| Archive for Axis & Allies ForuMINI Specialised in the World War II Axis & Allies Miniatures and War At Sea Games |
| Sindor |
HHR Memorial Cup Discussion Here you can freely discuss everything about the HHR Rules and Cards used in the competition.
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| RAEVSKI |
seeing as the matches are historically based, i'd like to see the cards for the units that can be used attached to the scenario 
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| Sindor |
First round maps, chosen at random by each couple:
- RUS/JAP Mandchuria 1939 (1&1-3) - CHI/JAP China 1939 (1&4-6) - GER/POL Poland 1939 (2) - RUS/POL Poland 1939 (3) - FRA+BRI/GER France 1940 (4) - Britain/Italy Eastern Africa 1940 (5) - FRA/ITA Southern France 1940 (6&1-3) - FIN/RUS Winter War 1940 (6&4-6)  Who wins the deployment roll starts and choses the side (Axis/Allies). Second player choses the area by 1D6; roll again in case of "1" or "6". Then first player choses who will deploy first - and then continue as usual.
 About the game itself (by NeuralDream):
- Usually, you should first send your army choices to the moderator (me) via message. When you've both sent it, I will post it in your match's thread and then both players can start the game. - They roll dice for set-up. - They announce their deployments (that's where the coordinates are needed on the map) and start normally by rolling for initiative and then announce their movements and assaults. - When the first turn finishes one of the two players posts the map as an image on which he has marked the locations of all units. Then they continue to the next turn etc. In general, players post the map whenever they feel it is needed for them to plan their next moves. Most of the times they use photobucket to publish their images, and usually it's only the one of the two players who makes the map. It's only for convenience. It's not really necessary as long as they use the common system of coordinates that the mapmaker has set on the map. What is necessary is that they roll the dice in their posts, so that we are certain that nobody cheats.
Nobody than an admin has now right to edit or delete any post in the HHR subforum, so nobody can cheat.
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| Sindor |
You can use all HHR cards of corresponding nationality and year  (it is not strictly historical - you may use also the units which -could- appear there and then). I hope everybody had no problem with cards download ...
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| PeterGol |
Hi everybody from Spain, nice to meet you all.
Sindor, do you mean that we can use any unit of corresponding nationality/year even if the theatre of operations doesn't correspond to the one we are playing? |
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| PeterGol |
I forgot it.
The suggestion of Raevski sounds good. I imagine it means a lot of work for you, but would be great, at least for this 1st round, to have a list with the available units per nation in each scenario. It will help so much, specially to those who are not very familiar with the HHR units. It's only a suggestion, of course. Thank you. |
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| The Mighty A |
Lets see if I got this straight.
Player A wins the deployment roll and chooses Axis. Player B rolls the die and gets a 2. So the battle is in Poland and the year limit is 1939. Since Player A chose Axis, he is Germany and Player B is Poland. If that is so, what happens in the Russia v. Poland battle. Is Russia treated as the Axis player for determining sides? |
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| Sharpe |
Buenos dias, PeterGol. Vivi en Granollers cerca de Barcelona in 1980.
Excuse the lack of accents. How do you roll the dice? |
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| RAEVSKI |
does the dice roller work here, i'll try
Rolls: (2d6)  
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| Sindor |
Eggzactly  So when you choose the side, you might not be sure that you have chosen the stronger side for the following battle.
In 1939, Soviet Union has been on the Axis side (pact Ribentropp-Molotov). As for the other questions: I strongly reccomend to read Online Matches with useful tips AND a comprehensive guide to making on-line maps. A dice roll is done by following instruction:
Rolls: (6d6)    
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| RAEVSKI |
use this code with no spaces
[dice =2d6] |
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| PeterGol |
Buenos días Sharpe , encantado de hablar contigo.
don't worry about the accents, your spanish is perfect. Not like my english!! Good luck. Sindor, you didn't answer neither raevski nor me 
**** testing dice roller **** Rolls: (2d6)
Rolls: (1d6)
Rolls: (13d6)
Rolls: (2d6)
Rolls: (1d6)
Rolls: (13d6)
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| Westentaschenschlachti |
One question about planes:
If i attach a bomb to an airplane can it attack every turn with bombs or only once a game and then with normal attack rates? |
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| Sindor |
Second thought is correct. One bomb = one bombing attempt. That is why on some bigger airplanes, you may attach 2x Small bombs. |
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| Sindor |
This will delay us substantially, as there are more than 300 units to sort. First tip: Search through the card pages for your nation symbols and if you see some, examine if they can be used for the map year (this takes cca 5 min to go through all sets). Additionally, all sets are sorted by nations, so you may forget only to employ some captured units - and that's usually not worth the effort (except chinese ).
