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Brigman

Club Frozen Seas theater research: All Nations

I'm focusing this research firstly on WAS units published in the game.  I'll expand into sisters as time permits. Ships excluded from theater will be in red.

United Kingdom, Commonwealth, and Operational Allies

BATTLESHIPS

HMS Rodney served in the North Atlantic, as well as the Atlantic, Home fleet, American waters, and the Med.

HMS Nelson, the flagship of the Home Fleet, served in theater in the early war, as well as the Med and Indian Ocean.

HMS King George V served out of Scapa Flow, Norway; the Med; and the Pacific theater.

HMS Prince of Wales operated in the Denmark straight and participated in the hunt for Bismark, engaging her.

HMS Repulse participated in the Norwegian campaign

HMS Hood, of course, sank in the Denmark straight by Bismark

HMS Royal Oak was sunk at Scapa Flow, Norway

HMS Warspite participated in the Norwegian campaign; she also served in the Med and Indian ocean.

CARRIERS

HMS Ark Royal served in the Atlantic with the home fleet, guarding the Western Approaches; the southern Atlantic; the Med; and Scapa Flow in Norway.

HMS Victorious participated in several arctic convoys, and searched for Bismark.

HMS Illustrious served primarily in the Med and Indian Ocean, and off of Africa.  However she was the first carrier to deploy Barracudas off the coast of Norway in 1943.

HMS Glorious participated in the Norwegian Campaign after serving prior in the Med and Indian Ocean.  Sunk by Scharnhorst in the Norwegian Sea.

HMS Fencer escorted Russian convoys for ASW roles by using wildcats, martlets, swordfish or avengers.

CRUISERS

HMS  Belfast escorted Artic convoys and participated in the battle of North Cape

HMS Jamaica escorted Artic convoys and participated in the battle of North Cape, as well as the battle of  Barents sea

HMS Kent served with Home fleet escorting convoys to and from North Russia, mid-1944 escorts British carriers carrying out attacks against German industries in Norway

HMS Sheffield patrolled the Denmark Straight and participated in the Norwegian Campaign. She also served in the Home Fleet, Atlantic and Med, and escorted Arctic convoys.

HMCS Uganda operated out of Scapa Flow escorting convoys.  She also served in the Med and Pacific.

HMS Euryalus was stationed out of Scapa Flow before transferring to the Med, then to the Pacific and back to the northern seas near the end of the war.

HMS Hawkins, in 1944, was operating in British waters, where she was involved in operation "Neptune", and prior to that took part in "Operation Tiger".

HMAS Australia served in the home fleet in the mid 1940s and was cited for participation in the Battle of the Atlantic.

ORP Dragon was initially attached to the 7th Cruiser Squadron of the Northern Patrol operating against German U-boats in the Shetland area. It also performed convoy escorts in theater around Murmansk.

SUBMARINES

HMS Truculent served in the Pacific Fleet, but also in home waters, participating in Operation Source to attack the Tirpitz in Norway.  T-class submarines were used in the theater.

ORP Orzel patrolled the Baltic and escaped to Estonia, depositing captured guards in Sweden, and participated in the Norwegian Campaign.

Hr. Ms. Zvaardvisch is a T-class submarine, which operated in theater, although Zvaardvisch herself did not.

DESTROYERS

HMS Javelin and many other J-class destroyers served in the theater.  Javelin and a flotilla of J-class DDs participated in the Battle of Narvik off Norway.

HMS Saumarez served escorting Arctic convoys and participated in the battle of the North Cape.  S-class DDs served in theater.

HMS Cossack boarded Altmark in Norwegian waters, and participated in the Second Battle of Narvik.  Tribal-class DDs operated in theater.

HMS Swale saw extensive service on convoy escort missions and experienced some of the worst days of the Battle of the Atlantic.  River-class DDs served in theater.

HMCS Haida is a Tribal-class DD and can therefore operate in theater.  She also participated in escort duty in Arctic and Russian waters.

HMCS St. Laurent participated in convoy escort duties in the North Atlantic.

HMCS Sackville escorted trans-Atlantic convoys in the northern seas and engaged German submarines off of the coast of Newfoundland.

HMAS Nizam, an N-class DD, operated out of Scapa Flow in both fleet duties and escort duty before transferring to the Med, Indian Ocean, and South Pacific.

HMAS Arunta is a Tribal-class DD, which operated in theater, although Arunta herself did not.

ORP Blyskawica, a Grom-class DD, fought with the British home fleet, taking part in the Norwegian Campaign.

Hr. Ms. Van Galen, an N-class DD, served in convoy escort duty out of Britain in the late war as part of the 8th DD Flotilla.

Witte de With served primarily in the Java Sea and was an escort for Exeter, but is of the same class as Van Galen (Admiralen) and so may be used in theater.

HMCS Algonquin is representative of the V-class destroyer, which served in theater.

USS Edsall, while not serving in theater, is representative of the Clemson class, which was lent/leased in large numbers in theater. One ship, the USS Herndon, actually served in three navies (US, UK and USSR, as the Herndon, Churchill and Deyatelny, respectively).

AUXILIARIES

HMS Halcyon served as the lead ship in the 1st Minesweeper Flotilla and saw service during the Arctic convoys, including Convoy PQ-17 in 1942.

TORPEDO BOATS

Vosper class torpedo boats were used extensively in theater.

AIRCRAFT

Beaufighter TF Mk X served in all theaters, and notably the North Coates Strike Wing of Coastal Command, based at RAF North Coates on the Lincolnshire coast.

Martlett Mk. II, the British Wildcat, was first used in Europe and served extensively in theater. In the European theater, the Wildcat scored its first combat victory on Christmas Day 1940, when a land-based Martlet destroyed a Junkers Ju 88 bomber over the Scapa Flow naval base This was the first combat victory by a US-built fighter in British service in World War II.

Sea Hurricane Mk. 1B served throughout the theater, notably aboard the HMS Furious over the North Atlantic and in the Baltic.

Barracuda Mk II replaced the Swordfish in service and was used to attack the Tirpitz over Norway, among other North Atlantic operations.  She was first deployed off of HMS Illustrious off of Norway in the 810 squadron.

