (sink) German take a objectif Tour 5 The GZ take a torpedo (sink) Tour 6 Saratoga take a torpedo U510 destroyed Tour 7 2*U510 take a Hit US take a objectif Tour 8 2*U510 destroyed Zara destroyed US Victory Revenge Tour 3 GZ Vitalized and second GZ take a torpedo. we didn't finnish the game: US Victory I don't understand the presence of the Zara and the Hipper in your fleet: for me it's wasted point |
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| USS Yorktown (CV-5) |
I hardly ever make a German fleet without Tirpitz in it, it´s just too much of a bargain to pass up. I wonder if it could be accommodated in this kind of build without sacrificing too much bite. Tirpitz 55 Graf Z 18 4x BF-109 28 5x Kondor 30 3x U-510 33 3x U-66 36 Total 200 |
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| jfkziegler |
I think dropping two Kondors and a GZ is losing too much, even for Tirpitz.
Plus, that forces you to keep Tirpitz and GZ together to defend against air attack, and usually you won't want GZ going where Tirpitz goes. |
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| olliande |
You would have only 1 fighter with AA8 2 Fighter with AA7 1 Ship with AA9 and one ship with AA 9. I think it's better but not against dauntless with press the attack. You will take hits almost every turn.
Against a non aerial fleet it could be better. |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
The purpose of the extra fighters is to help with placement of the 7 Kondors. Having to place Kondors with too much fighter cover of your opponants left spells doom for this fleet. The Tirpitz has no place in this build at all.
Even if you put it in it would get the shit kicked out of it by Rodneys, Iowas, usashi's, etc. |
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| Bartacus |
The Kondor has always been one of my favourite German units and this build shows how devastatingly effective it can be.
The Kondor was always a decent plane but since the BF-109 came along in Set 2 to provide escort it has become an absolute star. Compare how effective a Kondor is versus a Halifax for the UK, both at 6 points. |
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| Duck Crusader |
The Halifax's star comes out in a subhunter fleet, and it's one hell of a lot harder to abort/shoot down. | ||||
| Bartacus |
Agreed, but as an SA I think Pinpointer is superior to ASW Pinpointer, as it is far more flexible.
The Halifax is certainly more resilient but it's not nearly as versatile as a Kondor. Either you sit it on a sub, where it has a low chance of hitting itself but can boost DD attacks, or you can put it on a destroyer or cruiser and pray for the 6's. A Kondor has a virtual guarantee of damaging any DD or Cruiser turn 1 with it's stand-off attack if not aborted, and on following turns can repeat the trick and pinpoint for subs on a different target too. Finally the Kondor supports your own build so it should always be useful. The Halifax combats your opponents build, so if you guess incorrectly that he is going to load up on subs then it will be 6 pts down the drain. I just think for the potential damage it can inflict the Kondor is great value. |
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| USS Yorktown (CV-5) |
Missouri
Baltimore 12x Laffey |
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| Aquarius |
I was waiting for someone to suggest the Laffeys.
Range-1 AA should neutralize a bunch of the anti-ship missiles. Uniquely tough means the Kondors can't kill them, even if they do hit. This fleet would be interesting. |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
I'll have 7 Kondors and 4 109's out turn 1. Between strafing and bombs I should be able to kill 2 or 3 laffeys on that turn and have another crippled. Turn two I'll kill off any cripples and possibly cripple 1 or 2 more.
The odds that you'll have (or be able to) Vital any of my planes is VERY slim. I'll also have guns trained on your laffeys from 4 of my ships during turn two, on top of possibly a couple torp hits. At the end of turn two Enough laffeys should be thinned out that they become a non-issue. Played correctly I would surmise that it would be End of Game by the finish of turn 4 with me down a Zara, Hipper, and probably 3 or 4 dead Kondors tops with a fleet wipe on your end. You may also have taken an objective as well, which in the end, wouldn't really matter. While I can't say that I would beat this fleet 100% of the time I still think odds would have it that I would win a super-majority of the time. Same against many of thost American Air heavy builds. The purpose of posting this fleet originally was to combat many fo the complaints that "ZORMG! Amerikanz = Superz unbeatabl3 DOOM FLEET!" I think that this fleet has proven that there are exceptions to this theory. People just need to increase their mental agility in creatign fleets that are away from the norm and whatever particular flavor of the month. I know that the group that I play with build whatever killer fleet people are trumpeting and then design foils for it. Set 3 is going to be great, more units, more possible combos. I know a lot fo peopl ehave their favorite fleets and what-not, but really... explore some new options. If your favorite fleet loses 5 times in a row to the same fleet don't expect that it will win on the 6th chance. Don't just sit their and bitch that the other fleet is too powerful, blah, blah, fricking blah. I've heard it all the time on this forum. I don have to say that I'm glad some people were posting some fleets in this thread though, but, they were all fairly similarly themed. Big BB with DD swarm... or American Air Heavy. My next challenge is to have any of you develop a killer fleet utilizing some other theme or doctrine that would beat this fleet or be competitive against a whole host of different fleets. I'd like to say that this Kondor fleet would be the benchmark to beat. Any takers? |
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| jfkziegler |
And thus the War at Sea metagame was born. | ||||
| USS Yorktown (CV-5) |
There is no chance in hell that the Kondor fleet will beat the Laffey-Missouri fleet on a regular basis. | ||||
| babs |
What about Alaska's?
