Archive for Axis & Allies ForuMINI Specialised in the World War II Axis & Allies Miniatures and War At Sea Games
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Count_Ciano
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BB Main Gunnery....Possible Base Stats?Looking at the cards of 15 inch gunned BB's, it appears the possible "base" stats are determined this way:
Range 0-1 = Gun Caliber
Range 2 = 90 % of Gun Caliber (decimals rounded up or down)
Range 3 = 80 % of Gun Caliber (decimals rounded up or down)
Using this little formula, I came up with the following values for BB main guns for 11 inch to 18 inch:
Calober Range 0-1 Range 2 Range 3
18 inch 18 16 15
16 inch 16 15 13
15 inch 15 14 12
14 inch 14 13 11
13 inch* 13 12 10
12 inch 12 11 10
11 inch 11 10 9
* 12.6 inch was included in 13 inch for simplicity's sake
Now, I'm obviously assuming that Wizard's figures were arrived at with modifiers, but I do believe this is the "base" formula they worked with. It seems to fit, anyway.
Just a little theory of mine. If nothing else, it's a possible guideline for designing custom cards for the big boys. 
edit: forgot 12 inch guns 
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NeuralDream
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This may help you:
9x460mm/45 -> 18/18/16/15 (Yamato)
9x406mm/50 -> 18/18/17/16 (Iowa)
9x406mm/45 -> 17/17/16/14 (Massachussets, Washington) & 16/16/15/13 (Rodney)
9x380mm -> 15/15/13/11 (Littorio)
8x380mm -> 15/15/14/12 (Richelieu, Hood, Bismarck, Warspite) & 15/15/14/13 (Tirpitz)
4x380mm -> 12/12/11/9 (Jean Bart)
12x356mm -> 15/15/14/11 (Tennessee) & 13/12/11/11+S.A. (Yamashiro)
10x356mm -> 15/15/13/12 (King George V)
8x356mm -> 14/14/13/11 (Kongo)
13x305mm -> 13/12/11/10 (Cesare)
9x280mm -> 13/13/12/11 (Scharnhorst)
6x280mm -> 12/12/11/10 (Graf Spee)
10x203mm -> 10/10/9/7 (Myoko) & 9/9/8/7 (Salt Lake City)
9x203mm -> 9/8/8/6 (San Francisco)
8x203mm -> 9/9/8/6 (Tone, Zara) & 9/9/8/7 (Kent, Hipper)
8(4)x203mm -> 8/8/7/6 (Saratoga)
6(3)x203mm -> 7/7/6/5 (Akagi)
15x152mm -> 9/8/8/7+SA (Boise)
12x152mm -> 8/8/8/7 (Cleveland) & 8/7/7/6 (Jamaica)
9x152mm -> 8/7/6/6 (Gloire) & Koln (8/7/6/5)
16(8)x 152mm -> 7/7/6/6 (G. Zeppelin)
8x152mm -> 7/7/6/5 (Ajax, Sydney) & 7/7/6/4 (D' Aosta)
7x152mm -> 7/6/6/5 (De Ruyter)
6x152mm -> 6/6/5/5 (Yahagi)
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Count_Ciano
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| NeuralDream wrote: | This may help you:
9x460mm/45 -> 18/18/16/15 (Yamato)
9x406mm/50 -> 18/18/17/16 (Iowa)
9x406mm/45 -> 17/17/16/14 (Massachussets, Washington) & 16/16/15/13 (Rodney)
9x380mm -> 15/15/13/11 (Littorio)
8x380mm -> 15/15/14/12 (Richelieu, Hood, Bismarck, Warspite) & 15/15/14/13 (Tirpitz)
4x380mm -> 12/12/11/9 (Jean Bart)
12x356mm -> 15/15/14/11 (Tennessee) & 13/12/11/11+S.A. (Yamashiro)
10x356mm -> 15/15/13/12 (King George V)
8x356mm -> 14/14/13/11 (Kongo)
13x305mm -> 13/12/11/10 (Cesare)
9x280mm -> 13/13/12/11 (Scharnhorst)
6x280mm -> 12/12/11/10 (Graf Spee)
10x203mm -> 10/10/9/7 (Myoko) & 9/9/8/7 (Salt Lake City)
9x203mm -> 9/8/8/6 (San Francisco)
8x203mm -> 9/9/8/6 (Tone, Zara) & 9/9/8/7 (Kent, Hipper)
8(4)x203mm -> 8/8/7/6 (Saratoga)
6(3)x203mm -> 7/7/6/5 (Akagi)
15x152mm -> 9/8/8/7+SA (Boise)
12x152mm -> 8/8/8/7 (Cleveland) & 8/7/7/6 (Jamaica)
9x152mm -> 8/7/6/6 (Gloire) & Koln (8/7/6/5)
16(8)x 152mm -> 7/7/6/6 (G. Zeppelin)
8x152mm -> 7/7/6/5 (Ajax, Sydney) & 7/7/6/4 (D' Aosta)
7x152mm -> 7/6/6/5 (De Ruyter)
6x152mm -> 6/6/5/5 (Yahagi) |
They were helpful, thank you! 