Second tip: If you know something about the WWII history, just search for the appropriate units which you know they were in that campaign. |
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| PeterGol |
OK, thx. | ||||
| Sindor |
You may already roll on the map selection
(it's 2d6, winner choses the side, loser rolls 1D6 to determine the map; then both of you will build an army according to map rules and after revealment of forces the winner choses who will start the deployment phase.) |
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| Sindor |
PS: I remind you the pairs for first round:
 Westentaschenschlachti & Sharpe
Raevski & Polish_Cavalryman
Karpovian & PeterGol
Carrion & The Mighty A
If you perform some decision roll (as it is with the first one), try to make 2 at the same time to minimise eventual ties and waiting on re-roll ... and you may even make your map choice 1D6(+D6) roll in case you lose to shorten the decision time further. Example: I am challenging mr. XY: Rolls: (2d6) or re-Rolls: (2d6)
In case of opponent's victory, I want this map..." Rolls: (1d6) ( + eventual Rolls: (1d6) )
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| Sindor |
Oh sh... of course there should be: "In case of opponent's victory, I want this map..."
As you see, even I cannot edit my own posts so everything is perfectly prone to cheating
In the example above, I would probably win the dice duel (6+5), so we will choose my opponent's map. If not, we would start to think about the map n°3 (RUS/POL in Poland 1939) (edit by N.D.: I corrected that sentence. You may notice that due to my editing, the results of the dice rolls changed too, even though I didn't reroll) |
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| Westentaschenschlachti |
Ok lets go:
It's me vs Sharpe then: Rolls: (2d6) or reroll if needed Rolls: (2d6)
and if you win the roll then we play on this map: Rolls: (1d6) (+eventual Rolls: (1d6) )
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| Sindor |
Excellent
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| Sindor |
PS: I must stress that two pairs cannot play same map at the same time (due to the logical constraint: one room = one map, one pair). Therefore if second pair selects same map they have to re-roll as well ...
At least this is a motivation for you to select your maps as soon as possible
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| The Mighty A |
Sindor, thanks for the response. I like the way this is going to work.
So, me v. Carrion Rolls: (2d6) re-roll Rolls: (2d6)
If I win, I choose Allies If I lose, we use this map: Rolls: (1d6) (sub-roll Rolls: (1d6) )
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| karpovian |
Ok,
Me Vs PeterGol.. Rolls: (2d6) Reroll Rolls: (2d6)
Ill take the Axis if I win Map rolls: Rolls: (2d6) Rolls: (2d6)
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| PeterGol |
Hi,
So it's me against Karpovian. Rolls: (2d6) Re-roll --> Rolls: (2d6)
If I win I choose Axis. And for the scenarios: Rolls: (1d6) Sub-roll if needed Rolls: (1d6)
Good luck! |
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| PeterGol |
Al right
I think it's me with russian against Karpovian with polish, am i right? |
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| Sindor |
Yes, you won the initiative, so you choose the side first: Axis. And map is n°3: Russians against Polish in 1939. You may start now to build your armies and send them to me. MAP N°3 BLOCKED FOR KARPOVIAN AND PETERGOL BTW I have finished better unit miniatures for Set 6 for on-line games, free to use with your on-line matches: SET 6:unit icons |
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| PeterGol |
Ok Sindor. Thx for the pics.
I have two questions about the scenario, but i think i better post them in its specific post. |
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| carrion |
Myself vs. The Mighty A, here goes:
Rolls: (2d6) if needed Rolls: (2d6)
If win want Axis Map if I lose: Rolls: (1d6) if needed Rolls: (1d6)
Good Luck and let's have some fun. |
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| carrion |
Looks as if we are in Southern France, ITA/FRA, did I say I wanted to be Axis let me rethink this, just kinding. | ||||
| The Mighty A |
I am so glad that you won the roll. Otherwise, I would have been China to your Japan.
