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danaussie

Attention all Theatre Club Presidents!

Hi guys,

This is what ND has asked me to ask you, there needs to be an overhaul of all Theatre Clubs, theatre of opperations guidelines and theatre units, this is to make the Theatre Clubs true to their respective theatres of opperations.

For instance, this will require Club Frozen Seas to accurately define where their theatre of opperations are, if your focus is in North Atlantic, Barents Sea and Baltic this needs to be clearly defined and entered into you Club HQ.

If Club South Pacific is indeed in the South Pacific it needs to define its theatre of opperations as in the South Pacific only.

If Club Med's theatre of opperations is in the Mediterranean Sea it must declare this in its Club HQ.

Likewise for Club RAAFFF that is now a Theatre Club, Raev will need to tell us what areas that his ABDA forces opperate in, you can all title this as you "Theatre of Opperations".

Second you will all need to make a list of all the units that opperated in these theatres, this is probably the most difficult task, and it will require alot of research, but this has been asked of you, I assume that this is to guarantee that all the units you are using are true to the respective theatres you are opperating in. You can all title this as your "Theatre Units" in your Club HQs.

The Clubs that need to do this are:

Club Atlantic??? (Proposed new Theatre Club)
Club Frozen Seas
Club Med
Club RAAFFF
Club South Pacific

There is no time limit on when this needs to be done but we may not start any competition until this is done, other directives have been given to all Clubs that will be discussed in another thread.

Lets Overhaul!!! and get this done right. Hey it could even be fun. Laughing

Thank you guys Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan


[edit by ND: To avoid further misunderstandings, see below:]All WAS units took part in one operation or another. The question you have to ask for each one is:

_____

    - Did this specific WAS battleship / this specific WAS carrier / this specific WAS cruiser / this type of aircraft / this class of subs / this class of destroyers / this type of torpedo boats operate at any point during the war in my theatre of operations?

    If the answer is yes, then you can have it in your list and you can use as many of this unit as the class limit (or whatever houserule you agree with your opponent).

______
P71

Quote:
This is what ND has asked me to ask you, there needs to be an overhaul of all Theatre Clubs, theatre of opperations guidelines and theatre units, this is to make the Theatre Clubs true to their respective theatres of operations.


Sounds good! A helpful tip might be to include the historical battles that were fought in your respective theatres.

Quote:
If Club South Pacific is indeed in the South Pacific it needs to define its theatre of opperations as in the South Pacific only.


Our HQ Page already says as much. We even list out the specific battles.

Quote:
Likewise for Club RAAFFF that is now a Theatre Club, Raev will need to tell us what areas that his ABDA forces opperate in, you can all title this as you "Theatre of Operations".


Um, Dan, can you please clarify this? RAEVSKI has stated himself in multiple public threads that his club does NOT include ABDA. Why are you insisting that it does?

Quote:
Second you will all need to make a list of all the units that opperated in these theatres, this is probably the most difficult task, and it will require alot of research, but this has been asked of you, I assume that this is to guarantee that all the units you are using are true to the respective theatres you are operating in.


In some cases it's easier to just list the units that cannot be used, like we have with the IJN (Agaki, Kaga, and Soryu in this example).

Quote:
The Clubs that need to do this are:

Club Atlantic??? (Proposed new Theatre Club)
Club Frozen Seas
Club Med
Club RAAFFF
Club South Pacific


Again, I don't think a Club Atlantic is warranted. CFS already covers the North Atlantic and the South only had 1 battle (River Plate). I maintain that the 5th Theatre Club spot should be maintained for the only un-represented theatre, the Indian Ocean. Club Ceylon could include all of the Indian Ocean raids, Suez, Alexandria, the Black Sea, and the far eastern Med such as Greece. Then everything is represented (North Atlantic/Baltic/English Channel by CFS; Gibralter/Med by Club Med; Eastern Med/Black Sea/Alexandria/Indian Ocean by Ceylon; South Pacific by SoPac; and Central Pacific by RAAFFF).