It was from the "stock" card stats that led me to speculate on possible "vanilla" values for each gun caliber as a point of reference for modders to either:
A). Design their own cards using their own modifiers, or
B). Create main gunnery stats for ships that aren't in the game yet.
Let's say I want to do a card for the H-39 BB. And I decide to use navyweaps.com as my source. For the most part, Tirpitz' stats should suffice, except for the main battery. So, I'll use these 4 categories determine modifiers, as an example:
Rate Of Fire (rounds/minute) 1.5 or less =-1, 1.6 to 2.9 = 0, 3+ - +1
Number of Guns 1-2 - -5, 3-5 = -3, 6-7 = -1, 8-9 = 0, 10+ = +1
Muzzle Velocity 825 mps + = +1 at range 2 and less
Max. Penetration 30" + = +1
Okay, so we look up H-39's main guns at navyweaps.com, and see:
Rate of Fire = 2, no modifier
Number of Guns = 8, no modifier
Muzzle Velocity = 810 mps, no modifier
Max. Penetration = 31.7 ", +1 modifier
Total modifiers= +1
So, using the 16" gun vanilla stats, 16-16-15-13, and applying the +1 modifier, we end up with Main Battery stats of 17-17-16-14, same as Washington/Massechussetts stats. Looks like what Wizard's would come up with, or at least very close.
That's my warped thought process at work.
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lotharlutjens
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Ciano, personally I think your thoughts ARE how they came up with base stats and then they just modified them here or there to most peoples expectations, it is the only logic I can find in how they arrived at some figures. ND's list is right, but I still believe your idea is at the heart of the formula. Ciao !
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Count_Ciano
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| lotharlutjens wrote: | | Ciano, personally I think your thoughts ARE how they came up with base stats and then they just modified them here or there to most peoples expectations, it is the only logic I can find in how they arrived at some figures. ND's list is right, but I still believe your idea is at the heart of the formula. Ciao ! |
Thanks! That's what I was "shooting" for! Ciao! 