So I am France... |
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| carrion |
Yes you are, and Good Luck. Sindor a few questions:
1: Errata: Italians can field Schneider 155mm gun w/o penalty, So I can have 2 rares. 2: SA Heavy: Cannot move into a hill hex, but can it deploy in a hill hex. 3: SA Destruction 2 means... Thank you for your time. |
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| RAEVSKI |
Cool Polish Cavalryman here we go
Rolls: (2d6) if needed Rolls: (2d6)
If I win I'll be axis Map if I lose Rolls: (1d6) if needed Rolls: (1d6)
and my first round is against the Champion. Lets rock |
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| RAEVSKI |
and choose rus /fin map sorry | ||||
| Sharpe |
Greetings Herr West...
Rolls: (2d6)
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| Sharpe |
Ok, I think I won.
We're playing on the Ger/Pol map and I pick country? If so, I pick Poland and you set up first. Please correct me if I've made a mistake or an omission. Is the next step sending armies to Sindor? |
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| PeterGol |
i'm not Sindor butperhaps could answer to your 3rd question. Destruction 2 means that units attacked by this one, have -2 to cover rolls, i.e. if they are at long range, they will save only with 6s. |
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| Sindor |
Wait wait wait, everybody wants something 
Ok. ad 1: "No penalty" means "no point penalty"; normally, when using enemy units, you have to buy them for 25%+ points (rounded up) - this is because it is supposed you had to make some sacrifices when capturing enemy unit... So no 2xrares allowed. But Schneider 155mm is uncommon, anyway
ad 2: No, it cannot be moved into hill hex (general rule applies even for deployment). ad 3: Destruction 2 = enemy cover is reduced by 2 (big gun: add this to the distance penalty; so on close range, the total reduction of cover is -4). |
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| Westentaschenschlachti |
Hi
can every unit spot for artillery or only special spotters? |
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| Sindor |
You won the initiative, so you have right to choose the side. Your opponent chose map n°2 (GER/POL) and you can choose who deploys first. Now it's on you to build the armies according to the map rules. |
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| Sindor |
Only spotters may guide the artillery. The story behind: every unit can call for artillery support. But due to their inaccurate directions, artillery has Dispersion. Only Spotters are experienced enough to eliminate fire dispersion (and target accurately the enemy = negating his cover) |
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| Westentaschenschlachti |
That means only with a unit in range and los artillery can fire indirect. And only with a special spotter it can fire accuratly.
Perfect, thanks |
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| Sindor |
Waaaaait ... this is even more detailed that the rules we have written
If you both agree on this scheme during your game (L.O.S. of friendly unit needed), then no problem - this is quite nice and logical rule I haven't even thought of. But with current rules you can fire indirectly on every unit on the map - Dispersion apply unless having spotter within 8 hexes with LOS of the enemy unit. (eventual argument for this option: even if you do not see the enemy units, you hear them and you see rising dust, smoke etc.). |
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| Polish_Cavalryman |
what do I need to do now? If you want Axis and Rus/Fin map that is fine with me. I don't have any preference whatsoever as I really don't know how to play HHR. |
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| Sindor |
Now go to the room with corresponding map and read carefully scenario specifications. Then choose your army (50 pts, 1 rare etc.) from HHR soviet units with introduction year 1939. Send it to me. When both players will have their armies, I will publish them and you may start to deploy. |
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| Westentaschenschlachti |
I can understand that when firing at tanks, but infantry? You cant really hear infantry lets say 10 hexes away behind a forest. I will ask sharpe if he agrees that at least someone has to have line of sight to an unit to call artillery support. |
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| Sindor |
But what you will do when somebody will hide its Artillery behind a forest? Artillery is also a Soldier. And what about units you have seen previously which will dissapear behind a forest/hill hex? I advise not to complicate the rules without previous testing. I remember now that we have postponed this option because of disbalance it created. |
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| Westentaschenschlachti |
Mhm forces cant see artillery behind a forest when you look at history. BUT you can see/hear it when it fires...thats why they used tracked artillery at least to quickly change position after firing. Hm i see the problem. Maybe a rule that you can fire on tanks (noise) everytime (or when they moved...) and on artillery after the fired. And interesting pointing out with units that dissapear. It's really complicated... Ok, artillery can always fire indirect. Seems to me a bit overpowered but have to say that i never tested it so dont give it much. Lets see how often diversion triggers. i wont touch your rules anymore, promised 
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| Sindor |
Be sure, that in 50% you miss (statistically; Murphy rules apply ) - therefore without spotter, the only effective indirect fire is fire onto a massed enemy formations 
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| PeterGol |
In my playing group we've tested it, and also think it's overpowered. In my opinion it will work fine the way you said in the post before, needing one friendly unit at range with LOS to fire indirectly. |
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| Sindor |
Ok, let's test it together - I expect cca 10% of cards and some rules will be changed after this tournament. But as you will see, many units out of sight in the rear hexes as the artillery have Field camouflage, therefore you cannot target them until having fired. Dispersion is very annoying disadvantage - once you fire and miss, you can be targeted by aircrafts and/or enemy artillery, with the deadly results - for no gain. |
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| Polish_Cavalryman |
let me know please if this indirect fire discussion has anything to do with the other games.
