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firesdstny

How do YOU think national clubs should operate?

I think the clubhouse is going to undergo a small restructure with the moderator shake-up ND is suggesting.

The Theatre league was spun off from the national clubs over a purported advantage in material that the theatres had access to.  In general, I felt the initial lists for the theatres were actually more restricted, but regardless, the theatre clubs have not suffered and indeed to seem to be a fairly self-sustaining entity.  Slightly different rulesets differentiate the leagues, and it is interesting how far some of the new TP/TN/TAe cards can cast their shadows into activity of the different theatres...

But I do see a blurring of the lines happening in the National Club Leagues again.  I know I am one opinion, but I would think that the addition of 216 cards from TP/TN/TAe would have helped each of the nationals (save possibly the Soviets) attain enough independence that the need for long/powerful lend lease lists was over.  This is actually one of the appeals of the national league over the theatre league - if the unit belongs to your nation of choice (or minor affiliate) it is legal for use!

While historically the allies especially shared/sold/leased/exported and most odiously from the rules/game standpoint operated technology and equipment from other nations, there is a push - particularly among aircraft - to allow the historically operated units to be available to the national clubs for play.  

I do not think this is an issue limited to a specific club, although obviously this primarily affects 3 clubs (US, UK, Red).  So I'd like to know where you guys stand as a club house on the lend lease issue.

Proposal #1:
A national club is just that.  National units only with minor affiliates:

Proposal #2:
A national club can use the units it historically operated in addition to its minor affiliates.


Under Proposal #1 this would be strict.  Proposal #2 would loosen this a bit and add some limited lend leasing to this.

Club USN: All USN cards.

Club IJN: All IJN + Thai cards.

Club KM: All KM + Finn cards.

Club RM: All RM + Romanian cards

Club RN:  All UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Poland and Greek cards available.  I believe there are restrictions for Poland/Greece.

Club FFN:  All French cards.

Club VFN: Some French cards (weirdos Smile )

Club Dutch:  Dutch only (though with access to FN navies - possibly set to change now that major units are available through TP/TN/TAe)

Club Red: All USSR cards + some lend leasing to represent extensive operation/adoption.

In addition to voting I would love to hear opinions as to why you chose that viewpoint below! Very Happy
bunyan

I think you could possibly add Vincy French to Germany?  didn't they operate under german orders?  

Dutch is getting bigger but they could use some other nations (depending on lend lease) also weren't they overran by Germany and used to launch attacks?

but overall I like where your going with this.
LcdrSwizzle

It was a tough vote for me, because I get to mix nations so much in the Indian Ocean, I don't really look forward to a lot of nation-mixing in the Nationals. However, I agree that without some of that loosening, the key word being "some", then it's hard to catch up and play fair with the Big Two!

I voted option #1 after much thought, but I did not vote strongly, or with conviction.
hokiepastor

I voted for option 2, specifically for the UK and the USSR.  Both of these nations used Lend-Lease aircraft extensively, and it affected their naval doctrine.  To deny those aircraft to them would be to fundamentally change those navies.

The importance of this is actually reflected in-game:  Lend-Lease Hurricane, GST Catalina, A-29 Kittyhawk, Hudson bomber.  My opinion is that needs to continue.

It also affected Italy, as represented in-game by the Ju87 R2.
firesdstny

hokiepastor wrote:
I voted for option 2, specifically for the UK and the USSR.  Both of these nations used Lend-Lease aircraft extensively, and it affected their naval doctrine.  To deny those aircraft to them would be to fundamentally change those navies.

The importance of this is actually reflected in-game:  Lend-Lease Hurricane, GST Catalina, A-29 Kittyhawk, Hudson bomber.  My opinion is that needs to continue.

It also affected Italy, as represented in-game by the Ju87 R2.


Club Red would get some exemptions under proposal #1 because they were woefully late to the table.  But yes, I think the nationalized options you suggested show that there might not be as much need for the other countries air options anymore.
The debate in ClubRN (which is an old one BTW) is what sparked this - and it overly affects air units where as Club Red is more globally affected (ships, PT boats, etc.).
SWO_Daddy

I voted for option 2, but in all honesty, I'm stuck between the two.  I do believe the RN should be using the Avenger, Corsair, Hellcat and Wildcat as carrier aircraft.  I believe RB deliberty omitted specific LL cards for these units and included RN ability to use these aircraft under 'Historical Limits" in the rulebook to economize on cards. I wouldn't want to see their use on RN carrier decks restricted.