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Count_Ciano
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Actually, just for the fun of it, I'm gonna do a "navyweaps" mod with my speculative base stats just to see how they compare to Wizard's stats. I'm going to use the following categories to determine modifiers:
Rate Of Fire (rounds per minute): less than 2 = -1, 2-2.9 = 0, 3+ = +1
Max. Penetration 30" + = +1
Muzzle Velocity 2700fps/823mps= +.5 (+1 up to range 2)
Number of guns: 1-2 = -5, 3-4 = -3, 6-7 = -1, 8-9 = 0, 10+ = +1
| NeuralDream wrote: | This may help you:
9x460mm/45 -> 18/18/16/15 (Yamato)
9x406mm/50 -> 18/18/17/16 (Iowa)
9x406mm/45 -> 17/17/16/14 (Massachussets, Washington) & 16/16/15/13 (Rodney)
9x380mm -> 15/15/13/11 (Littorio)
8x380mm -> 15/15/14/12 (Richelieu, Hood, Bismarck, Warspite) & 15/15/14/13 (Tirpitz)
4x380mm -> 12/12/11/9 (Jean Bart)
12x356mm -> 15/15/14/11 (Tennessee) & 13/12/11/11+S.A. (Yamashiro)
10x356mm -> 15/15/13/12 (King George V)
8x356mm -> 14/14/13/11 (Kongo)
13x305mm -> 13/12/11/10 (Cesare)
9x280mm -> 13/13/12/11 (Scharnhorst)
6x280mm -> 12/12/11/10 (Graf Spee)
10x203mm -> 10/10/9/7 (Myoko) & 9/9/8/7 (Salt Lake City)
9x203mm -> 9/8/8/6 (San Francisco)
8x203mm -> 9/9/8/6 (Tone, Zara) & 9/9/8/7 (Kent, Hipper)
8(4)x203mm -> 8/8/7/6 (Saratoga)
6(3)x203mm -> 7/7/6/5 (Akagi)
15x152mm -> 9/8/8/7+SA (Boise)
12x152mm -> 8/8/8/7 (Cleveland) & 8/7/7/6 (Jamaica)
9x152mm -> 8/7/6/6 (Gloire) & Koln (8/7/6/5)
16(8)x 152mm -> 7/7/6/6 (G. Zeppelin)
8x152mm -> 7/7/6/5 (Ajax, Sydney) & 7/7/6/4 (D' Aosta)
7x152mm -> 7/6/6/5 (De Ruyter)
6x152mm -> 6/6/5/5 (Yahagi) |
18" Base stats 18 18 16 15
Yamato, Musashi(Japan):
ROF : about 1.5rpm -1
Max Penetration 34" +1
Number of Guns: 9 0
Muzzle Velocity 2559 fps 0
Total modifiers 0
Net stats 18 18 16 15
16" Base stats 16 16 15 13
Iowa, Missouri (USA):
ROF: 2 rpms 0
Max Penetration 32.6", +1
Number of guns 9 0
Muzzle Velocity 2425 fps 0
Total Modifiers +1
Net Stats 17 17 16 14
Washington, Massechussetts(USA):
ROF: 2 rpms 0
Max. Penetration: 29.74" 0
Number of Guns 9 0
Muzzle Velocity 2300 fps 0
Total Modifiers 0
Net Stats 16 16 15 13
Rodney (UK)
ROF 1.5 rpms -1
Max Penetration: less than 30" 0
Number of Guns: 9 0
Muzzle Velocity 2586 fps 0
Total Modifiers -1
Net Stats 15 15 14 12
15" Base Stats : 15 15 14 12
Hood, Warspite (UK)
ROF: 2 rpms 0
Max Penetration 27.1" 0
Number of Guns 8 0
Muzzle Velocity 2458 fps 0
Total Modifiers 0
Net Stats 15 15 14 12
Richeliue (France)
ROF ; 1.2 rpms -1
Max Penetration 29.43" 0
Number of Guns 8 0
Muzzle Velocity 2723 fps +.5
Total Modifiers -.5
Net Stats 15 15 14 11
Jean Bart (France)
ROF ; 1.2 rpms -1
Max Penetration 29.43" 0
Number of Guns 4 -3
Muzzle Velocity 2723 fps +.5
Total Modifiers -3.5
Net Stats 12 12 11 9
Bismarck, Tirpitz (Germany)
ROF: 2.5 rpms 0
Max Penetration 29.23 " 0
Number of Guns 8 0
Muzzle Velocity 2690 fps 0
Total Modifiers 0
Net Stats 15 15 14 12
Littorio, Vittorio Veneto (Italy)
ROF: 1.3 rpms -1
Max Penetration 32" +1
Number of Guns 9 0
Muzzle Velocity 2789 fps = +.5
Total Modifiers +.5
Net Stats 16 16 15 12
14" Guns Base Stats 14 14 13 11
Tennesee, California (USA)
ROF: 1.75 rpms -1
Max Penetration 28.03" 0
Number of Guns 12 +1
Muzzle Velocity 2700 fps. +.5
Total Modifiers +.5
Net Stats 15 15 14 11
King George V (UK)
ROF 2 rpms 0
