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Asbestos

Club Med Theater Research: UK/US/Germany

UK looks easy, even Hood was there thanks to Force H and Mers-El-Kebir. Really what we're doing is looking for ships that weren't in the Med (Royal Oak wasn't, but her sisters were). Repulse wasn't as far as I can tell, but Renown was. If this game brings in the Spanish Civil War at any point then the list really is pretty much everything.

UK ships that weren't in the Med:
Renown class (1 of 2)
Revenge class (2 of 5)

US ships that weren't in the Med (please, only cruiser and destroyer classes)

Atlanta class cruisers (all)


German units that were in the Med.
S-boats
Bf 109s
Ju 87s
Ju 88s
ZG3
U-boats (need help with classes deployed there)
NeuralDream

The general rule is:

- Did this specific battleship, this specific carrier, this specific cruiser, this type of aircraft, this class of subs, this class of destroyers, this type of torpedo boats operate at any point during the war in my theatre of operations?

If the answer is yes, then you can have it in your "units allowed" list and you can use as many of this as the class limit (or whatever houserule you agree with your opponent).
Asbestos

NeuralDream wrote:
The general rule is:

- Did this specific battleship, this specific carrier, this specific cruiser, this type of aircraft, this class of subs, this class of destroyers, this type of torpedo boats operate at any point during the war in my theatre of operations?

If the answer is yes, then you can have it in your "units allowed" list and you can use as many of this as the class limit (or whatever houserule you agree with your opponent).

Wait so... can people use a single Repulse (as opposed to two) in Club Med? Can they use both since Renown showed up?

Can they use Royal Oaks even though Royal Oak specifically didn't show up? (But Royal Sovereign, Ramillies and.. that other one Resolution(?) did)
NeuralDream

It has to be the specific WAS battleship that operated to allow its whole class. Royal Sovereign is not in WAS except if you use Forumini Navies.

If Rodney operated in Med, you get as many Rodney as the class limit.
If Rodney didn't but Nelson did, you get none, because Nelson is not a WAS unit.

If you want to do the hard work and allow the exact number of ships per class that operated in the med (rather than the max), you can do that too.
SWO_Daddy

Asbestos, this is what I have on the German units...

ZG3 - Destroyer - The Greek destroyer Vasilefs Georgios was captured in damaged condition after the fall of Greece, then repaired in Greece with assistance from the Germaniawerft and commissioned by the Kriegsmarine as the ZG3 or the Hermes. She was the only major Kriegsmarine surface ship in the Mediterranean Sea during World War II, and she was involved in escorting convoys to North Africa and the Aegean islands. The Hermes sank the Royal Navy's submarine HMS Splendid off Capri, Italy, on 21 April 1943. Then, she was damaged by air attacks off Tunisia. The Hermes had to be scuttled in La Goulette, Tunis on 7 May 1943.

U-47 - Submarine - Type VIIB U-boat, which operated in the Med.  http://www.uboat.net/ops/med-all.htm

U-552 - Submarine - Type VIIC U-boat, which operated in the Med.  http://www.uboat.net/ops/med-all.htm

S-Boat - Torpedo Boat - Began operations in the Med in 1941: http://s-boot.net/sboats-km-mediterranean41-42.html

FW200 Kondor - Bomber - Based in Greece in 1941 and used in attempted bombing of shipping in the Suez.  One example shot down over Port Said 5 Sept 1941.  http://books.google.com/books?id=...AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false - Involved in the bombing of Casablanca on 1 Jan 1943. http://www.airpages.ru/eng/lw/fw200.shtml

Ju87B Stuka - Dive Bomber - Based in a number of locations in the Med: http://books.google.com/books?id=...AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

BF-109 - Fighter - Based in North Africa, Italy and Greece as part of Luftflotte 2:  http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/O...ders-of-Battle-September-1942.htm

Ju88A-4 - Patrol Bomber - Based in North Africa, Italy and Greece as part of Luftflotte 2:  http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/O...ders-of-Battle-September-1942.htm

On the US/UK units, are we including Operation Torch (which occured on both sides of the Straits of Gibraltar) or sticking strictly to Gibraltar to Suez units?
SWO_Daddy

The Royal Sovereign is in War at Sea...as Arkangelisk.
NeuralDream

As Club Atlantic seems certain to join the clubhouse, please limit Club Med from Gibraltar to Suez.

SWO_Daddy wrote:
The Royal Sovereign is in War at Sea...as Arkangelisk.

Laughing Ok, technically you are right. Do whatever you want with this Laughing.
Asbestos

The need for a specific ship, when say, the majority of (or a number of) a class was in the Med feels like an artificial constraint.

For the US it ends up giving the bizarre impression that there were no cruisers/destroyers with just South Dakota battleships running amok.
NeuralDream

True, but that's how WAS historical rules play to avoid complicating things. If you have a Warspite, you can have a whole bunch of range-6 superhero WWI battleships. If you don't have it, you don't have any of the class.

You can always include FN or fantasy units. Most clubs seem to allow them anyway.
P71

FN units aren't allowed in the League though, so Club Med's fleets (especially the RN) will be severely restricted.
Asbestos

P71 wrote:
FN units aren't allowed in the League though, so Club Med's fleets (especially the RN) will be severely restricted.


Pretty sure they are if the opponent agrees. Otherwise club Dutch, for instance, would be mega-screwed.

Edit: Crap, just realized that unless we get Upholder in Set VI the Brits aren't going to have any subs in the Med (which, given the history, is pretty comical)
Bull Halsey

to be fair, give club Med the Truc until the upholder comes into play. it wiuld balance the subwarfare
NeuralDream

P311 (same subclass as Truc) operated in Malta. You can use Truculents just fine. It's only for carriers, cruisers and battleships that you have to look at the specific ship's service history. For the rest, including subs, you only look at the class.
P71

Asbestos wrote:
P71 wrote:
FN units aren't allowed in the League though, so Club Med's fleets (especially the RN) will be severely restricted.