Outside of that, the proliferation of other aircraft is getting out of hand in my opinion.  There should be a balance here of course and in some cases I think its still entirely reasonable, but with the number of additional cards from what is now 8 (about to be 9) decks, its needed less and less.  For example, I used to believe the Soviets really needed the P-40, but with the LL Hurricane and Yak, its not really needed at all, but its continued availablity means no one uses the LL Hurr unless they are just being whimsical.  Club FFN have a slew of foreign cards acting as various proxies and LL units, all without any kind of added year restriction - with the addition the Team Sea God decks, I don't really think they 'need' them nearly as much as they once did to be competitive.

I'm all for the ability to mix and match we get in the Theater Clubs, and I do understand the need to some Lend Leasing in the National League, but I don't think it needs to get out of hand. I made a recent post in the Club USN thread reflecting how corny this could really get (see the enties for the Hudson and the Seafire) - I'm not really in favor of this sort of craziness, but if we're going to really go ape with Lend Leasing, it should apply to everyone. Hopefully, we won't get to a point where somebody claims the existance of some captured aircraft gives the USN the right to operate Zeros.

All that being said, I am actively working on a bunch of "Lend Lease" and foreign operator cards.  There are more in the Forumini Custom Cards. They are not official of course, but we've always had the rule in the clubhouse that players could use custom cards like the Forumini stuff by mutual agreement.  If both players are good with it (most usually are), maybe that provides a possible "out" here.
danaussie

Hi Fires & All,

A fantastically well timed poll sir, and well done for putting it up, I voted for option 2 as I feel it is the only responsible choice considering "why" the National Clubs were founded in the first place.

I have so much more I would like to say to you all about this, but I certainly dont want to be responsible for opening up a whole can of worms that has been brought up before so many times.

I am here to rebuild Club Royal Navy...and yes I would like to play some games perhaps in a short time with you all, but I am still largely settling back in.

Its great to see you all again, Sublime and Fires are doing a superb job. Well Done Guys. Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
Solomiranthius

Unfortunately Sublime has been MIA for over a year. But fires (and many others who have taken over the reigns of various clubs) have been doing a great job of keeping it going.

I am with SWO where I am between the two. I really have nothing to add to his post.

---------

Also, welcome back Dan. Very Happy Good to see you again!
Flakstruk

Haven't voted -yet.
I'm sort of inclined to go 1 at the moment, unless a specific and important gap in a line up exists (ie no unit with SS for France before we got the bev) then it should really be nation pure as possible.
The RN is a special case as it has been explicitly stated in the rules that they treat us birds as their own,

It shouldn't be up to the clubhouse to balance even eventuality, leave that to players. If I know I'm weak in late years or against air then I should be speaking to my opponent about conditions or dare I say it - handicaps
A clubhouse handicap list could change things up a fair bit
Brigman

Well, I'll second what SWO said.  I fully support nations using units they historically used.  But there's a bit of quantity to consider.  Having (for example) USS Richmond available for the Soviets, seems fine.  Having the Brits us the TBF or TBF-1, almost required.  

The thing about the Dauntless?  It's thin. The units SWO recently listed for the USN are just as qualified.  The IJN captured enough P40s to operate a squadron out of Rabaul, should I add them to the IJN roster?

I'd say no.  I think operational strength for aircraft should be respected.  

But I don't want to take away the Russian P-40 or the Brit TBF.  So ... I vote #2, but with a caveat of some common sense?
torpman

I would say #2, but you would have to get permission to use units from the moderators here by majority rules. We have 5 mods here so if 3 of the 5 vote yes for a proposal it is ok. Just my 2 cents.
SeaAngel

I voted for # 1 simply because "National" is in the title.  

I thought that one of the goals of the National League was to encourage us to play national navies other than just USN or IJN.

If we want a more historically accurate list of units for each navy then maybe we need an "Historical League".
Admiral Woodside

I voted for:

Proposal #2 - National with minor affiliates and historically operated Lend Lease options (restricted)

because it seemed to be an unambiguous poll for a change. Then I read the post associated with the poll, and see the poll misrepresents what it appeared to be claiming. It is not really a Lend Lease option at all. Only the SU seems to retain LL aircraft. And then suddenly Poland and Greece are added to the Commonwealth? That's news to me. I also agree with others in this thread that the RN operated historically numerous US aircraft, with some carriers filled with nothing but US aircraft. It seems pretty well documented historically, and there is reference to it in the rulebook even. And really, CRN is not suddenly a Tier 1 nation even with the specific LL aircraft previously well known about. The SBD was only an idea I floated, but seems to be out now, because we do not have the specific official card to fit the NZ squadron that flew for the Commonwealth. But, the rest, including Avenger, Corsair, Hellcat, Wildcat, PBY's and a couple more should stay. Same thing with the KM aircraft for Italy, they should have them. They need the help.