Sunderland Mk. 1 was involved in countering the threat posed by German U-boats in the Battle of the Atlantic. It operated off the coast of Norway as well.

Halifax GR Mk V were also operated by RAF Coastal Command for anti submarine warfare, reconnaissance and meteorological roles.

Swordfish Mk. II were operated in theater, most notably to cripple the Bismark during her famous breakout attempt.

V-156F Vindicator was called the Chesapeake in UK service and formed the 811 Naval Air Squadron in the early war.

Swordfish Mk I were operated in theater, being the predecessor to the Mk II.

P-40 Warhawk - In all, 18 Royal Air Force (RAF) squadrons, as well as four Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF), three South African Air Force (SAAF), and two Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) squadrons serving with RAF formations, used P-40s.

B25H Mitchell - the Royal Air Force (RAF) was an early customer for the B-25 via Lend-Lease. The RAF was the only force to use the B-25 on raids against Europe from bases in the United Kingdom

B24 Liberator - Liberator GR Is in British service were the first B-24s to be used operationally.

PBY Catalina were deployed in practically all of the operational theatres of World War II, and two Victoria Crosses were won by Catalina pilots pressing home their attacks on U-boats in the face of heavy fire: John Cruickshank of the RAF, in 1944, against the U-347 and in the same year Flight Lt. David Hornell of the RCAF (posthumously) against the U-1225.

TBF-1 Avenger operated from Great Britain doing anti-surface, anti-sub patrols. Some operated from HMS Fencer in this role.

F4U-1D Corsair was used on British carriers in theater in larger numbers, and earlier, than they were on American carriers.  

CARRIERS

HMS Eagle started the War in the Indian Ocean, served in the Med and South Atlantic as well.

CRUISERS

HMS Ajax participated in the battle of River Plate, operated primarily in the West Indies, Med, and South Atlantic.

HMS Exeter - battle of River Plate, operated primarily in the West Indies, Med, and South Atlantic.

HMNZS Leander served initially in the Pacific and Indian oceans, then later the Persian Gulf and the Med before returning to the Pacific.

Hr. Ms. De Ruyter served primarily in the Dutch East Indies and was sunk by Haguro in the Java Sea.


Soviet Union, Lend-Lease, and Operational Allies

BATTLESHIPS

Arkhangelsk operated out of Scapa Flow as Royal Sovereign, and when transferred to the Soviet Navy, she was the flagship of Admiral Gordey Levchenko and was tasked with meeting Allied convoys in the Arctic Ocean and escorting them.

Oktyabrskaya Revolutsia participated in the Winter War by bombarding the Finnish coast. Transferred to Tallinn and provided fire support during the siege of Leningrad.

CRUISERS

Kirov fought in the Winter War off the Finnish coast, and served in the Baltic Fleet.  She fought in defense of Tallinn and Leningrad.

ORP Dragon  performed convoy escorts in theater around Murmansk.

USS Richmond patrolled the Aleutians in 1943 and operated in theater.  Note: Class sister to USS Milwaukee, which was lent to the Russians as Murmansk.  Used here to represent Murmansk, though Richmond did serve in theater.

SUBMARINES

S-13 fought in Finnish waters and off the Polish coast.

ORP Orzel patrolled the Baltic and escaped to Estonia, depositing captured guards in Sweden, and participated in the Norwegian Campaign.

DESTROYERS

Gromkiy served with the Soviet Northern Fleet, which served in the Barents and Norwegian Seas, the Arctic and Atlantic Oceans, and is responsible for the defense of northwestern Russia.

ORP Blyskawica, a Grom-class DD, took part in the Norwegian Campaign.

USS Edsall, while not serving in theater, is representative of the Clemson class, which was lent/leased in large numbers in theater. One ship, the USS Herndon, actually served in three navies (US, UK and USSR, as the Herndon, Churchill and Deyatelny, respectively).

TORPEDO BOATS

Vosper class torpedo boats were used extensively in theater.

PT Boat torpedo boats were used in theater.

AIRCRAFT

1L-2M Sturmovik was produced by the Soviets in very large numbers and was their primary attack plane of the war.  The participated in attacks on the Finnish coast and other areas throughout the war, tangling with the Luftwaffe.

P-40 Warhawk was lent-leased to the Soviets in numbers, who called it the 'Tomahawk' and 'Kittyhawk'. It was used in the northern sectors and played a significant role in the defense of Leningrad.

Sea Hurricane Mk 1B was the most common British aircraft in Soviet service.

B25H Mitchell - The US supplied 862 B-25 aircraft to the Soviet Union under Lend-Lease during the Second World War.

PBY Catalina / Black Cat was licensed for Soviet use; they produced their own variant which was called the GBT in Soviet service.  Soviet Union also received nearly 200 under the Lend-Lease Act.

CONJECTURAL

Sovyetskiy Soyuz was formally laid down 15 July 1938 in Shipyard Nr. 189 (Ordzhonikidze) in Leningrad.  She would certainly have been launched into the Baltic and participated in the theater.

CRUISERS

Krasni Krym provided gunfire support to Soviet forces defending Odessa and escorted convoys into Odessa during the month of September 1941. While built in the Baltic, she operated in the Black Sea during the war.


Germany and Finland

BATTLESHIPS

Bismarck- pretty obvious but it participated in the Denmark Strait

Rheinubung Bismarck - the thing only operated in theater.