Pretty sure they are if the opponent agrees. Otherwise club Dutch, for instance, would be mega-screwed.

Edit: Crap, just realized that unless we get Upholder in Set VI the Brits aren't going to have any subs in the Med (which, given the history, is pretty comical)


That's one of the issues with this place. It's hard to differentiate between Club matches and League matches. You and your opponent can do whatever you want in a Club match including FN cards, Convoys, etc. In the actual League though (which has been proposed to be a 100-day tournament), it's straight-up 3-objective matches only with no FN cards allowed. At least, that's what the rules are now.
Asbestos

NeuralDream wrote:
P311 (same subclass as Truc) operated in Malta. You can use Truculents just fine. It's only for carriers, cruisers and battleships that you have to look at the specific ship's service history. For the rest, including subs, you only look at the class.

Thank goodness.
Asbestos

Anyone have a list of US Destroyer classes that were in the Med?

None of our named US cruisers were in there right? I think Mass is the only named American ship we have that went there.
P71

Don't forget about classes that were Lend-Leased. Even if it served with the Brits, a DD-class will open you up to all of the sisters.
torpman

P71 wrote:
Don't forget about classes that were Lend-Leased. Even if it served with the Brits, a DD-class will open you up to all of the sisters.

Like what. No 4 pipers served here. (Or any CVEs as far as I know.)
SWO_Daddy

Cleveland was present for the Torch landings.  Not sure if she served in later operations.
P71

torpman wrote:
P71 wrote:
Don't forget about classes that were Lend-Leased. Even if it served with the Brits, a DD-class will open you up to all of the sisters.

Like what. No 4 pipers served here. (Or any CVEs as far as I know.)


CVE is a Capital ship, so unless St. Lo or Fencer served, ClubMed is SOL. DD's you just need the class. So if a J/K/N class served, they would get access to Javelin, Nizam, and Van Galen, even if none of those 3 actual ships were here. That only applies to DD's and SS's though, not Capital ships.
Brigman

HMS Fencer provided air support for Gibraltar route convoys in 1943, and passed through Gilbraltar on her way to Liverpool whilst carrying Hellcats.  She provided escort for convoys from the Bay of Biscay through Gibraltar as well.  So for Club Med service, she is good to go.

St. Lo, formerly the USS Midway, sadly, served in the Pacific and Indonesian theater only, as far as I've been able to research.
SWO_Daddy

I'd only want to use Fencer anyway! Smile
Brigman

Good point. Smile

More research... USS Baltimore did serve in the Med... but not until 1952.  I think that rules her out, guys, sorry.  Sad
SWO_Daddy

Damnit man! Smile

Cleveland isn't a bad option really...one of the better USN cruisers in the game.
Brigman

USS Quincy (CA-71) however DID serve in the Med. She conducted shore bombardment practice at Camarota in the Gulf of Policastro. She then steamed to Malta via the Straits of Messina and participated in training exercises at Malta and Camarota, Italy, and provided fire support during other Malta operations.
Brigman

Back to the bad news... USS Houston (CA-30) seems to be a Pacific theater ship from my research... she served in the Java sea as well...

USS San Francisco (CA-38) also never served in the Med as far as I have found, serving mostly in the SoPac area...

Same for USS Salt Lake City (CA-25).
Brigman

USS Boise (CL-47) did serve in the Med!  She steamed there in 1943, where she acted as a cover and fire support ship during the landing on Sicily. In September, she took part in the Italian mainland landings at Taranto and Salerno.
Brigman

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled bad news...

USS San Diego (CL-53), Montpelier (CL-57), and USS Richmond (CL-9) were "Pacific" ships, and I can't find any record of them operating in the Med.  Sad

It looks like you guys get Cleveland, Quincy and Boise up to class limits, though.  Smile
Brigman

Submarines: in the summer of 1942, six brand new Gatos were assigned to Submarine Squadron 50 and sent to Rosneath, Scotland to patrol the Bay of Biscay and to assist in the Operation Torch landings in North Africa.

Think that opens up USS Barb (SS-220), which is Gato-class, for you guys.  Smile
Brigman

The Battle of Calabria in 1940 included the following units, allowing them for your theater:

UNITED KINGDOM

HMS Warspite

HMS Malaya (QE class, same as Warspite)

HMS Royal Sovereign (aka Arkhangelsk)

HMAS Sydney

HMS Eagle (carrier coming out in Set VI)

HMS Nubian (Tribal-class, allowing the Tribal-class DD, including HMAS Arunta, HMCS Haida, HMS Cossack).

HMS Mohawk (Tribal-class)

HMS Hero, HMS Hereward, HMS Hyperion, HMS Hasty,  (H-class)

HMS Decoy, HMS Dainty, HMS Defender (D-class)

HMAS Stuart (Scott-class DDL)

HMS Ijex (I-class)

HMS Janus, HMS Juno (J-class, allowing you guys HMS Javelin)

HMAS Vampire, HMAS Voyager (V-class)
Brigman

BATTLE OF TARANTO 1940

The following UK units participated, which would allow them in your theater:

HMS Glorious

HMS Eagle

HMS Illustrious

Swordfish and Sunderlands were definitely used down there.

HMAS Sydney

HMS Ajax

HMS Orion (not in game yet)

HMS Nubian and HMS Mohawk (Tribal-class)
Brigman

BATTLE OF CAPE MATAPAN 1941:

The UK order of battle included:

HMS Barham, HMS Valiant, HMS Warspite (QE class)

HMS Formidable (Illustrious-class)

9 destroyers: HMS Greyhound, Griffin, Jervis, Janus, Mohawk, Nubian, Hotspur and Havock, and HMAS Stuart

4 light cruisers: HMS Ajax, Gloucester and Orion, and HMAS Perth

   * 3 destroyers: HMS Hasty, Hereward and Ilex

# AG 9 convoy (from Alexandria to Greece)

   * 2 light cruisers: HMS Calcutta and Carlisle
   * 3 destroyers: HMS Defender and Jaguar, and HMAS Vampire

# GA 8 convoy (from Greece to Alexandria)

   * 1 anti aircraft cruiser: HMS Bonaventure (Dido-class, same as Euryalus)
   * 2 destroyers: HMS Decoy and Juno
   * 1 merchant ship: Thermopylæ (Norwegian)
Brigman

The Brits certainly used Bristol Beaufighters in the Med, so they should be good to go.  I'd imagine most available (by year) British air was used in the theater in any case.
Brigman

HMS Ark Royal served in the Med.