And lastly, on the "other clubs" notes... Obviously we are all welcome to Grandfathering in torpy's Club Dutch and further clubs will have to be stand alone fleets or be able to be with minor allies (such as CFS's Russian/Lend Lease setup). What is going to happen to the 2 non-clubs (Club Rocket and Club Sandwich)?
Bull Halsey

club atlantic was to see what dan would say about another multinayional club. i never thought dan would put it up though Laughing
danaussie

Bull Halsey wrote:
club atlantic was to see what dan would say about another multinayional club. i never thought dan would put it up though Laughing


I'll just answer this P71 then I'll get to your questions mate, one of NDs primary concerns was that we did not have enough Theatre Clubs to warrant a two tier competition.

I agve him a list of the Clubs that would be in this category also listing the potential new Club Atlantic (if thats what Bull wants to call it), I think there is room for this Club and I would be certainly torn between joining this Club or CFS as my Theatre Club if it were to launch. I'll wait to see if Bull gets his membership requirement and if needs be I will join it to assist with the Membership requirement.

So in short I think there is indeed room for a potential Club Atlantic.

Its going to be a busy day. Laughing

Cheers guys Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
Bull Halsey

Sweet! Very Happy once i get a a draft ofmy stuff ill set it up.
danaussie

Bull Halsey wrote:
Sweet! Very Happy once i get a a draft ofmy stuff ill set it up.


Ok no hurry mate, do you know where to find the protocol for launch Bull?

Dan Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy
sublime828

five theater clubs is plenty enough to merit a competition IMHO.  And it keeps both club camps happy.  As far as culling out units to match theater-specific clubs, thats fine too......but to keep things from being in the micro-managing level, i think the focus of theater specific units should be on the capitol ships (BB's, CV's) that operated in that particular theater.
Bull Halsey

Let me ask CFS something, would Club Atlantic be a contridiction to CFS? if they think CA would be a problem to them then i wont do it. but id rather have CFS tell me if this would cause problems.
danaussie

Quote:
Um, Dan, can you please clarify this? RAEVSKI has stated himself in multiple public threads that his club does NOT include ABDA. Why are you insisting that it does?


I'll answer this one first for you P71, as far as I know Raevski advised me when he joined the Club House that he would be taking ABDA forces, hell I even made him an avatar with the flags for these nations on it.

So clearly there is some confusion on this which I will take up with him by private message, I just want to know firstly if he wants to be part of the Theatre League and then what "Theatre of Opperations" he will be covering, then of course what units he will be taking. Same thing I'm asking all you other Theatre guys.

Dont worry mate I'll get to the bottom of it, just be patient there is alot of communications to write today.

Cheers P71 Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
danaussie

Quote:
Our HQ Page already says as much. We even list out the specific battles.


Thats brilliant mate I hope all other Theatre Clubs will do this also, not only for League protocol but also makes for an interesting read.

Quote:
In some cases it's easier to just list the units that cannot be used, like we have with the IJN (Agaki, Kaga, and Soryu in this example).


Yes it is but that's not what has been asked of us. I know its alot of work guys, but this is what is required of you, I understand why as well this is to ensure that only units that opperated in your particular sphere are covered and nothing else. On the upside I am really excited about it because it add an interesting dimension and flavour to the Theatre Clubs and makes them more attractive.

I'm really torn between two clubs now one I have wnated to join since they formed but was unble to because of the current status quo and the other beacause it more suits my style. If indeed you want to call it a style, losing 6 to 1 aint much of a style. Embarassed  Laughing

Quote:
Again, I don't think a Club Atlantic is warranted. CFS already covers the North Atlantic and the South only had 1 battle (River Plate). I maintain that the 5th Theatre Club spot should be maintained for the only un-represented theatre, the Indian Ocean. Club Ceylon could include all of the Indian Ocean raids, Suez, Alexandria, the Black Sea, and the far eastern Med such as Greece. Then everything is represented (North Atlantic/Baltic/English Channel by CFS; Gibralter/Med by Club Med; Eastern Med/Black Sea/Alexandria/Indian Ocean by Ceylon; South Pacific by SoPac; and Central Pacific by RAAFFF).