Tirpitz - Norway Invasion, Baltic Fleet, convoy raider

Sharnhorst - Norway Invasion, channel dash, convoy raider, Battle of North Cape

Gniesnau - Norway, channel dash

Schleswig-Holstien - first shots of war, bombarded Poland

CRUISERS

Admiral Sheer - convoy raider in Norway, sorties in the Kara Sea vs Soviet surface forces and convoys

Admiral Hipper - Norway Invasion, convoy raider

Blucher - Norway Invasion

Prinz Eugen - Bismarck breakout, channel dash, convoy raider

Karlsruhe - Norway Invasion

Koln - Norway Invasion, convoy raider

Konigsberg participated in the invasion of Norway

Nurnberg - mine layer/ Northern British Coast, Baltic Fleet

Vainamoinen - winter war, coastal defense

SUBMARINES

U-510 - 4th Submarine flotilla operating out of Stettin

U-66 - 2nd Submarine flotilla operating out of Wilhelmshaven

U-47 - 7th Submarine flotilla operating out of Kiel, sank Royal Oak at Scapa flow

U-552 - 7th Submarine flotilla operating out of Kiel

U-2511 - After training with 31st U-boat Flotilla, U-2511 was transferred to 11th U-boat Flotilla at Bergen, Norway, for front-line service on 15 March 1945

DESTROYERS

Z18 Hans Lüdemann - invasion of Denmark

Z20 Karl Galster - mining operation in the Thames Estuary and Plymouth

Z32 - operations with Baltic Fleet

T27 - Operations in Baltic as coastal patrol/escort

TORPEDO BOATS

S-Boats - patrolled coastal areas in Baltic, English Channel

AUXILIARIES

Nordmark - operations in Norway region 42-45

Atlantis - Broken from an Ice Jam in the Kaiser-Wilhelm canal (along with the aux cruisers Orion and Widder) by the WWI battleship Hessen, Atlantis started her voyage to the Atlantic.  Under a Norweigan disguise, she was inspected by various RAF aircraft and managed to outrun 2 British vessels through a very bad storm in the north sea and escaped into the Atlantic via the arctic circle. Here's the link: http://www.bismarck-class.dk/hilfskreuzer/atlantis.html

M1 Minesweeper - M-class minesweepers were operated in theater as the standard German minesweeper.

AIRCRAFT

All German aircraft operated throughout the theater.

Ju87
Ju88
FW Kondor
- Churchill  called them "the scourge of the Atlantic"
Fi167 - built for Graf Zepplin, sent to Norway
FW 190
BF109


Buffalo fighters - operated during the Winter War

CONJECTURAL

Frederich der Grosse - First H-39 laid down in Hamburg.  Plan Z ship intended to outclass any other RN battleship and battle its way through a RN blockade.

Moltke - procurement of materials had been completed and planned construction at the shipyard in Kiel was in place when the orders for o-class ships were canceled.  Plan Z ship intended for merchant raiding.

Graf Zepplin - Laid down in Kiel and 90% competed, Graf Zepplen was intended to make the German surface fleet a more balanced fighting force and to extend the operation of the Luftwaffe.

CRUISERS

Admiral Graf Spee - Left German waters on August 29, 1939.  Scuttled in Montevideo after battles with British surface vessels.

DESTROYERS

ZG3 - Captured greek destroyer, only operated in med.


Sweden

BATTLESHIPS

HMS Gustav V, a Svierge-class coastal defense ship, was the backbone of the Swedish Navy in World War II, providing the main defense of their coast.

CRUISERS

HMS Gotland sighted the German battleship Bismarck when it broke out of the Baltic Sea. That was reported to Swedish Navy headquarters but the message was intercepted by the British embassy which triggered the allied chase of the great battleship.

DESTROYERS

HMS Göteborg served in patrolling the Swedish coast, which is included in theater.

To be continued... others welcome to contribute.
zangetsu24

I'll put down what i found with cruisers and escort carriers


HMS Fencer escorted russian convoys  for ASW roles by using wildcats, martlets , swordfish or avengers

HMS Ajax - battle of river plate

HMS  Belfast - artic convoys , battle of north cape

HMS Exter - battle of river plate

HMS Jamaica - artic convoys , battle of north cape , battle of  Barents sea

HMS Kent  - served with Home fleet escorting convoys to and from North Russia, mid 1944 escorts british carriers carrying out attacks against german industries in Norway
Bull Halsey

so what we are saying is i cant have 1 ship representing entire class?
sublime828

all of the KGV sisters operated in the home fleet/ northern waters until the defeat of germany (then they were all transfered to the pac)  Nelson and Rodney were both served in the home fleet, rodney pursued Bismarck and Nelson was on deck if needed in the pursuit of the Bis...............Nelson was also the flagship of home fleet at the beginning of the war.

Nice job so far brigs.........., since you have it going in the first post of this thread, Im putting you in charge of our UK list.  If  you would, make the top group(in black) the units that will be available for CFS and the bottom group(in red) will be the units that wont be available.  My focus is  capitol ships.  I really don't feel its necassary to strip down everything that is already established in our clubs.  Limiting the capitol ships to the ones that operated in theater is by far enough.  Thanks to everybody else who is chiping in some Research!!  

Bull I'm not sure what that means......but Im sure we are going to find out soon!
NeuralDream

For those who missed the earlier discussion, the idea is simple (and will have to be followed by all clubs):

- Did this specific battleship, this specific carrier, this specific cruiser, this type of aircraft, this class of subs, this class of destroyers, this type of torpedo boats operate at any point during the war in my theatre of operations?

If the answer is yes, then you can have it in your list and you can use as many of this as the class limit (or whatever houserule you agree with your opponent).
sublime828

that makes more sense, thanks ND!
NeuralDream

When you finish your research, add the list of units in the first post of your HQ please Smile.
Brigman

Zang, thanks for the assistance!

Sub, will do.  I'm going to edit the top list rather than add to it in future posts.

ND - couple questions (I know don't you love me?):

1. Should we list ships from the FN deck or Expanded Deck as well?  Or are these not going to be allowed in League play even with opponent's permission?

2. Will these restrictions apply only to League play (i.e. Tournament) or ALL Club matches?  I'd imagine the latter but am hoping we can still use the FN and ED cards in regular Club play at least (with opponent's permission)...
NeuralDream

1. That's up to SrgPoofy and co to decide, but I doubt they know already. It's a bit early to tell how the leagues will look like.
My suggestion is to list FN ships too, but separately (the same for fantasy ships or anything else you allow in official or unofficial games).

2. All club matches.
Brigman

OK, I'll have a separate category for "Conjectural" ships as well as "FN ships"... first I'm concentrating on the "official" printed ships.
P71

J-Class (Javelin) fought at Cromer vrs. German 1934 A-Class DD's (not in WaS).