HMS Sheffield (coming in Set VI) also served in the Med.

HMS Hood served in theater in 1940, before Bismark ruined her day.
SWO_Daddy

USS Nevada served in the Med (Operation Dragoon)

USS Wasp served in the Med (Operation Calendar and Operation Bowery)
SWO_Daddy

Euryalus (Operation Vigerious)

Nizam (Operation Vigerious)

Javelin (Operation Vigerious)

Flower class (Operation Vigerious)...oh my...we can use Sackville!
SWO_Daddy

Proteus and Thasher (T-class) in Operation Vigorous...Truclent in the house!
SWO_Daddy

ORP Błyskawica - with the Royal Navy on Convoy duty in Med.
P71

SWO_Daddy wrote:
USS Nevada served in the Med (Operation Dragoon)

USS Wasp served in the Med (Operation Calendar and Operation Bowery)


Not only was Wasp in the Med, she was the first US carrier to have a UK plane land on her, and later launch as well. She also ferried a Spitfire squadron to Malta, one of whom had to land back down on her, the first carrier-landing for a Spitfire! Cool stuff!
SWO_Daddy

HMS Rodney - Operation Pedestal

HMS Victorious - Operation Pedestal
SWO_Daddy

Prince of Wales, Rodney, Kenya, Edinburgh, Sheffield and Euryalus - Operation Halberd
SWO_Daddy

HMS King George V - Operations Husky

USS Shubrick (Gleaves Class - USS Butler) - Operation Husky
Brigman

USS Lansdale (DD-426) was torpedoed by Junkers on her way to North Africa on convoy escort duty.  Lansdale was Benson-class, which allows USS Laffey (DD-459), also Benson-class.
Brigman

USS Leary (DD-158) served in the Med, and is Wickes-class.  This will allow the upcoming USS Edsall in Set VI.
P71

Order of Battle for every action in the Med:

http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob.../index_OOB_WWII_Mediterranean.htm
NeuralDream

When you finish with these, add mine and we are done with ClubMed. I tried to follow your format.

Italy
All Italian units in WAS are eligible. They were all based or operated in the Med.

Ambra - 10 in class
Antilope - 50 in class  
Aquila - 1 in class [planned/fantasy unit]
Ascari - 17 in class
Bolzano - 1 in class
C.202 Folgore
Caio Duilio - 2 in class
Duca d'Aosta + Eugenio di Savoia - 4 in Montecuccoli class
Giulio Cesare - 2 in class
Zara + Gorizia - 4 in Zara class
Giuseppe Garibaldi - 2 in class
Ju-87 R2 Picchiatelli
Leonardo da Vinci - 6 in class
Vittorio Veneto + Littorio + Roma (fantasy?) - 4 in Vittorio Veneto class
Luca Tarigo + Ugolino Vivaldi - 12 in Navigatori class
Motor Torpedo Boat - 24 in MAS type
Pegaso - 4 in Orione class
Re. 2001 CB
San Giorgio - 2 in class
Scipione Africano - 3 in class
SM.79 Sparviero
Trento - 2 in class
Z.506B Airone

Greece
All Greek units operated in the Med.

Georgios Averoff - 1 in class. Med and Indian ocean.
Vasilissa Olga - 2 in class. Med only.
Proteus - 4 in class. Med only.

France

Algérie - 1 in class. In Toulon.
Béarn - 1 in class. Béarn was in Toulon.
Casabianca - 31 in Redoubtable class. Toulon, Algiers etc.
D.520
Dunkerque - 2 in class. In Toulon.
Gloire - 6 in La Galissonnière class. Gloire was in Algiers and Toulon.
Le Terrible - 6 in Fantasque class. Took part in Ajaccio landings etc.
Milan - 6 in Aigle class. Some in the class were stationed in Toulon.
Provence - 3 in class. In Toulon
Richelieu - 2 in class. In Toulon while in Allied service.
Suffren - 4 in class. Suffren operated in the Dodecanese, Alexandria etc.
V-156F Vindicator
not allowed: Lamotte-Picquet. Was sent to the Far East long before the war started.
not allowed: Jean Bart. Never sailed through the Gibraltar straits.

Australia

HMAS Sydney - 3 in class. Fought against Italians in the Med.
HMAS Nizam - 5 in class. Operated off Crete.
not allowed: HMAS Canberra. Not in the Med
not allowed: HMAS Australia. Not in the Med
not allowed: HMAS Arunta. None of the three Australian Tribals operated in the Med.

NZ
HMNZS Leander - 2 in class. 1941 Syria-Lebanon Campaign.

Canada
HMCS St. Laurent - 5 Canadian in class. HMCS Restigouche in Med in 1943
HMCS Sackville - 79 Canadian in class. HMCS Louisburg was sunk in the Med in 1943
not allowed: HMCS Haida. No Canadian Tribal served in the Med
not allowed: HMCS Uganda. Served in the Med only as HMS, but not after it was transfered to the Canadians
P71

NeuralDream wrote:

All Italian units are eligible. They could be based only in the Med.


Um, not true ND. The Italian Regia Marina had an entire fleet in the Red Sea, the Red Sea Flotilla, that engaged the British Eastern Fleet and included 3 of the 4 Ramb Auxiliary Cruisers. There's quite a lot of good small actions in this theatre that would be supported by Club Ceylon/Indian Ocean/RAAFFF.
NeuralDream

You are absolutely right, but all units in the list were also in the Med. I'll correct my text.
P71

NeuralDream wrote:
You are absolutely right, but all units in the list were also in the Med. I'll correct my text.


