| Archive for Axis & Allies ForuMINI Specialised in the World War II Axis & Allies Miniatures and War At Sea Games |
| ericjohn |
Historically-based what-if scenarios for Graf Z. anyone?Although I am historically minded, I do enjoy exploring what-if scenarios (in fact I've posted a couple ).
However I'm having a hard time getting excited about the Graf Zeppelin in part because I can't come up with good "what-if" scenarios for Germany in 1942+, where Germany can deploy surface and carrier units with some decent chance of success or a realistic mission to accomplish. It seems like by 1942+ Hitler was not really wrong to stop investing in the surface navy, it's hard to see how they would have had a fighting chance to do anything useful, even if additional planned ships had been completed... So, my what-if's seem to get really tortured, i.e. WWII doesn't start until 1945 or something like that. Well, that's just too hypothetical to be interesting to me, and anyway Britain and France would presumably have continued to react, etc. I guess maybe you could come up with some good scenarios where Britain sues for peace in 1940 and the USN has to take on Germany alone in 1942+, while distracted fending off Japan (and OK, I'll admit I've been toying with a scenario in that vein), but even that involves a pretty long chain of assumptions Anyone got any good ideas for hypothetical but historically based engagements where we can use our upcoming Graf Zeppelin models in 1942+? What would it have taken for the Germans to be competitive? [N.D.: moved to the WAS scenarios subforum ]
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| Blackeagle |
Re: Historically-based what-if scenarios for Graf Z. anyone?
Hmm. How about a North Atlantic breakout scenario (similar to the Bismark) using Tirptiz and GZ, plus a few escorts? Maybe some attacks on convoys to Archangelsk with carrier support? |
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| afilter |
If you want to be somewhat Historical I think the GZ would have been limited to ranging out to disrupt North Atlantic and Russian convoys.
I would take Lions, Tigers and Bears scenario and sub in GZ: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/aam/ah20070123208 By 1942 I think it would have been pulverized had a breakout Bismark style been attempted. HTH, Aaron |
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| Conjurer |
What if...
stubborn old stick-in-the-muds like me refuse to engage in WAS matches when GZ is involved? 
Actually, I'll probably come around and be ok with it at some point... probably. But right now I'm still annoyed. |
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| Joachim |
Raid on Scapa
The German High Command, after the success of the RN at Taranto decide to emulate their attack on Scapa. The GZ and support vessels sails and launches an attack. For the WaS scenario you could have them intercepted beforehand, or fight a fleeing action as the GZ tries to get away. |
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| ericjohn |
That's a good one! |
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| Otto von Starkburg |
An attack on Scapa Flow make no so much sense. German bombers could reach Scapa Flow from Norway. Raid is a good idea. Raid on Murmansk or Gibraltar!
A break-out scenario is a good idea. Also a good idea: a konvoi-scenario. German forces try to intercept a konvoi on way to murmansk. This there a tactical scenario realistic for GZ. |
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| EvilKobra |
All these involve the Germans being on the offensive. In 1942+, I'd have thought the more likely scenario is that they're under attack by the RN... | ||||
| Otto von Starkburg |
The GZ would be operational in 1941. An attack on a convoy north of norway was until 1944 normal. And we talk about fictional scenarios. | ||||
| EvilKobra |
Raiding a convoy is one thing, attacking a Royal Navy base of operations is another altogether.
By February 1942 the only active KM capital ships were Admiral Scheer, Lützow and Hipper: Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were both under extensive repairs following mine damage during the Channel Dash, plus subsequent RAF raids, and Tirpitz was tied up as a fleet-in-being. Prinz Eugen was also under repairs for the whole of 1942, and restricted to training duties until 1944. In fact, the most likely scenarios I envisage for Graf Zeppelin are either as a fleet-in-being elsewhere, or to partner up with Tirpitz to afford both ships some freedom of action. |
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| HeavyJedi |
Scenario ideaWhat about in hypothetical support of Operation Sea lion?Germans never switched from airfields to cities during the Air Battle of Britain. Germans successfully construct enough invasion barges for an assualt, and at the same time are concerned about northern British fleet movement out of the range of their planes. It would be similar to Invasion of the Phillipines except Englands ships would replace the Japanese, and Germany would have to sortie to protect and shield the invasion force. |
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| Blackeagle |
I think Sealion would depend a lot on what sort of date they put on the GZ. From what I've read, she probably wouldn't have been completed until 1942 and her air group wouldn't have been trained and ready for service until 1943. That's way to late for Sealion. Of course, since she's a fantasy ship there's no telling what year of availability WoTC will put on her. | ||||
| Enge |
How about Hitler realising that Operation Overlord is not a decoy and sends the Kriegsmarine to stop the flow of reinforcements and supplies to Normandy?
Or maybe Hitler once again ignores all strategic advice, and decides that invading Iceland will grant him the upper hand in the Battle of the Atlantic. |
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| viceroy |
i like that idea | ||||
| Duck Crusader |
That second one WOULD have been a darn good idea, had he not been dumb enough to invade Russia before finishing Britain. |
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| SJG Gamer |
I find the idea of the Germans invading Iceland very ammusing; it could Not have happened. How would they get enough troops way over there? Its one thing to invade near-by Norway by slipping past the Royal Navy, but Germany successfully invading Iceland? 