since the USSR has several indirect fire units but doesn't have a spotter to use... well... it seems like something I should look into. |
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| Westentaschenschlachti |
Hm....but when it hit - usually an important unit of the enemy is gone. Artillery is very strong in early scenarios because they have relativly a lot of dices vs armor in my opinion. And remember, you cant hide trucks or strike and fade spottervehicles properly anymore because they lie under fire everywhere. And where is the advantage of an vehicle artillery like the Wespe? Enemy artillery could hit you anywhere not important where you move. With the Wespe you sometimes can manage to escape enemy spotters for example... I'm really looking forward how dispersion works in our games, maybe sharpe fields a few in our Polandwar. Because not every army contains artillery or planes to get rid of the enemie's ones..... |
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| Sindor |
There will be no changes in rules or in cards during the tournament - development freeze.
However we can discuss it as long as we will not find a general agreement
PS: All units were balanced by following equation: "the unit price should be in long term equal to the average ammount of points destroyed(+1/2 of the damaged+1/3 of the disrupted) by this unit until being destroyed itself." Let's take the most common heavy artillery piece in WII:Schneider 155mm. Average lifespan - 3 rounds (usually a primary enemy target, low defense)
Indirect fire - 50% of hits (with no spotter; with spotter, add +6 pts to the price of the gun, but 100% hits)
Average damage - 4,5 hits on MR / Indirect Fire
Has to destroy more than 3 4-pt infantry units or a 13 pts of vehicles in the battle to "pay its costs".
Calculation: in its average 3 life rounds, a single 155mm howitzer without spotter usually fires 1st&2nd round indirectly, then directly. During its assaults, it damages 1x10pts vehicle, destroys 1 and disrupts 2 infantry units = 5+4+4 (rounded up) pts of kills = price of the gun.
And imagine we had to calculate and test similar averages for nearly all 300 units
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| Sharpe |
Beats the WoTC method of pulling a number out of a hat. I think we should the rules as written. Sindor knows what he's doing and I think this prevents confusion later on. |
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| Westentaschenschlachti |
HOOLY SH.....ehm....i mean....aaaaaaand? you think thats difficult or what?
 you have my respect
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| PeterGol |
I'm agree with you about playing with present rules, but disagree about some of the points in that equation... always considering my game experiences with this rules, that may differ to other ones, of course
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| Sindor |
If somebody will afterwards want to challenge me on the map he won/lost/want to play, I am here
For the moment, it seems that nearly everybody has underestimated the strenght of AA defense and artillery. But, in such small armies, one cannot have every unit he wants... |
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| Sindor |
PS: Recent development under way based on your suggestions - covering fire SA will be as following (of course not in HHR cup):
Covering fire:- This unit can make one extra attack during the assault phase with the effect of defensive fire against any unit in range. (i.e. one extra attack which can disrupt, but not destroy the unit, but you apply the results immediately). After all, LMG's are portable MG's so they should have a sort of "one-and-half attack" per assault phase. To be tested - may prove too strong (you fire, disrupt, and finish the enemy unit easily by second attack? How it is probable?). |
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| PeterGol |
Uff... yes, it seems to be too strong, specially at close range... better than the HMG at close range, and half cost. Maybe its cost should be checked.. that's my first impression, but will test it and give you feedback. |
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| Sindor |
NEWS
New items to be issued after testing: [counter] Smoke. Smoke grenade can be fired by any infantry or artillery unit at the beginning of the movement phase. It covers the unit hex in dense smoke for whole the turn. All units inside have standard cover. This hex blocks LOS. Only artillery can fire a smoke grenade on distance. [counter] Satchel Charge/Magnetic Mines – 2 pts; Infantry weapon upgrade. Close assault -1, but each hit counts twice. Units specialised against Vehicles cannot be armed with magnetic mines (type Bazooka). |
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| RAEVSKI |
I have an issue with the indirect rules for mortars, in our game he can target anywhere without line of sight or a spotter. so what is the point of spotters.