That is true, but we have to be really careful about blanket statements. France, for example, did a lot of action at sea before their initial defeat. Dunkerque and Strausburg were with the RN chasing the Bismarck, Lamotte-Picquet defeated Thailand, Suffren and Richelieu both served in the Pacific, etc, etc.

Italy did have some action out of the Med, especially in the Indian Ocean. Some of those ships will even be unique to the Theatre. Italy even had a Naval base in China and sent Auxiliary cruisers to the Pacific.
SWO_Daddy

That's a good link from P71.  However, don't forget Operations Husky, Dragoon, etc.  Large numbers of warships supported those landings.
SWO_Daddy

Did some Soviet Black Sea Fleet research...

Battleships

Sovetsky Soyuz Class - Sovetskaya Ukraina (Russian: Советская Украина—Soviet Ukraine) was laid down 31 October 1938 at Shipyard Nr. 198 (Marti South) in Nikolayev. When the war began she was 17.98% complete with 13,001 metric tons (12,796 long tons) assembled on the slipway. Some effort was made to launch the hull, but little work had been done to dredge the river at the foot of the slipway and she was captured on 18 August 1941, although retreating Soviet troops slightly damaged her hull. The Germans dismantled 200 feet (61 m) of her bow and 100 feet (30 m) of her stern for use in fortifications. They were forced to evacuate Nikolayev on 17 March 1944 and demolished the supporting blocks under her port side before they left which gave her a list between 5 and 10 degrees and made her a total loss. She was ordered scrapped on 27 March 1947.

Gangut / Oktyabrskaya Revolyutsiya class - Parizhskaya Kommuna was in Sevastopol and remained until 30 October 1941 when she was evacuated to Novorossiysk after the Germans had breached Soviet defensive lines near the Perekop Isthmus. The ship fired her first shots of the war on 28–29 November when she bombarded German and Romanian troops south of Sevastopol. Parizhskaya Kommuna made one evacuation run to Sevastopol on 29 December, bombarding German troops on her arrival, but spend most of her time supporting troops during the Kerch Offensive in January–March 1942. She fired her last shots of the war at targets near Feodosiya during the nights of 20–22 March 1942 before returning to Poti to have her worn-out 12-inch guns relined. By the time this was finished the Soviets were unwilling to expose such a prominent ship to German air attacks, which had already sunk a number of cruisers and destroyers. She returned to her original name on 31 May 1943, but remained in Poti until late 1944 when she led the surviving major units of the Black Sea Fleet back to Sevastopol on 5 November. British Type 290 and 291 air-warning radars were fitted during the war. Sevastopol was awarded the Order of the Red Banner on 8 July 1945.

Kronshtadt class - Sevastopol (Russian: Севастополь) was built by Shipyard No. 200, 61 Communards in Nikolayev. She was laid down on 5 November 1939 and estimated as 11.6% complete on 22 June 1941. She was captured by the Germans when they occupied Nikolayev in late 1941, but the Germans did little with her other than to use some of her material for defensive positions and some was apparently shipped to Germany. Before the Germans evacuated the city they damaged her building slip and hull with explosives and made her a constructive total loss. She was ordered scrapped on 24 March 1947 and her dismantling began shortly afterwards. It was completed in 1948.
-----------------------------------------

Other than the use of the Fantasy Soyuz (I think its eligible), the BBs would have to be FN cards or we cross our fingers for a future set.
SWO_Daddy

Cruisers

Komintern Class - Komintern, in company with the cruisers Krasny Kavkaz, Chervona Ukraina and a number of destroyers, laid down a defensive mine barrage protecting the Black Sea Fleet base at Sevastopol on 22 June. Komintern, along with the destroyers Nezamozhinsk and Shaumyan, was assigned to cooperate with the Separate Coastal Army on 8 August 1941 and spent much of the next month bombarding Romanian positions and coast defenses. During the Siege of Odessa she escorted a number of convoys to and from the besieged city. During the Crimean Campaign Komintern delivered supplies to the 44th Army at Feodosiya on 1 January 1942 and ferried troops and supplies to Sevastopol for the next several months. She was badly damaged by a German air attack on 11 March, but was able to continue under her own power. She was damaged again in Novorossiysk by I. Gruppe, Kampfgeschwader 76 on 2 July 1942 and moved to Poti shortly afterwards. She was severely damaged again by another German air attack on 16 July at Poti that she was deemed non-repairable. She was disarmed in August—September 1942, her guns forming coast defense batteries at Tuapse, and hulked. At some point before October 1942 she was towed to the mouth of the Khobi river, just north of Poti, and sunk as a breakwater.

Svetlana Class in the Black Sea Fleet
- Krasnyi Krym (added)
- Chervona Ukraina, Червона Украина Sunk by German air raid 12.11.1941. Salvaged in 1947, used as target until 1952
- Krasny Kavkaz, Красный Кавказ Sunk as target 1952, scrapped 1958

Kirov Class - Voroshilov: On 23 June 1941, Voroshilov covered Soviet destroyers bombarding Constanţa, but the destroyer leader Moskva was sunk by a mine and Kharkov was damaged by return fire. She bombarded Axis positions near Odessa in mid-September, but was transferred to Novorossiysk shortly afterwards. On 2 November, she was hit twice in harbor by Junkers Ju 88 bombers of KG 51; one hit started a fire in #3 magazine that was extinguished by water flooding in from the second hit. She had to be towed to Poti for repairs, which lasted until February 1942. She shelled Axis positions near Feodosiya on 2 April 1942, but was damaged by some near misses on 10 April and had to return to Batumi for repairs. In May she supported Soviet troops around Kerch and the Taman Peninsula while helping to transfer the 9th Naval Infantry Brigade from Batumi to Sevastopol. On 29 November 1942, she was damaged by nearby mine explosions while bombarding Feodonisi, but managed to return to Poti under her own power. Just after her repairs were completed she assisted Soviet forces landing behind German lines at the so-called "Malaya Zemlya" at the end of January 1943. The loss of three destroyers to German aircraft attempting to interdict the German evacuation of the Taman Bridgehead on 6 October 1943 caused Stalin to forbid the deployment of large naval units without his express permission and this meant the end of Voroshilov's active participation in the war.