I believe we have already covered this in another thread mate, if a Club Ceylon is proposed it will be given due consideration, but it, as yet, has not been proposed, Club Atlantic has. I agree that there may be room for this Club Ceylon at a later date we shall just have to play that one by ear mate. Never say never is where I'm at with this one. Lets just see how it all works with the 5 Theatre Clubs.

Quote:
What is going to happen to the 2 non-clubs (Club Rocket and Club Sandwich)?


Well Club Sandwich was proposed as a jest as far as I am concerned, they just wanted to be recognised to be able to have conversations here at the Club House. This is still the case but they are unable to compete in the Club League something they themselves agreed to.

As for both clubs niether of them meet Club House protocol for membership as well as other requirements and niether of them are recognised by the forum as official usergroups. Niether of them may compete in either the National League or Theatre League until they meet all protocol requirements for Club formation. To be perfectly honest I am still at a loss to even know what Team Rocket is all about, but I think thats the way Angry wants it...the guy slays me honestly. Laughing

I think thats it mate

Cheers for now Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
angryhydralisk

danaussie wrote:
To be perfectly honest I am still at a loss to even know what Team Rocket is all about, but I think thats the way Angry wants it...the guy slays me honestly. Laughing


Team Rocket is a club of fun randomness we pick unusual fleets that would hardly ever been played by anyone else (eg 10 antilopes)
when you play Team Rocket you pick the fleet but you cant know anything on it not even axis/allied
My club is for Fun period
(and stealing all the Pokemon  Twisted Evil )
Bull Halsey

DONT TAKE MY PICKACHU NAMED ZIPPY!! Laughing anyway! club atlantic would be from the Denmark straits to South Africa. thats where my Text book says the atlantic starts and ends Very Happy
danaussie

angryhydralisk wrote:
danaussie wrote:
To be perfectly honest I am still at a loss to even know what Team Rocket is all about, but I think thats the way Angry wants it...the guy slays me honestly. Laughing


Team Rocket is a club of fun randomness we pick unusual fleets that would hardly ever been played by anyone else (eg 10 antilopes)
when you play Team Rocket you pick the fleet but you cant know anything on it not even axis/allied
My club is for Fun period
(and stealing all the Pokemon  Twisted Evil )


Soooo...I'm trying to work out where that fits into either the National League or Theatre League competitions Angry. If you guys want to keep playing unofficial Club Challenge Matches thats fine by me. But if you however want to be recognized as an official Club Leagues Club you must meet the official criteria mate, its the same for everybody.

I have no problem with a Club just for fun brother if thats what it is.

Cheers mate Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
Brigman

Um, okay, now I have some concerns that this will bring badness. Sad

Not to be doom and gloom, but if we're going to go back and micromanage exact units (as opposed to national builds) that clubs can use, that kills a lot of the interest in the club for me.

Some of us, who have been in a club for months, have favorite builds that will now be made illegal?

Will I be able to use Kent but not Exeter, for example?  Tirpitz but not Gneisenau?  What about DDs, subs, sisters that are not in the game but are commonly represented by a ship that is?

This possibility concerns me muchly.  Shocked
Bull Halsey

i dont think that should be an issue. i think CFS can keep their Ships and With maybe Club atlantic, can have some of the same ships. as far as im concerned, CA has limitied German Capital ships.
danaussie

Brigman wrote:
Um, okay, now I have some concerns that this will bring badness. Sad

Not to be doom and gloom, but if we're going to go back and micromanage exact units (as opposed to national builds) that clubs can use, that kills a lot of the interest in the club for me.

Some of us, who have been in a club for months, have favorite builds that will now be made illegal?

Will I be able to use Kent but not Exeter, for example?  Tirpitz but not Gneisenau?  What about DDs, subs, sisters that are not in the game but are commonly represented by a ship that is?

This possibility concerns me muchly.  Shocked


Its difficult to answer these questions without a full understanding of each theatre of opperations, I would need a Degree in Naval Histrory to do that. This is what has been asked of us, from my understanding the requirement calls for historicaly accurate theatre Clubs. If that kills some interest then that is the way it will have to be, nobody wants to loose members though Brig because of a few guideline changes.