Occupation of Norway/Denmark:

Germany:
Scharhorst
Gneisenau
1936 DD (Z18, Z20)
Admiral Hipper
Koln, Konigsburg (not in WaS)
S-Boats
Karlsruhe
Blucher
Lutzlow (not in WaS)
Emden (not in WaS)
R-Boats (not in WaS)
M-Class Minesweepers
Schleswig-Holstein
U47, U66

UK:
HMS Glowworm (G-Class DD, not in WaS)
HMS Renown (not in WaS)
H-Class DD (not in WaS)
HMS Warspite
HMS Cossack (Tribal Class DD)
I-Class DD (not in WaS)
E/F-Class DD (not in WaS)
HMS Glorious
A-Class DD (not in WaS)

So far, decent for the German builds, and not so good for the UK...
Brigman

Actually, P71, all of the British BBs operated in our theater at some point or another.  See above.  And please let's not turn this into a witch hunt to track down and "disprove" ships served.

Also, this thread is for UK ships only.  Somebody else can manage the German one.  Wink
P71

Wasn't trying to disprove, I was just copying over info to help out from some order of battle pages. This is just the results of the first operation. There's still a ton of Northern battles left to do!
Brigman

I'm maintaining a master list of the Brit units above, and in fact am almost finished.  Wink
P71

Oh, wow! You made a lot of progress on that from the last time I looked! Sorry then.
Brigman

No need for sorrys.  I update the list up top rather than add to it so that it is all in one place and easier to track.

This is all a bit harrowing for us in the multi-clubs so I am trying to be proactive and positive, even if I have some reservations.  Wink
sublime828

Brigs--  Leave the Forumini Navies cards as a end of the list thing.  They have always been a match level decision by the players playing in the match.  Same with class limits, class limits are a match level decision made by the players playing.  

All German Units were active in our theater.
All soviet units, and polish units were active in our theater

FDG was laid down in Hamburg, Germany and would have been which is in theater.

SS was laid down in the former city of Molotovsk (now Severodvinsk)  also in theater.

Like I said before the Uk will have some changes but the German and Soviets will remain basically the same.
Brigman

Sub, will do, I will list FN/ED cards at the end in a separate list.

Eventually, once I am "done", I will organize the above by class type (BB, CA, CV, etc).
sublime828

It's looking awsome brigs!  I appreciate your hard work!!

It looks as though are biggest losses for the will be in the CV department with the departures of Illustrious and Eagle.  We'll be missing a for cruiser options too. But, like always, for god and country.....England will endure!

keep up the good work and let me know if you would like me to help with anything.
Brigman

Thanks!

I do hate to lose Illustrious as she was one of my favorites, and losing Eagle really sucks some of my anticipation of Set VI down the drain. Sad

Perhaps you could start a similar thread for the Germans?  Even if they all served, we're required to list them and give a short citation of their service area... I will be happy to do the Russians next, once I'm done with the Brits.
Brigman

Here's a question.  Since we are now no longer defining our club by NATIONS, but rather strictly on THEATER, should I look at units previously not allowed?

Example, Australian or New Zealand ships?  

What about American Air for the UK, since they did operate in the area (Avengers were flown off of HMS Fencer whilst sub-hunting, for example)?
P71

sublime828 wrote:

All German Units were active in our theater.


False.

Admiral Graf Spee was already in the South Atlantic when WWII started.
ZG3 was a captured ship that only served in the Med.

Atlantis technically only exited your theatre after being built, she never actually raided a ship north of 50*.
Nordmark also technically never operated north of 50*.

Graf Zeppelin, Friedrich der Grosse, and Moltke will all obviously have to be listed as "Fantasy" as well. (Funnily enough, the only operational Fi-167's were sent to Norway!)

sublime828 wrote:

All soviet units, and polish units were active in our theater


Also false.

Krasnyi Krym did not operate in the Baltic. You would only get a maximum of 2 Kirov's. IL-2 Sturmovik would be classified with Sovietsky Soyuz as "Fantasy". Further, you Lend-Lease units would need to be detailed out as having fought in Naval actions...

Not trying to be difficult here, I'm just trying to show that ND's proposal is killing the Theatre Clubs fleet builds, which will discourage play.
NeuralDream

Brigman wrote:
Here's a question.  Since we are now no longer defining our club by NATIONS, but rather strictly on THEATER, should I look at units previously not allowed?

Example, Australian or New Zealand ships?  

What about American Air for the UK, since they did operate in the area (Avengers were flown off of HMS Fencer whilst sub-hunting, for example)?
If they were US avengers, of course yes. Yes, why not NZ and Aussie ships if they did operate there.

I'll be probably unavailable for the next few hours. See you all later.
Brigman

P71, you are trying to make this harder than it has to be.

Nowhere did it say that aircraft had to be specified to operate in specific naval operations, only that they operated "in theater".  Quit trying to smash the wheel to prove it's broken please.

In any case this thread is about UK (and associated) units in Club Frozen Seas service.  Not Germans or Russians.  Those are somebody else's headache, or mine at a future date... I can only handle so much in what is laughingly called my "spare time" here.
Solomiranthius

I think P71 is just trying to grasp the scope and the potential effect of what is being proposed. I don't think the proposal has been laid out with enough detail and specificity to truly determine how it will change fleet makeups. It is possible that what P71 said is the true implication of the proposal - wholesale restrictions on available units. It could also be that it is something less than that.

P71 is describing the "worst-case-scenario" as it might be. However it is worth knowing what the worst-case-scenario is, just in case that is the direction we might be heading.
Brigman

I've been talking with Neural Dream since this all came down.  Believe me, I had reservations about it, and am still not fully happy with it, but the goal here is not to gut the multi-nation clubs but rather transform them into true "theater" clubs.

I believe with cooperation and positive work we can make this happen in a positive way that will not kill the multinationals.

I kicked and screamed like everyone else when this was first announced, but it is obvious that it is going to happen, so I am trying to make the best of it.  