They seem like the excellent ship against this build. They're to toughly armored to get killed by Kondor's or any surface department. It'll need some Laffey's tough to wade through the sub swarm... Babs out! |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
I'm really anxious to see the Alaska in action. I can think of quite a few different types of fleets that would benefit by including 1 of those (or 2) instead of a battleship. | ||||
| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
I smell a challenge. Want to set up an online match... or three? |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
In fact, I'm so sure of my fleet that I'll gladly put a wager, say, if you win (best of 3 games) I'll buy you a booster box (not a case, one box)
And you'll have the satisfaction of seeing me eat some crow....
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| USS Yorktown (CV-5) |
I take the challenge. No need to put up the wager though, seeing you eat the crow is quite enough.
I have no experience of online play, so I will have to look through the tutoring thread to get the hang of it. |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Ok. Just tell me when you're ready. | ||||
| IJN Fuso |
Ok KoD
I'm ready to accept your challenge. Although I'm not ready to bet on Mizzou / Laffeys. Here's my fleet: Tennessee Saratoga 2X Laffey Archerfish 3X Avenger 3X Wildcat Hellcat 2X B25 Halifax or PBY or Wildcat (Haven't decided which yet) This fleet won't win 100% of the time - but should at least be competitive. I'll be traveling for work, but could start tonight. I'll be slow in responding for the next few days, but I'll be on from time to time. Can you do maps? |
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| Jesse_James |
Nice build.
The only thing is you are asking people to build against a fleet they already know of what it consists of does not really happen normally. |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Fuso,
I will be ready to play whenever you're ready as well. Thanks, KoD |
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| IJN Fuso |
Let's get ready to RRRRRRRUUUUUUUUMMMMMMBBBBBBLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEE
http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/sutra173026.php#173026 |
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| jfkziegler |
So, I decided to playtest KoD's fleet against CV5's fleet. I was pretty confident that CV5's fleet was going to win, given how strong the Laffey is against Kondors.
I was wrong. CV5's fleet did manage to take two objectives, but KoD's fleet won through attrition. The Kondors were very successful in crippling the Laffeys, and that made it hard for the Laffeys to get across the board. On their way across the board, they were strafed to death by the BF-109's or sunk by the Zara and Hipper. A few made it, but the subs took care of those. With the Kondors spotting and no Laffeys for protection, the Missouri was facting oddles of torpedoes every turn, and it went down hard, with Baltimore right behind it. In the end, KoD's fleet sunk CV5's entire fleet. In my tests so far, KoD's fleet is clearly the one to beat. |
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| IJN Fuso |
No doubt - this fleet might be the best fleet I've seen ever @ 200 points for objective games. To beat it you need effective airborn sub control and bit of luck! The Kondors' Missle make ship selection limited, because turn 1 you'll be facing missles galore. Then the wolfpack wipes out the stragglers. The fleet I've posted might be 50% against it. I haven't come close to 50% with anything else. | ||||
| jfkziegler |
The more I look at it, the more I think the best shot against it is a destroyer/fighter swarm. Of course, the only major problem with that is that a fighter swarm will usually require at least one carrier for support so the land base doesn't get overloaded. No doubt about it, it's a good build. As I said, it's the beginning of the War at Sea metagame. | ||||
| Tincancaptain |
KOD I hate to burst your bubble but the land air base max is 5, unless house ruled otherwise. If however, that is the case try facing a US fleet consisting of 10 Laffeys 8 Hellcats a Dauntless and a Princeton. |
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| jfkziegler |
The land airbase limit is 5 at 100 points, 7 at 200 points. | ||||
| Tincancaptain |
 I didn't think the land base increased until 500Pts.