I knew this morning that we were not going to be able to keep everyone happy as we make these changes but this is what has been asked from us, and so we will do the best we can to reach consensus for the sake of the Club House and for the sake of the Theatre Clubs within it. The ulternative was worse.

Members will be free to leave if they dont like the set-up but please Brig give it a chance to happen and see where it leads us. Sometimes restrictions make gaming alot more interesting.

Cheers mate Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
Brigman

I will see how things shape up then, did not mean to give you grief Dan, you guys are all doing a great job.

Just hate to see the Club I've enjoyed changed, but I guess that's life.

EDIT: I dearly hope that this is not going to turn out to be a veiled attempt to take all "fantasy" units out of play...

I know this "historical" bent is taking sway but let's not forget this is a game and not an historical simulation...
sublime828

Dont worry brigs, I am for the fantasy units, they are as much a part of the game as any other piece.  As far as CFS is concerned...very little with the soviets and germans are going to change......it was really the only theater where they had any significant engagements.  Our British forces on the other hand are probably going to change a little bit.  No worries bud.

I am pretty adamant about keeping our soviet/polish options they way they are.  It is one of the unique options in our club and historically incorrect or not, it makes the soviets more competitive anf allows the poles to make it into matches.

sub out
danaussie

Brigman wrote:
I will see how things shape up then, did not mean to give you grief Dan, you guys are all doing a great job.

Just hate to see the Club I've enjoyed changed, but I guess that's life.

EDIT: I dearly hope that this is not going to turn out to be a veiled attempt to take all "fantasy" units out of play...

I know this "historical" bent is taking sway but let's not forget this is a game and not an historical simulation...


No not at all mate, just doing my best to answer all the questions with very little to go on myself. No grief taken mate.

For the record I would like to say that I want Fantasy Ships as an option in the League Competitions as well it is up to the opponent to deny the use of these if they so wish.

I guess the only question then to ask in relation to the Sovyetskiy Soyuz is "where" they were proposed to be built that would let us know what theatre they would appear in. I dont know that much about it but I would be thinking either Leningrad or Arkhangelsk would that not be correct? Either way its in Frozen Seas territory.

But I may be getting ahead of myself again. Embarassed

Dan Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy
Asbestos

Ugh... This will be a pain.

I think it goes without saying that Club Med is, you know, in the Mediterranean.

At least mine is relatively easy...

France: All good (Actually I guess not Bearn? and you might be limited in Lamottes you can bring)
Italy: Duh
Greece: Ditto
Germany: ZG3, S-boats, U-boats (do I need to know types?)
UK: Um... I think everything (or sisters of everything) at some point during the war.
danaussie

Asbestos wrote:
Ugh... This will be a pain.

I think it goes without saying that Club Med is, you know, in the Mediterranean.

At least mine is relatively easy...

France: All good (Actually I guess not Bearn? and you might be limited in Lamottes you can bring)
Italy: Duh
Greece: Ditto
Germany: ZG3, S-boats, U-boats (do I need to know types?)
UK: Um... I think everything (or sisters of everything) at some point during the war.


Thanks Asbestos....that was my good buddy Asbestos ladies and gentleman....a little humour is always welcome. Laughing

Cheers mate Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
Asbestos

For the Dutch/Commonwealth minors I already limited them.

Dutch, for sure, had subs in the Med at some point.
Australia was certainly in the Med, but I guess I have to update it so only HMAS Sydney is available.

If I check the OOB for Torch/Husky I'm sure I'll come up with a silly amount of US ships. So far, since we already limit it to cruisers or DDs only, the most significant thing I can think of is that there were no Atlantas in the Med.
danaussie

Asbestos wrote:
For the Dutch/Commonwealth minors I already limited them.

Dutch, for sure, had subs in the Med at some point.
Australia was certainly in the Med, but I guess I have to update it so only HMAS Sydney is available.

If I check the OOB for Torch/Husky I'm sure I'll come up with a silly amount of US ships. So far, since we already limit it to cruisers or DDs only, the most significant thing I can think of is that there were no Atlantas in the Med.


Cheers mate, thank you. Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
NeuralDream

Don't shoot Danaussie for this new research requirement. That's my suggestion, so direct flak to me for this.