Maxim Gorky Class - Molotov was commissioned just before the German invasion and spent most of 1941 moving from port to port to take advantage of her air warning radar, the first fitted in the Soviet Navy. She bombarded Axis positions near Feodosiya in early November and was sent to reinforce Sevastopol with elements of the 386th Rifle Division from Poti. Damaged by a number of shell hits while off-loading troops on 29 December, she was still able to take 600 wounded when she departed. She reprised her role as a transport during the first week of January. Her bow was damaged during a heavy storm in Tuapse when it was thrown against the jetty on 21–22 January 1942. She spent most of the next month under repair, although her bow could not be straightened which reduced her speed by several knots. After making a number of bombardment sorties in support of Soviet troops on the Kerch Peninsula, she returned to Poti for more permanent repairs on 20 March. In June she made a number of transport runs in support of the garrison of Sevastopol. On 2 August her stern was blown off by torpedo bombers acting in concert with Italian MAS torpedo boats. The damage reduced her speed to 10 knots (19 km/h; 12 mph) and she had to be steered by her engines. She was under repair at Poti until 31 July 1943, using the stern of the incomplete Chapayev-class cruiser Frunze, the rudder of the incomplete cruiser Zheleznyakov, the steering gear from the Kaganovich and the steering sensor from the submarine L-25. She saw no action after completing her repairs due to Stalin's order.

Chapayev class - Kuybyshev (Куйбышев) and Frunze (Фрунзе) launched in 1941.  Neither was completed during the war.

--------------------------------------------
No luck here.  Though, a number of these are available as FN cards.  Set VI maybe?
SWO_Daddy

Destroyers

Derzky class - Frunze: Scuttled to avoid capture in 1919 and raised and repaired by the Soviet Navy. Sunk by Stuka dive bombers on 21 September 1941.

Fidonisy or Kerch class in the Black Sea
- Kaliakria - renamed Dzerzhinski 27 August 1916 Scuttled in 1918, raised and repaired by the Soviet Navy 1925, Sunk 13 May 1942
- Korfu - renamed Zhelezniakov 1924 Broken up 1956
- Levkas - renamed Shaumyan 1924 lent to the Bulgarian Navy after World war II, Broken up 1950s
- Zante renamed Nyezamozhnik 1917 Sunk 10 April 1942

Leningrad class - Moskva and Kharkov
 Moskva was commissioned in 1938 and twice made port visits in Turkey before Operation Barbarossa began on 22 June 1941. Both ships bombarded the Romania port of Constanţa with a total of 350 rounds on 26 June, but Moskva either struck a mine or was torpedoed in a case of mistaken identity by the Soviet submarine Shch-206[20] which also attacked, but missed, Kharkov which had been damaged by near-misses from 28 cm (11 in) shells from the German coast defense battery Tirpitz and bombs from Romanian aircraft. Shch-206 was sunk in retaliation by destroyers summoned to escort Kharkov back to Sevastopol.
 Kharkov was repaired by 18 July and covered the retreat of Soviet Danube Flotilla to Odessa during the next several days. She bombarded Axis positions a number of times during the Siege of Odessa as well as escorting the evacuation convoys from Odessa to Sevastopol in October. During the Siege of Sevastopol she provided gunfire support and evacuated cut-off troops from elsewhere in the Crimea into Sevastopol and brought in reinforcements from Caucasian ports. She helped to transport the 388th Rifle Division from Novorossisk and Tuapse to Sevastopol between 7–13 December, the 79th Naval Rifle Brigade on 19–20 December and the 354th Rifle Division between 21–22 December, bombarding German positions in the interim. Between February and July 1942 she bombarded German troops on multiple times and brought in reinforcements and supplies for Sevastopol, evacuating wounded and refugees as she returned to port. She bombarded Axis positions near Feodosiya on 2–3 August and provided fire support for the defenders of Novorossiysk on 1–4 September. Between 8–11 September she ferried the 137th and 145th Rifle Regiments along with the 3rd Naval Rifle Brigade from Poti to Tuapse and Gelendzhik and a month later she transported 12,600 men of the 8th, 9th and 10th Guards Infantry Brigades from Poti to Tuapse to reinforce the defenses there between 20 and 23 October. On 29 November 1942 she escorted the cruiser Voroshilov on a mission to bombard Axis positions on Feodonisi and bombarded Yalta during the night of 19–20 December. On the night of 4 February 1943 the Soviets made a series of amphibious landings to the west of Novorossiysk, behind German lines. Kharkov, two cruisers, and two other destroyers provided fire support for the main landing, but the Soviet troops there were wiped out by 6 February, although one secondary landing was successful. She bombarded German positions near Novorossiysk again on the night of 21–22 February. Anapa was bombarded on the night of 13–14 May and Feodosiya on 22–23 May. During the night of 5–6 October 1943 Kharkov and the destroyers Besposhchadny and Sposobny bombarded Yalta, Alushta and Feodosiya and were spotted on their return voyage and attacked by Stukas of III./StG  Kharkov was damaged by their first attack and had to be towed by Sposobny. The second attack damaged all three ships and Sposobny took Besposhchadny under tow as well. The next attack sank both Kharkov and Besposhchadny. Sposobny was sunk by the fourth wave while trying to rescue survivors. This incident prompted Stalin to issue an order forbidding the use of ships destroyer-sized and larger without his express permission.