So, rather than this external micromanagement attempt, it should be up to clubs to do what they are already doing, play balance their own games, by year limits, OoB, etc.

So my vote should be interpreted as no change to the current nation clubs Lend Lease aircraft units they can document historically, and no Poland and Greek with the Commonwealth for goodness sakes. As far as affiliated nations with the Germans and SU, etc, perhaps if they want. Doesn't bother me.

Admiral Woodside
Flakstruk

It should be clarified that the LL for UK is a special case as it allowed per historical restrictions, US aircraft (dauntless included) may base on RN carriers. That's good enough for me.

If we're talking about Warhawks in French and soviet navies, me109s in Italian navies and so on that's a different discussion.
firesdstny

Admiral Woodside wrote:
I voted for:

Proposal #2 - National with minor affiliates and historically operated Lend Lease options (restricted)

because it seemed to be an unambiguous poll for a change. Then I read the post associated with the poll, and see the poll misrepresents what it appeared to be claiming.


Nope, you read it right.  Option one was strict nation-pure (with minors).  Option 2 is nationpure + minors + historically operated lend lease units.  

USSR is the odd case for option 1, and on-par with everyone else for option 2 (just needing more help than most).
Admiral Woodside

Flakstruk wrote:
It should be clarified that the LL for UK is a special case as it allowed per historical restrictions, US aircraft (dauntless included) may base on RN carriers. That's good enough for me.

If we're talking about Warhawks in French and soviet navies, me109s in Italian navies and so on that's a different discussion.

Yes, you are right, mate. Good clarification. When I mentioned LL aircraft for Italy, I was recalling Club Med, a totally different case. Now, having had another look at CRM I see no mention of Lend Lease German aircraft, nor any discussion of allowed units, for that matter. And CRM's description has not been updated for what appears to be years now. Shocked

Just for reference, from the 2010 Rulebook, under Historical Fleet Restrictions, it states:

Quote:
Carriers: Fighters, Dive Bombers, and Torpedo bombers from the United States can base on a United Kingdom carrier. All other Carriers can only base Aircraft of their own nationality.


This is excepted by specific card SAs, which nullify the above limits to only UK carriers, e.g., Wildcat Operations on the French carrier Bearn. So US Wildcats should be a valid LL option for France presumably.

The forum has then gone forward, with great expenditure of effort, to further clarify the issue with the W@S Class Limits sticky, since the specification by RB was clearly incomplete, and partially wrong, since after all not all US carrier aircraft operated on UK carriers historically, etc. In the context of the National Clubs, CRN generally followed an even more restrictive subset of the W@S Class Limits for US aircraft. I was generally satisfied with their Lend Lease list, and it was a major reason I joined CRN. I sought only to add the Moderator agreed upon Avenger specification to the list, and was toying with the NZ operated Dauntless. At any rate, I think that the W@S Class Limits sticky should be a primary guide in deciding whether an aircraft should be allowed as Lend Lease for the National Clubs, and further historical evidence could be provided to verify the Class Limits as necessary.

While some people think the distinction between the two leagues is blurring, to me, the biggest distinction between the two has always been that the National Clubs have only an Axis or only an Allied nation plus close affiliates, while the Theater Clubs have both Axis and Allied nations in a specific theater to choose from. That does not seem likely to change. Any blurring that is occurring seems to me just a result of following more closely the W@S Class Limits and historical theater limits when applied to the particular club's circumstances.

Having said that, someone did ask whether the Vichy France rule should apply to National Clubs (on the same page, pg. 41 of the 2010 Rulebook, as the UK Carrier rule on basing USA aircraft). And there is also a Post-surrender Italy rule on that page as well. As I don't have a dog in that race, I will leave it to those European National clubs to decide that for themselves. It seems like they have already done so as far as I can tell.

So I am not convinced we need to really change anything at all with the National Clubs. It has all been worked out with great effort to get to where it is now. Do people really want to rehash the whole thing at this late date?

Admiral Woodside
LcdrSwizzle

Whatever is going on would benefit from being finished before the next season starts, agreed!
squint181

You will have to pry the P-40 and Catalina cards from my cold dead hands.

Seriously though, I think mixing cards are fine as long as you impose the 1 per 50 point rule. And a bit of restraint is in order.  Don't think people would appreciate Club Red launching Seafires off the Graf Z, even if there is a glimmer of historical reasoning behind it.
danaussie

I agree, and I think that is what the majority of the National Clubs are doing as we speak Swizz. I know that is what the few active members at CRN are doing right now.