Also because the mortars are firing without seeing or an obsever seeing there ammo would run out extremely fast plastering seemingly random area (because the enemy haven't beeen seen) to get an effect. A mortor crew generally only have with them 30-50 rounds in the field unless they are in prepared positions where they can store more ammo safetly. Can this be explained. I didn't take a mortar in my scenario because the terrain is cluttered and I had no line of sight or an observer. Plz it is a comment not a complaint. |
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| Sharpe |
I would agree with this comment. It doesn't strike me a sparticularly historical. I can think of some ways to facilitate this but they would complicate the game. Blind firing when LOS crosses several hexes of blocking terrain shouldn't happen. |
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| RAEVSKI |
If the Authors of HHR didn't want a more complicated game they would have left the rules the way they are under WotC. What the Authors of HHR is an historical result, i don't think it is being achieved. |
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| Sharpe |
True, but at the same time you don't want to head into ASL territory or make it difficult to play without a referee. | ||||
| RAEVSKI |
side point- wasn't it based on ASL in the first place.
True otherwise |
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| Sharpe |
ASL and AAM don't seem to have any elements in common. AAM is more of a simplified FOW or some other miniature game. |
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| Sindor |
PeterGol wins and goes to semi-finals. His opponent will be The Mighty A, as he was first to overcome his opponent.
I will post semi-final maps soon. I strongly reccomend to all players to find common playing times - these games might have been finished in half an hour on internet, not in four weeks
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| PeterGol |
Hi people.
Hey Mighty, do you live in the states, don't you? It will be difficult to find an appropiate playing time for both. I promise to reply as soon as I can. Don't know which part of the states do you live, but I think there will be about 6 or 7 hours of difference between you and me (I live in Spain). Good luck
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| Sindor |
Semi-final maps posted
Roll 2d6 for the deployment, gentlemen. As before, winner choses side (Axis/Allies), loser choses battlefield (by 1d6, see the map room titles for details). Then winner again choses who will start to deploy ... |
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| PeterGol |
Ok, here we go!!
Roll for deployment Rolls: (2d6)
Re-Roll if needed Rolls: (2d6)
In case i lose the map will be --> Rolls: (1d6)
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| RAEVSKI |
Is the winner the person that holds the Obj at the end of turn 7 ? | ||||
| Polish_Cavalryman |
yes. You hold the objective by being on the objective or any adjacent hex. But the objective can be contested by your opponent on any adjacent hex. The game continues until turn 10 as long as the objective is contested by both sides at the end of the turn.
in our case we are both contesting the objective. |
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| Sindor |
Correct. |
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| RAEVSKI |
cool let finish it Pol. Cav. | ||||
| Polish_Cavalryman |
it is finished. good game. | ||||
| Polish_Cavalryman |
well... maybe we played mines wrong. If so then I quit and the opponent wins. See the post in other thread. | ||||
| Sindor |
Polish_Cavalryman won on points, see the war room for details.
Now we will wait on Sharpe/Westen duel results. Semi-final duels will not be played twice. There is not enough time before holidays to play two games in each pair.
If any map will be left unused, feel free to challenge any of your friends over it. |
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| The Mighty A |
Congrats on your win PeterGol. I live 6 hrs behind GMT so we will have to make the best of it.