Tashkent Class - Tashkent ( Ташкент ) was completed May 1939 and was accepted in 1939 by the future Admiral of the Black Sea Fleet Lev Vladimirsky. The ship was delivered without armament reaching 43 knots on trials. She was initially armed with three single 130mm guns until her main gun turrets were delivered in 1941. She was painted a cobalt blue color and was nicknamed the "blue cruiser" by Russian sailors. She served with the Black Sea Fleet and fought during the Siege of Sevastopol making 40 supply trips through the German Blockade. On 28 June 1942 she was bombed by Stukas and managed to reach Novorosiysk but foundered in the port on 2 July 1942. Her gun turrets were salvaged for use in the destroyer Ognevoi.

Project 48 Ships - Ten ships were ordered from Soviet yards in 1939 as the Project 48 destroyer leaders. This design had minor modifications from Tashkent to suit Soviet shipbuilding practice. Four ships were laid down, all of them for the Black Sea Fleet:
- Kiev - built by Marti Yard, Nikolayev, launched December 1940, evacuated to Poti (49.8 % complete), but not completed after the war, the hull was used as a target ship in the 1950's
- Yerevan - built by Marti Yard Nikolayev, launched June 1941, evacuated to Poti (25.4 % complete),but not completed after the war, the hull was used as a target ship in the 1950's
- Perekop - built in Nikolayev not launched - wreck scrapped by the Germans
- Ochakov - built in Nikolayev not launched - wreck scrapped by the Germans A further six ships (1 Black Sea, 3 Baltic and 2 Arctic) were ordered but not laid down by 1941.

Type 7 or Gnevny class (Grozny) in the Black Sea Fleet
- Bodry - Бодрый (Brisk) scrapped 1950s
- Bystry - Быстрый (Rapid) sunk 1 July 1941 by magnetic mine
- Bezuprechny - Безупречный (Irreproachable) sunk 26 June 1942
- Bditelny - Бдительный (Watchful) sunk 2 July 1942
- Boiky - Бойкий (Spry / bold) scrapped 1958,
- Bezposhchadny - Беспощадный (Merciless) sunk 6 October 1943, bombing by Stukas

Similar Type 7U class in the Black Sea Fleet
- Smyshlyonyi Смышлёный (Clever) Supported defenders of Odessa and Sevastopol in 1941-42. Badly damaged in Soviet minefield on 5 March 1942 and sank three days later leaving only two survivors.
- Soobrazitel'ny Сообразительный (Shrewd) Active throughout 1941-45, including patrols duties for the Yalta Conference. Converted to Project 32 rescue ship 1951-58 under names SDK-11 and SS-16. Became target ship TsL-3 in September 1963. Sold for scrapping 19 March 1966 after plans for her use as a museum ship fell through.
- Sposobnyi Способный (Capable) Defense of Odessa and Sevastopol 1941-42. Escort duties from Tuapse during 1943 following extensive repairs to mine and gunfire damage off Novorossiysk and Feodossiya. Bombed and sunk alongside fellow destroyers Kharkov and Besposhchadnyi on 6 October 1943.
- Sovershennyi Совершенный (Absolute) Mined during trials and placed in dry dock in October 1941. Subsequently bombed in dry dock, delaying repairs until 1942. Sunk at Sevastopol by German artillery fire 13 June 1942. Raised and scrapped October 1945.
- Svobodnyi Свободный (Free) Evacuated to Sevastopol during August 1941, then working up period. Hit by eight bombs during a supply run to the besieged port on 9–10 June 1942. 67 dead. Raised and broken up in 1953.

-------------------------------------------
Hey!  We can use the Gromky!  Seriously, there is a good chance we'll see another DD class in Set VI, and a number of these are available as FN cards.
SWO_Daddy

Submarines

I didn't get a chance to do much research there, but I can confirm the S-series operated in the Black Sea

S-Series Submarines: These series were produced for all four fleets, with boats for Baltic, Northern, and Pacific Fleets being built in Leningrad, Black Sea Fleet boats in Nikolayev, and some boats for Baltic and North in Gorky.
SWO_Daddy

Aircraft

Didn't find much definative in an internet search other than these two snippets:

The lend lease P-40 was used by the 7th IAP, Black Sea Fleet.

The 23rd Attack Air Regiment of the AF of the Black Sea Fleet used the Il-2 Sturmovik.

-------------------------------------
I think its fair to assume P-40s and IL-2s.  Given the number of other Lend Lease aircraft sent to Russia, its possible others are out there, but I haven't seen anything I'd call "proof" they operated in the Black Sea so far.  Again, my search was not very exhaustive.
P71

Wow. P-40, IL-2, S-37, and Gromkiy. That sucks. Sad

The fleet picks up with FN cards though.
SWO_Daddy

I'd say at this point, the Black Sea offers some fun, "what if" Club games, but for League games Club Med will need to stick to its existing bread-and-butter fleets.

Maybe set VI will offer some relief.
P71

Why not pull a page out of CFS's manual and let the Russians buddy-up with another nation? Maybe Greece?

Giorgius Averoff
Vasilissa Olga
Gromkiy
Proteus
S-37
P-40
IL-2

That's not a half-bad small fleet selection. Throw in an SS and you might actually have a shot.
NeuralDream

P71 wrote:

Georgios Averof
Vasilissa Olga
Gromkiy
Proteus
S-37
P-40
IL-2

I think it's also Krasnyi Krym (herself and two sisters were in Odessa).
Asbestos

P71 wrote:
Why not pull a page out of CFS's manual and let the Russians buddy-up with another nation? Maybe Greece?

Giorgius Averoff
Vasilissa Olga
Gromkiy
Proteus
S-37
P-40
IL-2

That's not a half-bad small fleet selection. Throw in an SS and you might actually have a shot.

Hey man, we try to do things semi-historical here.

Greece already buddies up with the UK anyway. It actually works pretty well.