I also think ND and the mods are operating with the best of intentions.  If there are specific issues (Club Med's US cruisers is one), ND has expressed openness to dealing with them... once efforts have been made.
Brigman

Back on topic... have added several Australian units that served in theater, as well as confirming that our two Polish units did serve in theater.

List constantly being updated as I do more research.
Brigman

Updated to include some air.  Also found, while researching the Barracuda, that the Illustrious was the first carrier to field one off of Norway in 1943.  So even though she spent the bulk of her career in the Med and South Pacific, she DID serve in the Northern seas and so has been returned to our roster.  Smile
P71

Not really "UK" per say, but the French BB's Dunkerque and Strasbourg both fought in the RN task force against the Bismarck. I just ran into that researching something else and thought you'd like to know Wink
Brigman

Appreciated.  Sublime, do we include these French units?  Casabianca also served off of Norway...

BTW, P71, check the notes on some of my entries... I mainly was looking to see if they served in our theater, but did note some as having served in the South Pacific.  Wink
P71

Brigman wrote:
...that the Illustrious was the first carrier to field one off of Norway in 1943.  So even though she spent the bulk of her career in the Med and South Pacific, she DID serve in the Northern seas and so has been returned to our roster.  Smile


Where did you find this? All of the info I have on Illustrious shows her as commissioning, going to the Med, damaged then into Alexandria and finally Virginia for repairs, and finally with the British Pacific Fleet. Are sure it wasn't an "Illustrious-Class"?
P71

Brigman wrote:
I mainly was looking to see if they served in our theater, but did note some as having served in the South Pacific.  Wink


Tell me about it! The Victorious served in SoPac in 43 as the USS Robin! Ha-ha!!
P71

P71 wrote:
Brigman wrote:
...that the Illustrious was the first carrier to field one off of Norway in 1943.  So even though she spent the bulk of her career in the Med and South Pacific, she DID serve in the Northern seas and so has been returned to our roster.  Smile


Where did you find this? All of the info I have on Illustrious shows her as commissioning, going to the Med, damaged then into Alexandria and finally Virginia for repairs, and finally with the British Pacific Fleet. Are sure it wasn't an "Illustrious-Class"?


Never mind, it might not matter! Now ND is saying only the class has to have "served" in the theatre: "The class limit doesn't have to do with how many operated in the Med. Only with which ship did. Sydney did. So, its class is in. Leander the same."

I specifically asked him to clarify and used Illustrious as an example...
sublime828

Brigman wrote:
Appreciated.  Sublime, do we include these French units?  Casabianca also served off of Norway...

BTW, P71, check the notes on some of my entries... I mainly was looking to see if they served in our theater, but did note some as having served in the South Pacific.  Wink


Not at the moment, we'll hold off on that until our main fleets are finished.  That should be the focus for now.
Brigman

Illustrious actually served in theater, albeit briefly, as it turns out.  But he's the boss; I was told that class limits are optional, but if the "WOTC ship" didn't serve, sisters that did cannot be used unless they, too, have "published" stats/cards.

Added some formatting to help organize things.
P71

If she was in theatre, you get her, even if she didn't "operate" per say (see ND's Bearn example in the Club Med thread). I just didn't know she was ever up there at all. Post up a link or scan or something and get her back!
Brigman

I posted a note.  I didn't find her service listed under her own article, but while researching the Barracuda I found she was the first carrier to field them, off the coast of Norway in 1943. Wink
P71

Brigman wrote:
I posted a note.  I didn't find her service listed under her own article, but while researching the Barracuda I found she was the first carrier to field them, off the coast of Norway in 1943. Wink


Brigman,

I'm going to have to say that you need better info then a random line in a wikipedia entry for an un-related unit to make that claim. Find some real evidence. I'm looking through my books for you!
Brigman

Fortunately the decision is not up to you. Wink

Seriously, go mind your own club.  I am working hard enough to get all this done without someone running around trying to poke holes in my work.  I'm making a good faith effort, not just fudging stuff.  None of us here are Naval Historians (that I know of).
sublime828

Brigs....fires and I got the list finished up for the germans I'll post it up here in a little bit and you can put it in the first post in this thread.
Brigman

Sub, will do.
torpman

You may use the Witte de With becuase one of the class because HNLMS Van Galen fought and was sunk in the Netherlands
sublime828

Here you go brigs (this is for our RAF-US lend lease aircraft) we'll be using the same rules that we developed for CRN.

TBF-1 avengers

RAF TBF-1 avengers operated from Great Britain doing anti-surface, anti-sub patrols

the squadrons were RAF Squadron 849 and 854.....those are just the ones I have found so far
sublime828

heres your illustrious confirmation brigs

October                  Returned to UK with Home Fleet ships on release from detached duty.
                            Nominated for service with Eastern Fleet. 24th                       Prepared for foreign service at Birkenhead (Note: Work included fit of additional twin Oerlikon mountings, modification of flight deck and improvement to catapult for use with fully loaded BARRACUDA aircraft.)

November  26th        Took passage to Clyde area to carry out flying training.

December            Deployed in NW Approaches.
          30th        Sailed to join Eastern Fleet with HM Battleships QUEEN ELIZABETH and VALIANT, HM Battlecruiser RENOWN and HM Light Fleet Carrier UNICORN.



This information is located on this webpage (a great Royal Navy resource I might add Very Happy )

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-04CV-Illustrious.htm

That was a great catch Brigs, I never would have caught that.
Brigman

Thanks for the backup, Sub.  Smile

I'm not going to add a ton to the Illustrious entry in my list so far; rather your info just substantiates it.  For which I'm grateful.
Brigman

I have also added the Soviet units we had in the game prior.  I may do some research into other Lend/Lease craft.

To date I haven't done ANY FN/ED card ships.  Focusing on the "canon" stuff first.

I am using the term "Conjectural" rather than "Fantasy", as all the "Fantasy haterz/bashing" has soured me on the term...
Brigman

Torpy - thanks, I missed that; didn't realize they were the same class.
sublime828

Ok Brigs Here is the KM list that fires and I put together tonight using the internet and a bunch of the refernce books I have lying around.