But first let me say, fantastic discussion, it's amazing what you can learn just by taking the time to read and digest a thread like this one.

Woody and I have been chatting at length about this for the majority of the day. I'm not following him in some places and am following him very we'll in others in relation to the SBDs.

I think Flak reminded me of something while going through the process with Woody. The point that the rules clearly state that UK builds may have US aircraft. But I don't feel this should be unrestricted in terms of a Nation Only based club as is what we are trying to build with CRN.

Having said that however I am 100% behind the notion of Lend Lease aircraft in CRN but more for Historical Flavour at least on my part more than any competitive advantage they may bring to the table-top. I'm rather Puritan about my UK builds, I'm sorry guys it's just how I roll.

I think we are getting there with it we are just sorting which SBD is the right one for our application. The rest of the Lend Lease spread is fine with year restrictions and unit restrictions in place.

We are sure the Club House will approve of what we have come up with.

Dan
LcdrSwizzle

One option about that SBD, and it would need to be "rushed" for the tournament would be to make a new "forumini" card which ClubRN then "blesses".

Just thinking outloud, offering options. As a ClubKM member I expect to face, not use, whatever your decision ends up being!

Nicht Wahr?
SeaAngel

LcdrSwizzle wrote:
Just thinking outloud, offering options. As a ClubKM member I expect to face, not use, whatever your decision ends up being!

Nicht Wahr?


Anch'Io!
Vetnor

I voted but I want change my vote now.

Is there any way I can change my vote?
firesdstny

Vetnor wrote:
I voted but I want change my vote now.

Is there any way I can change my vote?


Just state your opinion vet.  This poll is in no way binding, I just wanted (and got) a good discussion going.  Some clubs are more affected than others, but that is the point of all this Smile

@squint:  why not give up the p40 when you have the nearly identical LLHurri?  Just curious.  Pby over gst I fully understand, but people are hardcore for the p40 when a29 and LLHurri are practically the same.
hokiepastor

firesdstny wrote:
Pby over gst I fully understand, but people are hardcore for the p40 when a29 and LLHurri are practically the same.


In fact, I much prefer the A-29 over the P-40.  More flexibility (can be used as a ground attack plane and an escort).  But that's just me.
squint181

firesdstny wrote:
Vetnor wrote:
I voted but I want change my vote now.

Is there any way I can change my vote?


Just state your opinion vet.  This poll is in no way binding, I just wanted (and got) a good discussion going.  Some clubs are more affected than others, but that is the point of all this Smile

@squint:  why not give up the p40 when you have the nearly identical LLHurri?  Just curious.  Pby over gst I fully understand, but people are hardcore for the p40 when a29 and LLHurri are practically the same.


Both A-29 and P-40 have +1 Armor and rugged over the LLCain, at the same cost no less.  When I first did the unit list for Club Red, I followed Frozen Seas lead and took the P-40 and left the A-29 off.  Thought it was kinda redundant to have both at the time, but now I wonder if both should be on there.  I will see if the other Club Navies adopt a 'got to get them all' approach to their ship lists and then put it up for consideration in Club Red.

It is a slippery slope though. Too much leeway an each navy will have this melting pot of foreign units.  Especially with air.  Almost every European nation can stake a claim on a foreign plane via them being downed over enemy territory.  

Case in point form Wiki
Only one B-24 was officially delivered to the USSR according to the Lend-Lease agreements, stranded in Yakutsk while flying a government mission to the Soviet Union in November 1942. In addition, 73 Liberators of various models that had force-landed on European airfields were recovered and 30 of them were repaired and used by the 45th BAD.

Not saying that the B-24 needs to be on the Club Red list, but it could be there.  Also there is a good chance that the Soviets won't be getting a fighter in the TA deck.  Was really hoping for a mid tier, 8AA fighter to fill the gap between the LL and Yak.  Seafire would sure fit the bill since Britain sent over 3000 Spitfires.  And since Club Red doesn't have an official carrier (thankfully), it's not like it will be used in a role that the Soviets never would have been able to use it in.


Like I posted earlier, taking in justifiable cards from other navies is fine, as long as a imposed cap is placed.  I like 1 per 50 points.
Flakstruk

Then France gets seafires as spitfires and yaks for the volunteer pilots they sent to Russia. Too slippery in my reckoning. Unless there is a definite gap, shadowing for example, less is more
danaussie

LcdrSwizzle wrote:
One option about that SBD, and it would need to be "rushed" for the tournament would be to make a new "forumini" card which ClubRN then "blesses".