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| jfkziegler |
From the Major Engagement Scenario section of the rulebook:
Special Rules: The capacity of your land airbase increases to 7, 9, or 13 Aircraft units for a 200, 300, or 500-point game. |
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| wilt57 |
It's good to know I'm not the only one having trouble with the Germans!
wilt57 |
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| Duck Crusader |
And we use 26 at a thousand. | ||||
| The_lucky_Y |
and even the stacking limit may be relaxed to 3 units in a 5oo pointer page 35 of the rule book |
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| Inspiring Lieutenant |
The Alaska is cheap enough to fit in, and Fighter Director could be very useful against adjacent Kondors. However, the Alaska lacks Torpedo Defense, and the Kondor's ASM still has a 40% chance of hitting Armor 7; but I think the Alaska has potential if it's support is chosen wisely. It gives me this idea: USS Alaska (28) USS Saratoga (26) USS Enterprise (25) HMAS Arunta (7) F4F Wildcats x 6 (42) HMS Truculents x 6 (72) (200) The Enterprise stays one square behind Alaska, Saratoga, and Arunta; and the whole fleet has fighter protection thanks to Combat Air Patrol. The Truculents create a hole in the Wolfpack, and the Surface Fleet uses it's initiative bonus to stay one step ahead. Or lose the initiative bonus for more surface firepower by using another Saratoga: USS Alaska (28) USS Saratoga x 2 (52) HMCS Haida (7) F4F Wildcats x 5 (35) Marlet (6) HMS Truculents x 6 (72) (200) You could further optimize either of these fleets against this particular German build by downgrading three Wildcats to Marlets and upgrading another to a Hellcat (The Wildcat's additional strafing power is not needed, but the Hellcat's additional AA is useful, especially with Fighter Director). |
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| Inspiring Lieutenant |
It just occurred to me that Combat Air Patrol (CAP) can be foiled by stationing a single fighter above the enemy's carrier. The presense of this fighter, even if it gets aborted, prevents all enemy fighters from using CAP. Therefore, the German player can just place a single Bf109 above each carrier and not worry about Allied fighters reacting to his Kondors' range 1 attacks; though, Fighter Director would still work.
Therefore, the fleets I just posted are slightly less viable against this German build. |
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| Tincancaptain |
If we're going with FS ships my 200pt US objective fleet of choice would be:
2 Alaskas 56pts 4 San Diegos 44pts 8 Phelps 80pts 2 Laffeys 18pts total 198pts |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Consider my bubble not burst.
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| Okie |
I have tried your fleet and it IS KILLER!! Okie | ||||
| jfkziegler |
So, for another in my long line of playtests of this fleet, I playtested it against Fuso's build. I thought for a while that Fuso's build has a chance, because all of the fighters seemed to deal with the Kondors very well. However, the Germans had some very lucky antiair rolls, with BF-109's shooting down two Wildcats and two Avengers. The Kondors eventually took out Saratoga, while the subs took out Tennessee. The Laffeys succumbed to strafing and gunnery. If I had to enter a tournament tomorrow, there is no question that KoD's is the Axis fleet I would bring. | ||||
| wilt57 |
Don't encourage him! His head is already big enough.
wilt57 |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Haha. You're going down Wilt.
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| Bubbaman |
How about this?
4 Fencer 1 Ark Royal 6 Barracuda 5 Beaufighter 1Sea Hurricane |
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| jfkziegler |
First of all,  Bubbaman.
Second, though, I think you may be on to something here. The Fencers would be terrific against the Kondors, and their Expert ASW would help against the subs. They're a tad pricey, but they might do the trick. I think I would make it a split Anglo/American fleet, though, and run Avengers for the extra ASW help. |
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| Rangefinder |
Re: My Ass Whoopin' Fleet. (Vs. ALL)
Good and imaginative build, but as listed you are one over the 20-unit limit for a 200-point scenario. |
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| jfkziegler |
Good point, Rangefinder. I missed that in earlier discussions.