                       KM Ships that operated in the CFS Theater

KM Battleships

Bismarck- pretty obvious but it participated in the Denmark Strait

Tirpitz - norway invasion, baltic fleet, convoy raider

Sharnhorst - norway invasion, channel dash, convoy raider, Battle of north cape

Gniesnau - norway, channel dash

Schleswig Holstien - first shots of war, bombarded Poland

FDG - First H-39 laid down in Hamburg.  Plan Z ship intended to outclass any other RN battleship and battle its way through a RN blockade

KM Battle Cruisers

O Class - procurment of materials had been completed and planned construction at the shipyard in Kiel was in place when the orders for o-class ships were canceled.  Plan Z ship intended for merchant raiding.

KM Aircraft Carriers

Graf Zepplin - Laid down in Kiel and 90% competed, Graf Zepplen was intended to make the German surface fleet a more balanced fighting force and to extend the operation of the Luftwaffe

KM Cruisers

Admiral Sheer - convoy raider in norway, sorties in the Kara sea v soviet surface forces and convoys

Admiral Hipper - norway invasion, convoy raider

Blucher - norway invasion

Prinz Eugen - Bismarck breakout, channel dash, convoy raider

Karlsruhe - norway invasion

Koln - norway invasion, convoy raider

Nurnberg - mine layer/ Northern British Coast, baltic fleet

KM Destroyers

Z18 Hans Lüdemann - invasion of denmark

Z20 Karl Galster - mining operation in the Thames Estuary and Plymouth

Z32 - operations with baltic fleet

T27 - Operations in baltic as coastal patrol/escort

S Boats - patroled coastal areas in Baltic, English Channel

KM Auxiliaries

Nordmark - operations in Norway region 42-45

Atlantis - Broken from an Ice Jam in the kaiser-wilhelm canal (along with the aux cruisers Orion and Widder) by the WWI battleship Hessen, Atlantis started her voyage to the atlantic.  Under a norweigan disguise, she was inspected by various RAF aircraft and managed to outrun 2 british vessels through a very bad storm in the north sea and escaped into the atlantic via the arctic circle. Heres the link: http://www.bismarck-class.dk/hilfskreuzer/atlantis.html

KM Subs

U-510 - 4th Submarine flotilla operating out of Stettin
U-66 - 2nd Submarine flotilla operating out of Wilhelmshaven
U-47 - 7th Submarine flotilla operating out of Kiel, sank Royal Oak at Scapa flow
U-552 - 7th Submarine flotilla operating out of Kiel

German Air Wing - All German aircraft operated throughout the theater.

Ju87
Ju88
FW Kondor - Churchill  called them "the scourge of the atlantic"
Fi167 - built for Graf Zepplin, sent to norway
FW 190
BF109

Finish Units

Vainamoinen - winter war, coastal defense

Buffalo fighters - operated during the winter war

KM Units Not Allowed

ZG3 - Captured greek destroyer, only operated in med

Admiral Graf Spee - Left German waters on August 29, 1939.  Scuttled in Montevideo after battles with british surface vessals
Brigman

Thanks Sub I will add that to my master list, up top. Wink
sublime828

Here is some more intel on illustrious operating in the "Frozen Seas"

Tirpitz Strike
Six aircraft carriers, comprising fleet carriers Victorious and Illustrious plus four smaller vessels gathered for the strike and in pre-dawn darkness 42 Barracudas in two waves of 21 aircraft were flown off, supported by an eighty-strong fighter escort. Complete surprise was achieved by the first wave, however the second wave was forced to bomb blind through a heavy smoke screen a minute later.

Nevertheless Tirpitz received 15 direct hits from the armour-piercing 500lb and 1000lb bombs, resulting in a large fire amidships and 300 of her crew killed. Fleet Air Arm losses involved 3 Barracudas and one fighter. Following this initial raid further Barracuda strikes were made on Tirpitz from May to August 1944. By using a smoke screen Tirpitz escaped further damage, though a direct hit by a 1000lb bomb was secured in a raid on 24 August.

and the link:
http://www.suite101.com/content/f...-7--barracuda-and-firefly-a371445

I think that is enough to end that controversy......looks like illustrious is in
Very Happy  Very Happy

sub out
Brigman

List updated and formatted to include Germans and Finns.

Thanks again Sub!
sublime828

Here is the research I did for Dan when he added the lend-lease aircraft to CRN.  It should fit for us as well.  I just have to look a little further into where they operated.  The PBY's and B-24s both had squadrons based in GB.  Ill have to look into the mitchells.  I know the operated over 20 squadrons of them, I just don't recall where.

the Brits used the b-24 liberators (2,100 for the UK) and B-25mitchells (900 for the UK) in numbers, along with P40s( the uk operated 27 squadrons of them during the war), PBY's(over 30 squadrons among the UK nations)

thats it for me tonight, Ill hit it again 2-morow
P71

sublime828 wrote:
heres your illustrious confirmation brigs:

This information is located on this webpage (a great Royal Navy resource I might add Very Happy )

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-04CV-Illustrious.htm

That was a great catch Brigs, I never would have caught that.


I think you left out the actual op in your quote by accident, "July 1943 Joined Home Fleet and took part in offensive sweep off Norway with HM Aircraft carrier UNICORN. Three German reconnaissance aircraft were shot down. (Operation CAMERA)"

That is indeed an *excellent* resource for all of us as we all have UK fleets in our Clubs!
P71

Brigman wrote:
Fortunately the decision is not up to you. Wink

Seriously, go mind your own club.  I am working hard enough to get all this done without someone running around trying to poke holes in my work.  I'm making a good faith effort, not just fudging stuff.  None of us here are Naval Historians (that I know of).


Dude, your thread title said "help appreciated"!  Rolling Eyes Sorry if I was trying to keep the clubs with a little integrity, and obviously it wasn't an issue as sublime was able to find two other sources that spelled out the actual operations. I'll mind my own business then.
sublime828

P71 wrote:
sublime828 wrote:
heres your illustrious confirmation brigs:

This information is located on this webpage (a great Royal Navy resource I might add Very Happy )

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-04CV-Illustrious.htm

That was a great catch Brigs, I never would have caught that.