Just thinking outloud, offering options. As a ClubKM member I expect to face, not use, whatever your decision ends up being!

Nicht Wahr?


Dammit...you got me out of bed Swizz. Wink  Laughing  I was following this discussion on my Iphone between this thread and the CRN Rebuild thread.

It seems clear to me that there are all valid points here from everyone. The Rulebook clearly states we are able to operate US (Carrier) aircraft in our builds so I dont believe anyone could have any objection to CRN fielding them based on that alone. So what we are really doing here is applying our "own" restriction roughly based on historical grounds. Once again I dont have an objection, this is the way the National Clubs should operate and as far as I am aware "do" operate.

On the subject of the SBD we are dealing with an aircraft that was used sparingly by RNZAF and for only a short period of time, the question of whether or not they should be used has been answered by the W@S rules firstly and then by Club RN secondly, they are our boys and we "will" be covering them.

The only question that seems to be now on the table is which SBD? It seems that we just simply dont have the correct card to cover the RNZAF SBD. Some aspects of the SBD3 are right while others of the same card are not, similarly with the SBD5 and SBD. The SBD5 seems to be the closest but pointed wrong if land based. (correct me if any of this is wrong).

So it seems the only prudent thing to do is to ask that a Forumini card be made for this application using everything that has been tabled here and in the CRN Rebuild discussion threads. As a strong believer that "necessity is the mother of invention" it seems exactly what we should be doing.

Dan Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy
LcdrSwizzle

G'morning Dan! Wink

Since we are talking about a card that Club RN wants, once the card is made, Club RN just "blesses" it and done!

Gotta go to AA practice ... those German Flak guns can't wait for that SBD card! Wink
danaussie

Mornin mate Laughing

Dan
Brigman

It's worth noting that the rulebook allows US aircraft on UK carriers.  There's nothing in the book that would allow the UK to operate US patrol bombers or land-based planes.

That said, since Club RN has restricted itself to historical lend-lease planes (such as the TBF-1, Avenger, Wildcat, Hellcat, Corsair) and avoided the ones Britain barely ever operated (Dauntless, Helldiver), I think we were all cool with the RN getting lend-lease craft they historically operated.  It's actually a more stringent standard, as long as it is applied reasonably and not on a slippery slope.

As Squint has mentioned, Club Red took notes from Club Frozen Seas.  When CFS first formed, they gave the Russians access to some lend-lease stuff because at the time, the LL Hurricane wasn't even out yet, and the Soviets had no fighter.  Times changed.  The restructuring of the clubhouse into Theater/National clubs saw a chunk of Soviet units taken away from CFS, while they retained the lend-lease stuff.  And the Team Fish-head cards have added Russian units to the game (although due to the stupid line-splitting, half of them don't go to CFS... Rolling Eyes ).

It depends on how slippery we want our slopes.  The IJN operated P40s out of Rabaul that they captured in Burma.  They captured Lamotte-Piquet and Hr.Ms. Soerbaijia, among others.  But I have no plans to add these to the Club IJN roster.  

I do think we could all, especially Club Presidents, go back and look at our rosters with an eye towards what TP, TN and TA has given us and see if some of the "lend/lease" stuff we have on our roster is superflous, or really needed any longer.

But as I can attest, it is far easier (and less painful) to ADD to a club than SUBTRACT.  There was real resentment over some of the "reach in and take away" stuff that occurred during the clubhouse restructure.  I think Squint's feelings about giving up the P40 and PBY "when pried from his cold dead fingers" illustrates this...
danaussie

My apologies Brigsy, yes I meant US Carrier Aircraft. Still the context is the same in relation to the SBD.

PS: Edited for clarity.

Dan Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy
torpman

Brigman wrote:
It depends on how slippery we want our slopes.  The IJN operated P40s out of Rabaul that they captured in Burma.  They captured Lamotte-Piquet and Hr.Ms. Soerbaijia, among others.  But I have no plans to add these to the Club IJN roster.  

There is a difference between captured and useful. Soerabaia was a worthless hulk that Japan could not really do anything with. Lamotte-Piquet was disarmed if I recall correctly. And for the P 40s, it is one thing to have and fly the planes, and another to keep them actually running well. They would last a month and a half tops without replacement parts of  Japan had none. And they would only be effective fighters for half of those one and a half months. One reason the US P 40 Es on Java had so many problems is that they had no spare engines or anything and wore out extremely quickly.
Admiral Woodside

Brigman wrote:
It's worth noting that the rulebook allows US aircraft on UK carriers.  There's nothing in the book that would allow the UK to operate US patrol bombers or land-based planes.