I have to say, though, that I find the unit limit a little ridiculous. Personally, I think we want to encourage swarm fleets. It gives a bit of variety with all the air heavy builds and BB heavy builds out there. |
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| Rangefinder |
You have a good point as well, but he's only one over, so I'm sure a way could be found around it. Twenty units at 200 points is a lot of stuff, and you can only start so many units on the standard map to begin with. I'm not against swarms or whatever anybody agrees they want to play, but I'm not particularly interested in bumping up against 50 destroyers in a 500-point game, either (or 10 battleships, for that matter). We can disagree over what type of parameters should be set, but I think there's got to be a unit limit of some kind, especially in big-point games. |
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| The_lucky_Y |
Unit limit???? Hope that dumb**** rule went off in the next official rulesbook.
we always play bring what you want only must fit into point limit and maybe airbase limit of the points, ok and semihistorical limits(we allow to have two zeppelins) |
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| Inspiring Lieutenant |
Re: My Ass Whoopin' Fleet. (Vs. ALL)
Maybe drop one Kondor, upgrade the Admiral Hipper to Admiral Scheer, and upgrade two U510's to U66's in order to meet the 20 unit limit. |
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| IJN Fuso |
Nice build. I'll have to try this and some variations on it. I tried getting a Fencer in the build I posted earier, but in the end it came down to a Fencer or an Archerfish. I decided to go with the Archerfish. But maybe a Fencer swarm like the one you posted is the way to go! One suggestion - the problem with Barracudas is that they more fragile than the Avenger and they will get shot down. So maybe exhange a BF for a Hurricane and upgrade 2 Barracudas to Avengers. In any event, this fleet may have potential... |
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| wilt57 |
I have noticed in the past that a British build of some sort ends up being the answer to KoD's German builds. Funny how accurate history is!
About the number of units, I knew that rule was in the book, but I have never thought of counting recently. For such a long time we never got close to that limit, so we stopped paying attention. That may be a breaking point for this build for it relies upon its numbers, good catch. wilt57 |
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| Lt_V |
KOD,
you started some stuff here LOL I stuck with the first two sets as you did, but when set III is released then I may try another build. How about this? Iowa Baltimore x2 Atlanta x1 Butler x4 Barb x5 200 even Not sure how this would work out but my idea behind it is that a Butler is paired up with each of the other surface ship and would move towards the objectives together, the Barbs would remain out front to offer protection to the group against the U510s. The group has solid AA and should be decent against attack 9 (it really makes the 109s a waste except for attacking the Butlers)...the keys are to slow down/stop the U510s and use the ER on the Iowa and Baltimores to put some hurting on the Zeps, Hipper and Zara or at least keep them off the objectives...the Kondors are limited in thier effectiveness with this build. the iowa and balts each have TD1 to give them some extended life against the subs and the Butlers can be dispatched to hit the subs or at least limit thier effectiveness. I am pretty busy at the moment, if someone wants to try it out I would love to see the results...if not, I will try it when I get back from vacation. As for the 20 unit limit, I think thats crap, if you can deploy them within the stacking limits then that is enough of a limit in my opinion. |
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| Inspiring Lieutenant |
I think the Kondors are more effective against this build than you realize. I think it would go like this: Turn 1: The 7 Kondors use their ASM's to cripple/vital all four Butlers and sink the Atlanta. Turn 2: Bf109's finish off any remaining Butlers Turn 3: The Kondors return and reduce most of the Barbs' torpedo rolls to 1 each, with ASW threat, leaving the U-boats free to attack the surface ships or blow the Barbs out of the water with 4 rolls each. I think we get the picture. Don't underestimate the Kondor. |
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| Lt_V |
yes, you are right about the ASM, I had forgotten about those 
oh well back to the drawing board
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| USS Yorktown (CV-5) |
It´s pretty ironic that in many of these matchups it´s the Kondor´s ASW torpedo reduction factor that is the icing on the cake. I say ironic because it was a rule that was added after the game had been out for awhile to make sub-cheese builds LESS effective! | ||||
| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
Re: My Ass Whoopin' Fleet. (Vs. ALL)
Crap. I had totally forgotten about that!... Maybe the Schlesweig Holstein will be around 30 pts. and not suck. Then I can replace the zara and hipper with it. |
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| Tincancaptain |
I still think my build of:
Hellcat x 8 80pts Dauntless/Avenger 13/14pts Princeton 16pts Laffey x 10 90pts Total 199/200pts has the best chance against KOD's build. |
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| Kondors_Over_Dakota |
I'd play against that Tin. But besides standing a chance against my fleet (to which it's almost solely tailored to) I think it would have trouble with the majority of other strong fleets out there. Especially if that build includes a couple sturdy BB's.
The point here is that while we all look for a fleet that can reliably beat the Kondor build that it has to ALSO be balanced enough to beat everythign else out there as well. |