Max Penetration 26.9" 0
Number of Guns 10 +1
Muzzle Velocity 2400 fps
Total Modifiers +1
Net Stats 15 15 14 12
Kongo, Haruna (Japan)
ROF: 2 rpms 0
Max Penetration Not Avaliable 0
Number of Guns 8 0
Muzzle Velocity 2543 fps 0
Total Modifiers 0
Net Stats 14 14 13 11
Yamashiro (Japan)
ROF: 2 rpms 0
Max Penetration Not Avaliable 0
Number of Guns 12 +1
Muzzle Velocity 2543 fps 0
Total Modifiers +1
Net Stats 15 15 14 12
13" guns 13 13 12 10
Dunkerque (France)
ROF: 2 rpms 0
Max Penetration 28" 0
Number of Guns 8 0
Muzzle Velocity 2854 fps +.5
Total Modifiers +.5
Net Stats 14 14 13 10
12", 12.6" (for simplicity's sake!) 12 12 11 10
Cesare (Italy)
ROF: 2 rpms 0
Max. Penetration not available 0
Number of Guns 10 +1
Muzzle Velocity 2723 fps +.5
Total Modifiers +1.5
Net Stats: 14 14 13 11
11 " guns 11 11 10 9
Scharnhorst(Germany)
ROF 3.5 rpms +1
Max Penetration 23.79" 0
Number of Guns 9 0
Muzzle Velocity 2920 fps +.5
Total Modifiers +1.5
Net Stats 13 13 12 10
Graf Spee, Scheer(Germany)
ROF 3.5 rpms +1
Max Penetration 23.79" 0
Number of Guns 6 -1
Muzzle Velocity 2920 fps +.5
Total Modifiers =.+5
Net Stats 12 12 11 9
So, it seems most of the figures from the "navyweaps" modifiers came pretty close to Wizard's stats. The most noticeable differences seem to be the 16 inch gun stats, which were lower in the Navyweaps mod, but with the US ships, if you were to take the Cleaveland's Radar Directed Gunfire SA and just add it straight into the stats, you would come up with the exact same figures Wizard's did. Rodney was "punished" for it's slow rate of fire, although I do recall Richard Baker admitting on the old boards that maybe he gave Rodney's 16 inch guns "a little too much respect".
Now, for Nationalities, again everyone seemed to come up fairly close, with the exception of the Italians. One of the ways I think they came up with Cesare's stats was to take the "base" 13" stats and fused them with the "base" 12 inch stats to come up with the 12.6" gun (13 12 11 10), with no modifiers.
Littorio and Vittorio Veneto came up very different from Wizard's stats. Something that I found rather peculiar since every other nations stats were either a perfect match or very close to "Team Baker's" figures.
Either way, it was fun to see how close my overly simplistic (and somewhat arbitrary) model could come to Wizards, and surprising to see how close it actually did! Ciao!
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Tiornu
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I suggect you forget Rate of Fire except in exceptional circumstances because it is basically meaningless. You will be assigning arbitrary figures that don't reflect any useful reality. Why assign Yamato an RoF of 1.5? Why not 2? Both are correct. Why give the Scharnhorst's such a high figure? During the battle off Norway, Renown's six guns were able to fire almost as many shells as the Germans' eighteen guns. In fact, there is no such thing as a set RoF for these guns. It depends on the circumstances.
It's not possible to rate penetration without a common system of calculation. If Littorio penetrates 32 inches of armor...what kind of armor? At what angle? Some navies made sacrifices to maximize deck penetration or to better handle extreme angles.
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