I think you left out the actual op in your quote by accident, "July 1943 Joined Home Fleet and took part in offensive sweep off Norway with HM Aircraft carrier UNICORN. Three German reconnaissance aircraft were shot down. (Operation CAMERA)"

That is indeed an *excellent* resource for all of us as we all have UK fleets in our Clubs!


It's a pretty awesome resource indeed!  I was pretty excited to find that one. It is absolutely crammed with information on the British fleet........and not just the big important ships.  Someone spent a lot of time on this one.
sublime828

P71 wrote:
Brigman wrote:
Fortunately the decision is not up to you. Wink

Seriously, go mind your own club.  I am working hard enough to get all this done without someone running around trying to poke holes in my work.  I'm making a good faith effort, not just fudging stuff.  None of us here are Naval Historians (that I know of).


Dude, your thread title said "help appreciated"!  Rolling Eyes Sorry if I was trying to keep the clubs with a little integrity, and obviously it wasn't an issue as sublime was able to find two other sources that spelled out the actual operations. I'll mind my own business then.


We appreciate the help P71, I think Brigs was just feeling like he was getting singled out a little even though you were only trying to help. No worries.  We were able to track down the intel we needed to back up his initial findings and uncovered some pretty good resources in the process.    Very Happy We appreciate the assistance.
sublime828

The list looks excellent Brigs, top notch.   all hail
Brigman

It could be said that I spent WAY too much time on this yesterday.
NeuralDream

Can't wait to watch your first friendly matches after you finish your list. A CFS Axis Vs. CFS Allies friendly match would be brilliant Very Happy.
sublime828

NeuralDream wrote:
Can't wait to watch your first friendly matches after you finish your list. A CFS Axis Vs. CFS Allies friendly match would be brilliant Very Happy.


Very Happy We're looking forward to getting our lists wrapped up. Not too much left to do here.  Brigs really stepped up to the plate and got cracking man I tell ya!  He did a ton of work.  ND - what do you think of our fleet composition so far?
NeuralDream

It looks great.
sublime828

NeuralDream wrote:
It looks great.
Very Happy
NeuralDream

I am preparing a map that shows the various clubs. Can you confirm which area your club covers exactly (the more detail the better for my map)? Is it simply the 50th parallel?
Solomiranthius

Hey all,

I withdraw my objections (although I still think that class limits should be a match level decision - not sure if that's been officially decided on yet or not). Been sick the last couple of days and didn't fully grasp the meaning behind the changes. I can clearly see the effort and care being put into this project, and I appreciate being able to learn more about our units and the units of other nations!

Thanks to all you CFS guys for putting this together, and thanks to ND, Dan and everyone else for taking this in a positive direction. Very Happy

Looking forward to the new leagues!
sublime828

Not a problem:  North Atlantic (greenland seas, Denmark Strait, English Channel etc) Arctic Ocean (Norwegian Sea, White Sea, Barents Sea, Kara Sea, Laptev Sea, East Siberian Sea) Inland seas(North Sea, Baltic Sea)

Pretty much the waters from the english Channel up.
NeuralDream

Did I get it right more or less?

Bull Halsey

could you add Club atlantic so i can see where you would label CA? Laughing
sublime828

NeuralDream wrote:
Did I get it right more or less?



That looks great ND!
NeuralDream

Bull Halsey wrote:
could you add Club atlantic so i can see where you would label CA? Laughing
Hi Bull, I don't know. Would CA overlap with CFS or would you take all the rest of the atlantic?

I think that P71 is right. A club Ceylon or Indian Ocean would probably be more interesting.
danaussie

NeuralDream wrote:
I am preparing a map that shows the various clubs. Can you confirm which area your club covers exactly (the more detail the better for my map)? Is it simply the 50th parallel?


We can put that in the Club House - Clubs Summary in The Wardroom ND to better illustrate what the Theatre Clubs are all about also in the Club Theatre League ruleset when we get that underway.

Sounds perfect Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
Bull Halsey

NeuralDream wrote:
Bull Halsey wrote:
could you add Club atlantic so i can see where you would label CA? Laughing
Hi Bull, I don't know. Would CA overlap with CFS or would you take all the rest of the atlantic

I think that P71 is right. A club Ceylon or Indian Ocean would probably be more interesting.

Club atlantic would only overlap to The Northern Atlantic.
danaussie

Club Atlantic and Club Frozen seas should overlap, RAAFFF and Club SoPac also overlap from the Indian Ocean to Australia.

....to the best of my understanding. Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
NeuralDream

danaussie wrote:
RAAFFF and Club SoPac also overlap from the Indian Ocean to Australia.

I am quite confused with RAAFFF. It looks like a special cause rather than theater club. The name refers only to the air force but their list of units allow all Australian ships. So, is it a national club or a special cause club? I don't think they are a theater club, as they don't allow non-Aussie ships (which makes sense of course based on the name).
P71

NeuralDream wrote:
danaussie wrote:
RAAFFF and Club SoPac also overlap from the Indian Ocean to Australia.

I am quite confused with RAAFFF. It looks like a special cause rather than theater club. The name refers only to the air force but their list of units allow all Australian ships. So, is it a national club or a special cause club? I don't think they are a theater club, as they don't allow non-Aussie ships (which makes sense of course based on the name).


RAAFFF was started as a special cause to get Australian Air into WaS. I have no idea how it even became a WaS Club, let alone a Theatre one.
sublime828

P71 wrote:
NeuralDream wrote:
danaussie wrote:
RAAFFF and Club SoPac also overlap from the Indian Ocean to Australia.

I am quite confused with RAAFFF. It looks like a special cause rather than theater club. The name refers only to the air force but their list of units allow all Australian ships. So, is it a national club or a special cause club? I don't think they are a theater club, as they don't allow non-Aussie ships (which makes sense of course based on the name).