Next to each unit allowed, add a brief note explaining where it operated. A name of a battle or type of operation (eg convoy escort) would do just fine.

For torpedo boats, auxiliaries, subs, destroyers and aircraft, consider them as classes. If that class of uboat operated in your theatre, you are good. No need to prove it was the specific uboat or the specific type of zeke, for example. For cruisers, carriers and battleships, you need to prove that the specific ones operated there (not just another one in their class).

I know it is not easy, but it is very valuable and will be fun. All clubs have 1-2 keen researchers and we also have a research section in the forum, full of people who love doing this kind of stuff. It doesn't have to be the presidents doing this. Clubs are about cooperation and genuine interest in a specific theater of operations.

Regarding fantasy units, add them as a separate category in your list, as long as it makes sense that they would operate in your club's theater.

To answer the CFS concern, I am afraid you are right that this means that you may not be able to field all the units you could before, but that's the same for all clubs.

But first, everyone clearly describe your geographical remit. We want as little overlap as possible.
Brigman

And yet we were assured that existing clubs would not be losing units during any restructuring, back before Dan went on holiday...  Sad

What about sisters?  For example, the HMS Victorious operated in the Norwegian Campaigns, but the HMS Illustrious did not, operating primarily in the Med, Indian Ocean, and off of Africa.  What about ships that have sisters that are not yet in the game, but are included via class limits?  Can we use them?  

Example, if (hypothetically) HMS Rodney did not operate in the north (she did) but HMS Nelson did operate in the north, would we be able to use the HMS Rodney for the HMS Nelson (which is not yet in the game, but allowed under class limits via Rodney)?

Lastly... where should we post this info?  Here, or in our clubhouse threads?
NeuralDream

Brigman wrote:
For example, the HMS Victorious operated in the Norwegian Campaigns, but the HMS Illustrious did not, operating primarily in the Med, Indian Ocean, and off of Africa.

Victorious would be a CFS and Illustrious a Club Med unit then.
Quote:
Example, if (hypothetically) HMS Rodney did not operate in the north (she did) but HMS Nelson did operate in the north, would we be able to use the HMS Rodney for the HMS Nelson (which is not yet in the game, but allowed under class limits via Rodney)?

Nope, you wouldn't.
Quote:
Lastly... where should we post this info?  Here, or in our clubhouse threads?

Better in a new thread, so that you can discuss about this before you add them in one of the first posts of your clubhouse's hq thread.
Brigman

I really must object to this.  Normally, you could take two Rodneys (for example) because of class limits.  Now saying you can only take one, or saying you can't take any if the class limit is met but the particular printed hull didn't serve...
Brigman

How would it work for a ship with a class limit of 4, that all served in the appropriate theater, but only 1 is printed?  Example, Warspite.  She served in the Norwegian Campaign and is good CFS material, but has 3 sisters (none of which are yet in the game). Are we abandoning class limits now and just saying "one of each unit"?  

I guess if Javelin served in the theater but Jaguar didn't, we can't use more than one J-class destroyer then?

Frankly, this will make the nations unplayable or so predictable as to kill any fun factor whatsoever.
NeuralDream

Brigman wrote:
I really must object to this.  Normally, you could take two Rodneys (for example) because of class limits.  Now saying you can only take one, or saying you can't take any if the class limit is met but the particular printed hull didn't serve...
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. You can get both Rodneys if Rodney served there, but none if Nelson (a ship we don't have in WAS) served there but not Rodney.

That's only for carriers, cruisers and battleships.

For all the rest, it doesn't matter which unit served as long as one of its class did serve there. So, it doesn't matter if Javelin itself served there. Jaguar would be enough to allow all Javelins to be used.

(I think you replied before I finished editing my post with these clarifications: http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/sutra654146.php#654146)


To makes things as clear as possible, just answer this question for each unit:

    - Did this battleship, this carrier, this cruiser, this type of aircraft, this class of subs, this class of destroyers, this type of torpedo boats operate at any point during the war in my theatre of operations?

If the answer is yes, then you can have it in your list and you can use as many of this as the class limit (or whatever houserule you agree with your opponent).
Brigman

I have started a thread with some research I've been working on regarding our units from the UK for CFS.  Thanks for the above clarifications.  I had indeed replied before seeing your edited post.  Sorry!