And yes, Krym is available to the Black sub-Sea (clearly the Black Sea is subordinate to the Mediterranean)

SWO_Daddy: Since you seem to be pretty on top of things, would you like to compile a list of all the WotC ships that Club Med can have?
SWO_Daddy

I can do that.  Will spend a little time on it this weekend.
P71

Asbestos wrote:
P71 wrote:
Why not pull a page out of CFS's manual and let the Russians buddy-up with another nation? Maybe Greece?

Giorgius Averoff
Vasilissa Olga
Gromkiy
Proteus
S-37
P-40
IL-2

That's not a half-bad small fleet selection. Throw in an SS and you might actually have a shot.

Hey man, we try to do things semi-historical here.

Greece already buddies up with the UK anyway. It actually works pretty well.

And yes, Krym is available to the Black sub-Sea (clearly the Black Sea is subordinate to the Mediterranean)

SWO_Daddy: Since you seem to be pretty on top of things, would you like to compile a list of all the WotC ships that Club Med can have?


CFS has Russia & Poland working together, so don't preach about "historical".  Rolling Eyes It was just a suggestion.
sublime828

P71 wrote:
Asbestos wrote:
P71 wrote:
Why not pull a page out of CFS's manual and let the Russians buddy-up with another nation? Maybe Greece?

Giorgius Averoff
Vasilissa Olga
Gromkiy
Proteus
S-37
P-40
IL-2

That's not a half-bad small fleet selection. Throw in an SS and you might actually have a shot.

Hey man, we try to do things semi-historical here.

Greece already buddies up with the UK anyway. It actually works pretty well.

And yes, Krym is available to the Black sub-Sea (clearly the Black Sea is subordinate to the Mediterranean)

SWO_Daddy: Since you seem to be pretty on top of things, would you like to compile a list of all the WotC ships that Club Med can have?


CFS has Russia & Poland working together, so don't preach about "historical".  Rolling Eyes It was just a suggestion.


Don't bang on us too much brother Very Happy  I don't know if we are going to be able to keep that arrangement after restructuring.  Our original intention with the sov/pol conglomeration was to help the soviets be a bit more competitive and to get the poles into the action.  I'll have to see what ND thinks of us leaving our sov/pol option open after the restructure.  Just have to see what happens. Later!
P71

I'm not banging on 'ya! I happen to really, really like your Club's Russian build. I think it gives the Red Fleet a full complement of units and allows from some interesting variations, even if it's not historical. I've enjoyed every match versus the CFS Russians I've played. That's why I recommended the Greek combo.
SWO_Daddy

Asbestos,

This is what I've got for a list of available WOTC units:  Some more digging might open the door to a handful of DDs or other minor units, but I think this is close.  Note - in the case of DDs, I'm treating any ship in the class serving in the Med as sufficent to include the ship):

Axis Fleets:

Italian Units:
Italian fleets and units may be used freely.

Vittorio Veneto
Giulio Cesare
Littorio
Caio Duilio
Roma
Aquila
Luca Tarigo
Ugolino Vivaldi
Pegaso
Ascari
Antilope
Bolzano
Zara
Gorizia
Trento
San Giorgio
Duca D'Aosta
Eugenio Di Savoia
Giuseppe Garibaldi
Scipione Africano
Ambra
Leonardo Da Vinci
Motor Torpedo Boat
Z506 B Airone
C.202 Folgore
SM.79 Sparviero
JU-87R2 Picchiatelli
RE.2001CB Falco II

German Units:
German fleets may not be used, German units may only be used in Italian builds. In addition to Italian units, Italian fleets may include 1 German unit on the following list per 50 points
ZG3
S-Boat
U-47
U-552
Bf 109
Ju87B Stuka
Ju88A-4
FW200 Kondor

Japanese Units:
Japanese fleets and units may not be used.

Finnish Units:
Finnish fleets and units may not be used.

Allied Fleets:

Greek Units:
UK/Commonwealth units may be used freely in Greek fleets and vice versa.
Georgios Averoff
Vasilissa Olga
Proteus

Dutch Units:
Dutch fleets may not be used. Dutch submarines may be included in UK/Commonwealth builds only.

Polish Units:
Polish fleets may not be used. Polish units may be used in UK/Commonwealth builds only.
ORP Błyskawica

Soviet Units:
Soviet Black Sea Fleet units and select lend-lease aircraft may not be used in Soviet builds.   Soviet units may not be used in UK/Commonwealth builds.
Sovyetskiy Soyuz - Fantasy
Krasnyi Krym
Gromkiy
S-13
P-40
IL-2

UK/Commonwealth Units:
UK/Commonwealth fleets and units may be used freely. UK/Commonwealth fleets may include the units of up to 1 other non-Commonwealth Allied nation according to the rules dictated for that nation.

HMS Hood
HMS Rodney
HMS King George V
HMS Warspite
HMS Prince of Wales
HMS Ark Royal
HMS Fencer
HMS Illustrious
HMS Victorious
HMS Kent
HMS Ajax
HMS Sheffield
HMS Euryalus
HMS Javelin
HMS Cossack
HMS Truculent
Halifax GR Mk.V
Short Sunderland Mk 1
Swordfish Mk.II
Barracuda Mk.II
Sea Hurricane Mk.IB
Beaufighter TF Mk.X
F4F Martlet Mk.II



Australia
HMAS Sydney
HMAS Nizam

NZ
HMNZS Leander

Canada
HMCS St. Laurent
HMCS Sackville

US Units:
Major US units did operate in the Mediterranean alongside the Royal Navy. 1 USN unit may be used in UK/Commonwealth builds per 100 points.
USS Massachusetts BB59
USS Nevada BB36
USS Wasp CV7
USS Quincy CA71
USS Boise CL47
USS Cleveland CL55
USS Barb SS220
USS Laffey DD724
USS Taylor DD468
USS Allen M Sumner DD692
USS Fletcher DD445
USS Hoel DD533
USS Kidd DD661
USS Phelps DD360
USS John C. Butler DDE339
USS Samuel B Roberts DE413
PT Boat (PT-71)
PBY Catalina
B-24D Liberator
F6F-3 Hellcat
TBF Avenger
TBF-1 Avenger
SBD Dauntless
TBD Devastator
F4F Wildcat
P-40E Warhawk