RAAFFF was started as a special cause to get Australian Air into WaS. I have no idea how it even became a WaS Club, let alone a Theatre one.


maybe they can use it for the springboard for club ceylon
P71

Complete Order of Battle for all Arctic and Atlantic actions:

http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob...antic/index_OOB_WWII_Atlantic.htm
sublime828

Good link P71.  HOw we coming Brigs?  I think we're just about done right?  Just have to finish up our lend-lease air stuff and we should be good.  Then we can help Bull out with CA.
Brigman

Sorry, I got distracted today researching units to help out Club Med and Club Atlantic.  Embarassed

We should be just about done with official cards.  As I mentioned earlier, I really think we should make the Expanded Deck/ForumMini cards a separate list... lest it get HUGE.

We already discussed the US Hellcat lend/lease and decided not to use it.  What about the F4U Corsair?  They were used by the Brits in large numbers.

I understand we're not going to be using US warships, so I won't bother with those. Wink
sublime828

My stance on the corsair is pretty much the same as the hellcat, I really want to try and limit the bad boy fighters.......I'm also a little on the fence because most of the corsairs the British used were carrier based (I'm pretty sure but I would need to look into it a little more unless you have some solid evience to prove the were used more at land bases).........and we don't have a carrier based corsair.  Unless they had a significant impact (the british hellcats only downed 52 aircraft accross all theaters over the war) I still think we should leave them out. Whats your thoughts on this (any other CFS guys feel free to chime in!)  Im also thinking that the seafire (if we get it) will be the british answer for the other super-fighters.
Brigman

My thoughts are that I'm tired of going up against N1K1's with Martletts.  Wink

That said, let me look into the Corsair's use in UK service.  I'm not attached to it, but I know they (and the Hellcat) operated from UK carriers and bases.

I  hope we do get that Seafire, it would go a long way.  Or maybe we'll get a British carrier-based Corsair, then nobody can complain... legitimately anyway... people ALWAYS complain... Smile
firesdstny

My thought on the corsair is that until we know what's in set VI for sure, we don't need the bad-boy fighter (like the term Smile )

FW190s and Seafires should up the ante for us enough that it is unnecessary to add corsairs.

If you are facing N1K1's or Hellcat/Corsairs I do recommend the year limit restriction.  A N1K1 is 1944 like the Jill and scratching those 2 planes off the list makes the Brits competitive vs. the IJN at least.  I guess that if the FW/Seafire don't come or aren't up to par, maybe adding corsairs with a 1944 date on them would work for me.  Then you can fight Niki's with a corsair.  A British carrier corsair would of course be the best scenario, but then that would give the RN an advantage currently only held by the USN (Hellcat) and that's not likely to happen (negative SA's anyone?)
Brigman

Fair enough, I'll put the Corsair research on the back burner until we see what we get in Set VI.

I have come across some interesting US units that would be "legal" for CFS but we're not taking... but man... USS Iowa anyone?  Smile

No, really, I'm not advocating that.  But she did operate off the coast of Newfoundland at 49* in anticipation of a Tirpitz breakout into the Atlantic in 1943!  Smile
SWO_Daddy

Iowa and Washington in CFS anyone? Smile
sublime828

Nope Very Happy  We won't be adding any cheese today, the british BB's are just fine.  We're not going to add units just because we can (Richelieu, Dunkurque, Iowa, Massachusetts, etc).  It will take too much away from what our original design for it was.  I think the lend-lease US air for our Brits and Soviets is more than enough at this point and I would hope the rest of the theater clubs would follow suit. I'll take the flavor sir Laughing
sublime828

What about richmond for the soviets?  The Milwaukee (an omaha class) was loaned to the soviets for convoy duty?  Is there any dispute to that one?
P71

Dispute? No. Support? Yes! (Besides, it's probably going to come out sooner or later anyways.)
sublime828

I didn't think anybody would gripe too much about Richmond.......its probably the only way its ever going to see any playing time (in the soviet navy that is Laughing )
Brigman

I agree, but by the strict letter of the rules, as she's a cruiser, we can't use her, as USS Richmond herself never served in theater, operating in the Pacific.  

Do I find it ridiculous we can't use Richmond/Murmansk when we are voluntarily passing on Iowa, Mass., Richelieu, etc?  Yes I do...

There is a FN card for Murmansk which could be used with opponent's permission.
sublime828

we'll add it to our FN playable units then.
P71

Crazy new setup has unintended consequences, but the spirit of it is right I guess. The FN unit should be fine for now.

So when are we going to start doing some Convoy battles? I've been trying to figure out how to give the Defender a snowball's chance in...
Brigman

Updated to include Sweden, all of whose ships are available.
Bull Halsey

just give them the Rich! Very Happy im all for it! as president of CA i support this! xD
Brigman

Do we want to give the Soviets access to Vosper torpedo boats and US PT boats?  They had both via the Lend/Lease agreements and saw action.
Asbestos

Looks like your Brits might get Hellcats (for the same reason they get TBF-1s)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tungsten
P71

Brigman wrote:
Do we want to give the Soviets access to Vosper torpedo boats and US PT boats?  They had both via the Lend/Lease agreements and saw action.


I'd say yes to both.
Brigman

I put the torpedo boats down, but at Sublime's direction, did not include the Hellcat or Corsair.  Even though they served... we could "claim" USS Iowa and other American hulls too... we're going with our original club flavor over optimization.

Glad we get the TBF-1 though, as they did operate off of Fencer in theater. Smile
Brigman

Removed Krasni Krym from the active roster.  While built in the Baltic, all the records I can find of her war service are in the Black Sea.

That pretty much nixes any "OOB, Class Limit" battles for me with the Russians, not that I liked those anyway.  Rolling Eyes
Flakstruk

Brigman wrote:
I agree, but by the strict letter of the rules, as she's a cruiser, we can't use her, as USS Richmond herself never served in theater, operating in the Pacific.  

Do I find it ridiculous we can't use Richmond/Murmansk when we are voluntarily passing on Iowa, Mass., Richelieu, etc?  Yes I do...

There is a FN card for Murmansk which could be used with opponent's permission.


The richmond served in the aleutians, by the theater maps I've seen that falls on yours and the Richmond should be available.
Brigman

Subby?

Should we include the USS Richmond as part of our Soviet build, meant to proxy for Murmansk?

Or just stick with the FN card for Murmansk but require opponent's permission?
sublime828

flak is right, add the richmond as Murmansk.

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