Wow, that is a very good point. It seems no matter how many times one reads the W@S rules and SA's, there is always one more nuance! Technically, CRN could only operate the Dauntless from a carrier by the 2010 rules. The implication is that the W@S Class Limits sticky is not only restricting aircraft to a smaller and more historical subset of aircraft, it is also adding land based and patrol aircraft to the W@S arsenals, thus going beyond the rule book. As long as the majority agree that's fine, but it is good to point it out so we see what we are doing. Good read of the rules there Brigman.

Regards,

Admiral Woodside
LcdrSwizzle

I would also think that whatever we choose to do for the "national clubs" has nothing to do with play outside of those clubs. We don't go to the rule book for "national club" play, we go to whatever the club presidents and club tournament organizers say. What they say "trumps" the rulebook, ONLY in Nat'l Club Tourney Play.

It's great to have this discussion now, in advance of the "TAe-equipped" National Tourney coming up.
SeaAngel

LcdrSwizzle wrote:
I would also think that whatever we choose to do for the "national clubs" has nothing to do with play outside of those clubs. We don't go to the rule book for "national club" play, we go to whatever the club presidents and club tournament organizers say. What they say "trumps" the rulebook, ONLY in Nat'l Club Tourney Play.

It's great to have this discussion now, in advance of the "TAe-equipped" National Tourney coming up.


I think that this hits the nail on the head.  National League can be whatever we agree upon.
Brigman

Exactly.

But we do play by the rules.  I strongly oppose any "handwavium" on changing official cards - such as modifying Warspite to have TD or flying Land Fighters off of carriers - as part of a club's rules.  

Now if people wanna play with ForumMini Navies cards or SWO's cards or enebrantain's or whomever's - that's up to them (and their opponent) - and is totally kosher. Wink
danaussie

I agree, we should all be very cautious and I dont think this applies necessarily to "just" the Clubhouse either. I think we should tread with extreme caution on what we implement and what we dont implement.

I think that National Clubs should use Nation Only builds with Lend Lease options (restricted) and when I say restricted I mean responsibly restricted. A particular units historical factors should be carefully scrutinized, its availablility its length of service, everything. If it is "reasonable" to add such a unit to your roster under these careful considerations, then I dont see any reason why they should not be added. Even then the units should be "agreed" upon before the commencement of play by both opponents. Club Royal Navy will be adding this text in relation to the use of "any" custom cards.

Dan Very Happy
Flakstruk

I'm just like, going to play with the French cards.
danaussie

Flakstruk wrote:
I'm just like, going to play with the French cards.


Well I can certainly respect that decision mate, but Im dealing with a whole different creature here, with all due respect to the Free French Navy guys.

Dan Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy
firesdstny

danaussie wrote:
Even then the units should be "agreed" upon before the commencement of play by both opponents. Club Royal Navy will be adding this text in relation to the use of "any" custom cards.

Dan Very Happy


Dan I'm only quoting you because of its obvious mention, but I do want to make clear that as far as club matches and the league season goes the Team Sea God decks are official.  They do not need to be explicitly included in match setup.

SWO's, entabrantain's, Forumini Navy's, Doberman's, Scorn Defeat's, LuckyY's and/or etc. cards should be expressly agreed upon by both players beforehand.  If you and your opponent want to exclude the SeaGod decks, then that is something else to be discussed and agreed upon at match setup, but otherwise, they are not considered custom cards and do not need to be spelled out and agreed upon prior to starting a match.
danaussie

firesdstny wrote:
danaussie wrote:
Even then the units should be "agreed" upon before the commencement of play by both opponents. Club Royal Navy will be adding this text in relation to the use of "any" custom cards.

Dan Very Happy


Dan I'm only quoting you because of its obvious mention, but I do want to make clear that as far as club matches and the league season goes the Team Sea God decks are official.  They do not need to be explicitly included in match setup.

SWO's, entabrantain's, Forumini Navy's, Doberman's, Scorn Defeat's, LuckyY's and/or etc. cards should be expressly agreed upon by both players beforehand.  If you and your opponent want to exclude the SeaGod decks, then that is something else to be discussed and agreed upon at match setup, but otherwise, they are not considered custom cards and do not need to be spelled out and agreed upon prior to starting a match.


Ok copy that mate, I was not aware of this development.

Cheers Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
Flakstruk

This is beginning to feel a bit like trench warfare to me, "hold everything that can be held" Sad

I've voted 1
Vetnor

I'm easy and will accept what ever you guys decide on.
I'm new to the club so I'm not going to try to influence your decisions one way or the other.