Axis/Allied fleets
French Units:
French fleets may be considered Axis or Allied. French fleets may not include non-French units and French units may not be used in non-French fleets.
Richelieu
Dunkerque
Provence
Béarn (may use Marlets)
Le Terrible
Milan
Suffren
Algérie
Glorie
Casabianca
Dewoitine D.520
V.156 Vindicator

Neutral fleets
Swedish Units:
Swedish fleets and units may not be used.
kid360

Can I push for GZ? I mean, where else would it have served? The north seas were too dangerous for KM capital ships, as evidenced by Bismark. It would have fled to the protection of Italy's harbors if it had been finished, right? So, GZ?
sublime828

kid360 wrote:
Can I push for GZ? I mean, where else would it have served? The north seas were too dangerous for KM capital ships, as evidenced by Bismark. It would have fled to the protection of Italy's harbors if it had been finished, right? So, GZ?


I don't think this is a very good argument for GZ at all.  GZ was meant to directly support a much larger surface fleet that never materialized.  Under Plan-Z, the German surface fleet was to be made considerably larger, larger enough to go toe-to-toe with the British surface fleet in fact and GZ would have been right there with the rest of the surface fleet.  When Plan-Z was abandoned, there was no longer any reason to finish and launch a fleet carrier, hence the abandonment of ship that was 90% complete and only required the final outfitting of armament and propulsion systems.  Making an assumption that a ship would have gone to a particular theater really isn't the goal that we are trying to achieve here.  We are looking for histroical facts.  As for the conjectural ships in question, we have been looking at the particular places where the ships in question were laid down or scheduled to be laid down.  Adding GZ to the ClubMed because you think it may have gone there really isn't a viable reason to include it in your fleets.  just my 2 cents   Smile
SWO_Daddy

Under the rules theater clubs are using, I don't know that we could do it anyway.  Graf Zep was based up north.  Under the rules we simply can't include her.  Believe me, there are a bunch of units I'd like to add because they had sisters in the Med, but can't because of the rule that the "named" ship didn't operate there.
Asbestos

We should drop the Dutch, when I did the initial research I found a Dutch sub in the Med, but it isn't of the class we have.

There really weren't any Type VII uboats in the Med?


Edit: Noticed HMS Eagle isn't on the list. I believe that when the war broke out Glorious was in the Med, but soon left. I need to look that up again.
SWO_Daddy

U-47  (Type VIIB) and  U-552 (Type VIIC) both made the list. This website lists the boats that made it to the Med:

http://www.uboat.net/ops/med-all.htm

I'd very much like to include U-66 and U-510, but they were both Type IXC, which didn't serve in the Med.  If somebody has a reference that says they made it in there, I'd very much appreciate it.  U-510 and U-66 are my preferred U-boats in W@S.
NeuralDream

U-73 operated in the Med too.
Asbestos

I also noticed that's a lot of Americans.. Let them be their own fleet in 1942 or later?
Combat Wombat

SWO- I have the U-510 headed out to Singapore, Kobe, Japan and Jakarta, I just cant find the route of travel yet either thru the Med or around Africa..I am still looking for you though. Problem is the ship was there in the east from about Oct 1944 to mid 1945 but it surrendered in France.
SWO_Daddy

There is definately enough to put together USN fleets.  Not a lot of carrier though.  Likewise, the RN looks a little lean in DDs and cruisers.

What about allowing either a RN build w/ one USN unit per 100 points or a USN build w/ one RN unit per 100 points?
Asbestos

Combat Wombat wrote:
SWO- I have the U-510 headed out to Singapore, Kobe, Japan and Jakarta, I just cant find the route of travel yet either thru the Med or around Africa..I am still looking for you though. Problem is the ship was there in the east from about Oct 1944 to mid 1945 but it surrendered in France.



For subs only class matters, not the specific unit.

USN should also have Archerfish.

@SWO_Daddy: I think I like that idea.

If we want to make it more complex we could say 1 unit of cruiser, battleship, or carrier per 100 or 1 unit of destroyer, submarine, torpedo boat, or aircraft per 50. Rounds out both fleets without (I don't think) making them significantly more powerful.
SWO_Daddy

Barb is Gato class, while Archerfish is Balao class.  Haven't found a Balao with Med service *yet*.  Anybody got citation for any Balao class boats in the Med?

@Asbestos, I like that idea.  Maybe another way to word it:

RN builds may include 1 USN unit for every 50 points.  Carriers, Battleships, and Cruisers count as two units for this purpose.

and

USN builds may include 1 RN unit for every 50 points.  Carriers, Battleships, and Cruisers count as two units for this purpose.
Asbestos

That is better worded. You're right, no Balao but... now that I look I can't find any Gato that actually went through Gibraltar. Looks like they supported Torch, but near as I can tell that stayed out of the Med.
sublime828

SWO_Daddy wrote:
Barb is Gato class, while Archerfish is Balao class.  Haven't found a Balao with Med service *yet*.  Anybody got citation for any Balao class boats in the Med?

@Asbestos, I like that idea.  Maybe another way to word it:

RN builds may include 1 USN unit for every 50 points.  Carriers, Battleships, and Cruisers count as two units for this purpose.

and

USN builds may include 1 RN unit for every 50 points.  Carriers, Battleships, and Cruisers count as two units for this purpose.


this looks great guys. nice job!
Asbestos

SWO_Daddy, were there actually TBD squadrons in the Med? I figured they were pretty much all in the Pacific (and certainly gone by Operation Torch)

Also, I think you missed a plane:
http://books.google.com/books?id=...=b-25%20mediterranean&f=false
SWO_Daddy

I'll look again at the TBD.  I think the connection here was the Wasp in Operation Pedestal.

Probably not a huge deal if we didn't have it...I don't know many people who actually use the Devestator.

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