Roll for deployment: Rolls: (2d6)
re-roll: Rolls: (2d6)
If I win, I take allies. If I lose, the map is: Rolls: (1d6)
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| PeterGol |
I am usually available from 8pm to 11pm... If I'm not wrong, this must be about 1pm to 4pm where you live. To make an exact idea of the time difference, I am posting right now at 12.25 am... and it's time to go bed because work waits tomorrow
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| Sindor |
As I have already explained, EVERY unit may guide on a limited basis an artillery attack (it is supposed they have some radio link - also not 100% historical) and even artillery itself may hear incoming units, see the dust rising etc. Aircrafts may also communicate the enemy positions. That's why you are allowed to attack indirectly without L.O.S. Using a Spotter eliminates enemy cover and Dispersion, so it is far more deadly than firing blind. It is impossible to squeeze what you say into a simple rules set ("you may fire indirectly when your enemy has not moved, at least one of your units has L.O.S. and you have at least one aircraft and ..."). When you want to play really "historical" game, do not play AAM. You cannot expect a historical gaming with units having Rear/Front defense and three ranges of dices. AAM is more like WWII Magic the Gathering. That's why HHR is trying to have more "historical feeling" than WotC version (at least we are not using howitzers against aircraft )
When me and my friends want to play something more technically sophisticated, we play Panzerwaffe - with ammo options, turning tank turrets, morale and weather mods ...
When you go through our "Singapore game", you will see that an Indirect mortar fire is rather a desperate action, ineffective waste of ammo (as you pointed out) useful only against a large army group which you simply cannot miss. |
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| RAEVSKI |
Has my opponent been decided yet? | ||||
| RAEVSKI |
[quote="Sindor
When you want to play really "historical" game, do not play AAM. You cannot expect a historical gaming with units having Rear/Front defense and three ranges of dices. AAM is more like WWII Magic the Gathering. .[/quote] I play Rapid fire for a more Historic feel you have to have historic style units. AAM is just a quick beer'n'pretzels game to me. |
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| Sindor |
Can you send me something more detailed about Rapid Fire? |
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| RAEVSKI |
no worries will do tomorrow. |
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| Sharpe |
I'm not sure whom I play next, but Sindor said to roll for map.
Rolls: (1d6)
extra, if needed Rolls: (1d6)
Please let me know what I do next. Also, Sindor, I'd like to see the new HHR cards if you could email them to me. Thank you. |
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| Sindor |
Well, you play with RAEVSKI.
I suggest to roll two dices on the map selection, as in the previous case. Reminder: Winner selects the map, looser chooses Axis/Allies, winner starts ... |
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| Sharpe |
Rolling two dice
Rolls: (2d6)
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| RAEVSKI |
rolls dice
Rolls: (2d6)
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| RAEVSKI |
roll for map
Rolls: (1d6)
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| Sindor |
Fine. Comrade Raevski selected RUS/GER map. Sharpe chooses the side. Raevski decides who will start the deployment. | ||||
| RAEVSKI |
if it is decided that I am Axis do you mind if I use a Romanian force? | ||||
| Sharpe |
Fine with me. I'll be the Russians if you would like to do that.
The only thing I want to avoid is using paratroopers. I think that would be silly historically and unfair on this map. Is that OK with you? |
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| RAEVSKI |
No paras is fine with me Plz if you don't mind don't use kv1 or 2 as the Romanians never encountered them until 42. The biggest tank for me is R2. | ||||
| Sharpe |
KVs will stay in the garage. | ||||
| RAEVSKI |
thanks.
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| Sindor |
I am still here, watching you
I do not have currently enough time to make and post final map. But it will be Operation Bagration 1944: Minsk RUS/GER on 150 pts. This map will be posted on Tuesday next week. Map limitations: Units from RUS theatre only (location: Belorussian SSR, see Wiki for historical details). No limits of aircrafts. Use of bombs & trenches allowed. Players may choose to play 1 simple encounter battle or two battles, both with Germans defending and Soviets attacking (then the attacker will have +25% points).
First player for the final game is The Mighty A. |
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| Sindor |
Based on the agreement with both players I have to announce that The Mighty A has resigned for the benefit of his opponent and I am proud to declare SHARPE the winner of the tournament.
He gains the title "HHR Commander 2008" together with SturmTiger model and its personalised card - both prizes will be sent on his home adress as soon as I will get it from him. |
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| carrion |
Pretty anti-climatic for a final, no offense to anyone. | ||||
| Sindor |
Yes indeed. But both players have agreed on this solution and I cannot force them to continue the game. |