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| Duck Crusader |
Airborne, sub-landed commandos, couple of troop ships, no problem. Once you have command of some airfields ship in aircraft and then what is the RN going to do? Never say never. |
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| Mad Ghost/0331 |
some one is reading red storm rising again! |
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| Demotox |
There could be a scenerio where you leave it at dock all game and see if it survives... Just a thought... If you win the game, though, you must give your Graf Zeppelin to the Russian player to your right. | ||||
| ericjohn |
I've been off-again/on-again working on a far-out scenario where Germany has defeated the UK and wants Iceland as a first step to blockading the USA. The scenario is Germany got some of the UK fleet as part of the armistice agreement, and so it's effectively Germany + UK vs. USA... |
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| USS Yorktown (CV-5) |
There were no real airfields in Iceland before the Brits arrived. So, a whole lot of infrastructure needed to be arranged before Iceland would have been of much use. No way the Germans could have managed to get a foothold there before the British would have counter-attacked. |
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| Schlachtschiff Bismarck |
battle of north cape, escorting/being escorted by scharnhorst
(still needs a KGV though) convoy hunting alone or with moderate escort grant operational(even rushed) status by early 41 to try to save Bismarck going for a long shot here: air raid on Norfolk using sub support (woulda surprised the hell outa the USN) |
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| Schlachtschiff Bismarck |
distraction sorte with all other available operational units on D-Day
"suicidal" attack on D-Day invasion with all other available operational units. primary german units Tirpitz Graf Zepelin w/ choice of aircraft Admiral Scheer Lutzow Prinz Eugan Admiral Hipper Nurnburg(koln) Leipzig(koln) Koln Add a few destroyers a few subs a few kondors Not sure what the allied response would be... any ideas? |
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| Mad Ghost/0331 |
You would face massive amounts of land based aircraft. Many 2nd line BBs (shore bombardment). I would make the German victory conditions based on destruction of JOBs (acting as the invasion force). KM survival is not really possible, so they have to wade in, ignore losses and sink transports. | ||||
| Schlachtschiff Bismarck |
to add to the scenario grant the km init for at least the first two turns
victory conditions: successfully destroy half the transports or cripple or destroy half the supporting warships |
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| The_lucky_Y |
would be difficult because there are 9 allied battleships in line(for e.g. the USS Nevada, HMS Warspite w/o the X turret) two monitors and 18 heavy cruisers. | ||||
| ericjohn |
I seem to recall in The Two Ocean War Morison said that the US initially planned not to send any significant surface units for D-Day, but the British threw up major red flags over just this sort of potential German response, and so Admiral King relented and sent several old BBs and cruisers.
So that lends some credence to the scenario - and you could do a "what-if" where the US didn't send ships, and so the British have to fight alone (one thing you could do with the scenario is have the British start with a small covering force, and then more battleships and cruisers come into play as reinforcements over several turns as they are called away from bombardment duties to deflect the German attack...) |
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| Schlachtschiff Bismarck |
so start the allies with a few cruisers and a bb to cover and then on turn 2 or 3 roll a die and a pre-number-assigned bb or cruiser comes into play on the far side of the board
for the scenario we will assume that the KM achieved complete surprise and gets initiative till turn 4 should we grant the entire KM fleet determination to help balance the scenario? what BBs did the allies have at the invasion? |
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| Task Force 57 |
Of all the "what ifs" Of WWII this one is actualy the most in keeping with Hitlers own plan of the war... Had The battle of britain been lost, had chamberlain not stepped down to let Winston step up and take charge and had the Germans/Italians put Serious pressure on the middle east in 1940 (instead of the abysinian collapse and our lads darn near grabbing libya) then its darn likely that a British empire on its knee's would cut a deal with the devil to safe guard empire....
Now, the one thing thats in the way is the Royal navy itself. if anyone out there has played "Enigma- Rising tide" you know what im talking about... The fleet sailing for canada and saying up-yours to the politicians .. or scuttling on mass like High seas fleet at scapa is more likely. |
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| Campbjj |
Fleeing to canasda, then to join the USN or Far Eastern fleet. Portect the far trade lines. Canada has fall back space between it and europe, and many ports to hide in. Even flee up the st. lawrence river. |
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| Task Force 57 |
Yup, my thoughts entirely. The only worry is the lack of commonality in guns/equipment, so the fleet might get away only to end up running out of everything!!! | ||||
| Campbjj |
Better then scapa flow or use by germany, Then guns could be retrofitted by the USN and systems edited by it for very little cost. Imagine that fifteen or so BB's sail into various american ports and request asylum. fifteen capital ship for next to little cost for the USN and unparelled strength to force  to stay on europe and keep japan in check.
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| Task Force 57 |
Darn Tooting!!!!
(im starting to get the hang of this U.S Slang... now, time for a G and T and a jam scone) Regards TF57 |
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| Captain Gideon |
If i'm not mistaken the Avalon Hill boardgame Bismarck(2nd version) has scenario's where they use most of the German surface Fleet including Graf Zeppelin.
I have a copy but need to find it then i can let you know. Captain Gideon |
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| SJG Gamer |
For those who play this game for fun and are not obsessed with dates, have the GZ sortie with the Bismark in may 1941! 
I know that the Germans didn't finish the ship to later, but if they had pushed it thru faster from the beginning, it possibly could have gone with KMS Bismark & Prinz Eugen... That would be an interesting sortie... Have Fun!!! Enjoy the hypothetical. It can be most fun. 
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| Hawker Hurricane |
The AH Bismack game included (for the Germans) Bismarck, Tirpitz, Graf Zeppelin, Scharnhurst, Gniesenau, Sheer, Prince Eugen, Hipper, Koln, Nurnburg for a mass breakout... and Strasburg, Dunkerque, plus a French CA and CL, with rules for use as both Free French and Vichy French... plus "U.S. Intervention" rules with North Carolina and Augusta. A true "Try to blockade Britain" scenario was included. |