Now let me make sure I understand the limitations.  I am not trying to be difficult.

HMS Illustrious and HMS Victorious are both printed in the game.  The class limit is three (HMS Formidable is not yet in the game).  Illustrious did not serve in the Frozen Seas theater; Victorious did.  So I can use Victorious, but not Illustrious; but the class limit on Victorious is 3.  So can I use 3?  Or, more likely, 2 (one as Formidable)?  

By your example, if Rodney had not operated in the CFS area, but Nelson had, I could use neither as Nelson is not in the game.

But if HMS Warspite served in the theater, and has 4 sisters... I can use 5x HMS Warspite?  Even if none of the other sisters served in the theater, or only some did?

I'm just trying to get a handle on this, as it will greatly impact how we can build fleets.

I'm glad to see the restrictions relaxed on DDs and Subs at least. Limiting an entire class of DDs based on the deployment of only the printed one would be harsh!

I am not sure this is a bad idea; but I do wonder (and might suggest) if it would be better (for the "larger" ships) to limit to ships that actually served, regardless of print status.  This will both limit our options and expand them from the above.

Hypothetical example of proposal:  HMS Rodney did not (theoretically) serve in the theater, but HMS Nelson did.  Therefore, one Rodney-class ship (Nelson, represented by Rodney) may be used.  

Hypothetical example two:  HMS Warspite served in the theater, and has a class limit of 5.  But (theoretically) only one of her sisters, HMS Barham, also served in the theater, while Queen Elizabeth, Malaya and Valiant did not.  Therefore only two Warspites may be used (both represented by a Warspite card).

Or is that delving into insanity?
NeuralDream

Not insanity necessarily, but it would certainly complicate things especially for large cruiser classes. Feel free to use this approach as a houserule, but it doesn't have to be followed as a clubhouse policy.
NeuralDream

I suggest that you all follow brig's example and start listing your units. If you need help, I can help and so can the research subforum.

In the meantime I will make the technical changes to allow everyone to join two clubs, one multi and one single.
P71

I have to agree with Brig's, I think this new requirement will eventually kill Theatre Club play. What are the Russians supposed to do? They never engaged in any type of sea battle so CFS can't use any of them? And why don't the National Clubs have to do this? If I can't use Montana because it never served in SoPac, then Club USN shouldn't be allowed to use it because it never served in the USN. Club FFN will have like 5 ships bigger than a DD as most of the French warships that fought did so as Vichy. I'm sorry ND, but this is a bad idea. Sad
SrgPoofy

danaussie wrote:
angryhydralisk wrote:
danaussie wrote:
To be perfectly honest I am still at a loss to even know what Team Rocket is all about, but I think thats the way Angry wants it...the guy slays me honestly. Laughing


Team Rocket is a club of fun randomness we pick unusual fleets that would hardly ever been played by anyone else (eg 10 antilopes)
when you play Team Rocket you pick the fleet but you cant know anything on it not even axis/allied
My club is for Fun period
(and stealing all the Pokemon  Twisted Evil )


Soooo...I'm trying to work out where that fits into either the National League or Theatre League competitions Angry. If you guys want to keep playing unofficial Club Challenge Matches thats fine by me. But if you however want to be recognized as an official Club Leagues Club you must meet the official criteria mate, its the same for everybody.

I have no problem with a Club just for fun brother if thats what it is.

Cheers mate Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan


I dont think he wants to compete with it.  Its just a random club for fun so he can play strange fleets.  If you notice in all the games he plays hes made sure to note that games vs Team Rocket dont count for League wins.
NeuralDream

P71, you misunderstood the requirement. All it does is to limit units by geographical area, so as to clearly separate geographically the theaters of operations clubs.

All WAS units took part in one operation or another.

    The question you have to ask for each one is:

    - Did this specific battleship, this specific carrier, this specific cruiser, this type of aircraft, this class of subs, this class of destroyers, this type of torpedo boats operate at any point during the war in my theatre of operations?