I accept TX cards but that does not mean I may use them. FYI I don't consider any card that doesn't come with a mini official but that's me.
Flakstruk

Flakstruk wrote:
This is beginning to feel a bit like trench warfare to me, "hold everything that can be held" Sad

I've voted 1


I had a think about this subject and I don't want to have tantrum because I don't fully agree with the prevailing views of the clubhouse.
Its prompted me to renew the my club's HQ. I've elected to change to simply Club France for one thing as I play Vichy as often as allied.
Within the new club room I'm going to dedicate a significant amount of time to historical-OOB guidelines for different phases of the war. I can play with full options when I like but can also recreate a historical formation if I prefer. I hope some of the other clubs will follow suit Smile
danaussie

Don't let that bother you too much Flak, I very rarely agree with the prevailing views of the Clubhouse and haven't for quite some time now. Wink  Laughing

I have learned to try and go with the flow a little more these days. I like the idea although I'm not entirely sure what you mean about "historical OoB".

The move from FFN to CFN is a good idea I think it gives you the ability to play both sides of the fence as it were. But isn't NDs club Club Vichy France, won't he have most of his members jumping ship to be able to play more options?

Dan Very Happy
Azrael

Voted option 1, this is starting to get a bit silly on the LL front.
LcdrSwizzle

In "normal" battles, we can do all the mixing and matching to which the 2 protagonists agree. ONLY the rule book limits their choices.

In "Theater" club battles, both are limited by the rules set for the sake of the Theater Club Tournemant.

As I see it ... the same is ok for National Clubs, were both are limited by the rules set for the sake of the Tournament.

There are some players who will never play year, but in these tourneys they must learn to do so. I see nothing wrong with forces people to learn a few extra cards beyond their favorites if they want to be in a tournament.
Brigman

Club IJN has no designs on "lend lease" or captured units.

Currently, we allow 1 Thai unit per 100 points in a build - unless the entire fleet is Thai (good for small battles only).

In looking over the clubs, I see Club KM allows unrestricted use of the Finns, Swedes and Romanians.  Perhaps we are being overly picky by limiting the Thai thusly?  Something to review...

But in any case, Club IJN has no aspirations on anyone else's swag. Wink
Azrael

Brigman wrote:
Club IJN has no designs on "lend lease" or captured units.

Currently, we allow 1 Thai unit per 100 points in a build - unless the entire fleet is Thai (good for small battles only).

In looking over the clubs, I see Club KM allows unrestricted use of the Finns, Swedes and Romanians.  Perhaps we are being overly picky by limiting the Thai thusly?  Something to review...

But in any case, Club IJN has no aspirations on anyone else's swag. Wink


1 per 100 seems pretty restrictive I personally think the ijn should use as many Thai units as they desire so unrestricted use.
Brigman

Thanks Az!  I don't know where I got the 1/100 idea, maybe someone suggested it.  But my goal was to keep the games mostly IJN and not too much Thailand.  Then again, considering the quality of Thai units... that's probably unnecessary. Laughing
LcdrSwizzle

Brigman wrote:
In looking over the clubs, I see Club KM allows unrestricted use of the Finns, Swedes and Romanians.


Glad I read this, I had no idea about the Finns, Swedes and Romanians. As a ClubKM member, I can tell you I'll never use a "Swedish" unit in a National Tournament. I understand why they are included, but that doesn't mean I'll pick them. To some part of me it's just "wrong".

(Unless they are really good at shooting down lend-lease air!) Wink
torpman

When I play club battles, I always do pure Dutch. We don't need help.
Azrael

LcdrSwizzle wrote:
Brigman wrote:
In looking over the clubs, I see Club KM allows unrestricted use of the Finns, Swedes and Romanians.


Glad I read this, I had no idea about the Finns, Swedes and Romanians. As a ClubKM member, I can tell you I'll never use a "Swedish" unit in a National Tournament. I understand why they are included, but that doesn't mean I'll pick them. To some part of me it's just "wrong".

(Unless they are really good at shooting down lend-lease air!) Wink


Those allowances came from my predacessors , when I took over the Romanians were talked about and tptb I was deffering to in the clubhouse thought they should be in there with the km (they worked together in the black sea, though the km only had very small units operating there). The Finns make sense but the Swedes I think the thinking was somebody had to take them and they (Sweden) shipped ore to Germany and they helped mine Finland's waterways to protect them from Russia in the continuation war.
I personally have only used km units in my games
LcdrSwizzle

Az, I'm with you. I'm not sure "all nations" have a "right" to be in the National Club Tournaments. I believe that if a nation did not have enough Navy, or enough allies ... then it just gets to sit out the tourney.

The Swedes certainly make it in CFS, which makes plenty of sense to me.

I would have no problem if we were to change the club rules, leaving whatever Finn/Romanian in the mix and allowing the Swedes to stay out of it. But, that's just me!
Brigman

Certainly wasn't making a call for you guys to change anything.  Just trying to figure out "norms" so I know how to treat Thailand in CIJN. Wink
LcdrSwizzle

Brigman wrote:
Certainly wasn't making a call for you guys to change anything.  Just trying to figure out "norms" so I know how to treat Thailand in CIJN. Wink


No problem, you did not "call us out", you gave us an opportunity to look at what we have. I, for one, am glad you did!

I think that the National Club Presidents should have a say in each others clubs lists. Not a "vote for/against", but a consult. After all, it is done for the sake of a tournament, not for general game play.
Flakstruk

The only lend-lease/ally units i am allowing are the Me110, Fw190 and Ju88 and only in 1943 or later. That let's France keep up, saves a long LL list that ultimately doesn't add anything. You can think of them as either French designs that were complete in 1940 or German units supporting a French ally.
You can't use them with wildcats via the bearn and you have to have more French aircraft than German.
SWO_Daddy

Flak, I may not be keeping up, so please forgive me if I've missed something.  Did Club VFN fold up or merge with Club FFN?

If so, wouldn't it be better to just have two OOB lists, one for Vichy and the other for Free French?  Would be happy to help out with this.

If not, you might want to talk to the Club Vichy guys first.  I have no idea if they know about this, and wouldn't want it to become an issue down the road.
Flakstruk

SWO_Daddy wrote:
Flak, I may not be keeping up, so please forgive me if I've missed something.  Did Club VFN fold up or merge with Club FFN?

If so, wouldn't it be better to just have two OOB lists, one for Vichy and the other for Free French?  Would be happy to help out with this.

If not, you might want to talk to the Club Vichy guys first.  I have no idea if they know about this, and wouldn't want it to become an issue down the road.


No merge. Club VFN is still around to my knowledge. The only change I've made is to remove the "Free" from the club name. So long as I've been president I haven't made the distinction. Where as VFN is specific to the scuttled fleet at Toulon.

Given the new units available i've taken away the lend lease option because in almost every case there is a French unit that can do the same task (mb152 as escort instead of p-40s ect)
In the niches that remain, once Joffre and Clemenceau are available as fantasy units I'm allowing allied-German aircraft to fill the gaps that remain. If the Vichy connection bothers people, think of them as the prototypes of the late 30s that never made production after the fall of France.
Not every unit that had Lend-Lease needs to have it, it diminishes the diversity of the league.
SWO_Daddy

Fair enough.  Just trying to avoid any snags down the road.

I do think you could look at having two separate orders of battle for 1942+ or 1943+: "Vichy" or "Free".  Would give members of your club two distinct options for league and club play, not to mention letting the French "switch hit" between axis and allies in any special events we might run with the clubhouse.  Basically, a Club FN player says I'm playing Vichy (or Free) and off they go.  If you're willing to let me try, I'd be willing to put something together for you.  If you don't like it, no need.  Just thought I'd offer.  I think it could be kind of cool.

BTW guys, its not that I don't like "Lend Leasing" - I'm fine with it in historical context.  I'd rather not see foreign planes totally displace "national" planes, but that doesn't mean clubs that used aircraft historically can't have at least limited access to them.  I think the solution found on the RNZAF Dauntless is a good example of how it can be done.
Flakstruk

SWO_Daddy wrote:
Fair enough.  Just trying to avoid any snags down the road.

I do think you could look at having two separate orders of battle for 1942+ or 1943+: "Vichy" or "Free".  Would give members of your club two distinct options for league and club play, not to mention letting the French "switch hit" between axis and allies in any special events we might run with the clubhouse.  Basically, a Club FN player says I'm playing Vichy (or Free) and off they go.  If you're willing to let me try, I'd be willing to put something together for you.  If you don't like it, no need.  Just thought I'd offer.  I think it could be kind of cool.

BTW guys, its not that I don't like "Lend Leasing" - I'm fine with it in historical context.  I'd rather not see foreign planes totally displace "national" planes, but that doesn't mean clubs that used aircraft historically can't have at least limited access to them.  I think the solution found on the RNZAF Dauntless is a good example of how it can be done.


I am/will research some OOB for actions and formations, so if you wanted to play a true Vichy fleet or specific op you'd have a guide.
SWO_Daddy

OK Flak.  Just trying to keep the peace man.
Flakstruk

All sorted here?
danaussie

Looks like it chief. Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan

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