    If the answer is yes, then you can have it in your list and you can use as many of this as the class limit (or whatever houserule you agree with your opponent).
SrgPoofy

P71 wrote:
I have to agree with Brig's, I think this new requirement will eventually kill Theatre Club play. What are the Russians supposed to do? They never engaged in any type of sea battle so CFS can't use any of them? And why don't the National Clubs have to do this? If I can't use Montana because it never served in SoPac, then Club USN shouldn't be allowed to use it because it never served in the USN. Club FFN will have like 5 ships bigger than a DD as most of the French warships that fought did so as Vichy. I'm sorry ND, but this is a bad idea. Sad


My response and suggestion to this would be to calculate all the units you would have access to and then respond.

I will be looking into my FFN perhaps a simple name change will be in order to simply incorporate Vichy forces.
SrgPoofy

If anyone needs help with their lists I am available and willing to help.  Just shoot me a pm.
P71

NeuralDream wrote:
P71, you misunderstood the requirement. All it does is to limit units by geographical area, so as to clearly separate geographically the theaters of operations clubs.

All WAS units took part in one operation or another.

    The question you have to ask for each one is:

    - Did this specific battleship, this specific carrier, this specific cruiser, this type of aircraft, this class of subs, this class of destroyers, this type of torpedo boats operate at any point during the war in my theatre of operations?

    If the answer is yes, then you can have it in your list and you can use as many of this as the class limit (or whatever houserule you agree with your opponent).


No, I get the requirement. And I think it's A: Not fair that Theatre Clubs have to do it while Fleet Clubs don't (and there's MANY examples of ships that never sailed/fought with their assigned "nation") and B: Unduly punishes the Theatre Clubs when we were told 3 weeks ago that no unit restrictions would happen. All of the Theatre Clubs worked really hard to make fleet rules that were historically accurate yet still fun. Now we will have to bicker for months about whether or not a unit "operated" in a given theatre.
P71

SrgPoofy wrote:

My response and suggestion to this would be to calculate all the units you would have access to and then respond.


Our Club will honestly be the least impacted, since this is pretty much how we laid it out in the first place. It's still not fair to tally kill CFS and ClubMed. No Graf Zeppelin, no Aquila, no FdG, no SS, no Arkanglesak, no October Revolution, no U510 for ClubMed, etc, etc, etc...
NeuralDream

Single nation clubs are in a completely different category. They are already limited by the fact that they are single nation clubs.

Theater clubs need to be separated somehow, and by definition this has to be geographical. Otherwise, for example Club Med and Club Frozen Navies are almost identical.

I think you place too much emphasis on "operated". Even if it never sailed but was in the geographical area that you cover, you can have it. Just make sure you list fantasy ships  and FN ships separately in case a tournament or opponent doesn't allow them.
P71

Club Med and CFS navies are nothing alike, with possible exception of the RN (which would be similar to ours as well as the RN was literally world-wide). Club Med has France and Italy, CFS has neither. CFS has Germany, Club Med gets 1 DD, 2 SS's, and some planes. Club Med has Greece, CFS has Poland and Russia. They are nothing alike!

Again, I am firmly opposed to do this. It's arbitrary, it's going to ruin the Theatre play, and it's unfair to the Theatre clubs over the single-nation ones.
NeuralDream

You are right about CFS and Med. I had their RN and KM in mind.

I don't agree that this will ruin theater play at all. On the contrary, I expect fascinating Theater club tournaments with a nice local theater flavour.

Also, IMO there is no point in comparing theater clubs to single nation ones. They take part in different leagues and operate in parallel. You can play in both now that the two are separated.

I suggest we try it before shooting it down.
P71

So CFS's German fleets can no longer play Graf Zeppelin or FdG, but Club KM can? Club Med cannot play Aquila or Roma but Club RM can? That's not fair, or "flavorful". The Theatre Clubs already had extremely well thought-out fleet builds made and played that were fun, fair, and flavorful.
NeuralDream

Why can't club Med play Aquila or Roma? They were at the med's heart.

I don't know about CFS and GZ. That's up to them to argue that they should have the german fantasy ships.
P71

Aquila was never commissioned or sailed, therefore it never "operated in theatre".

Roma only sailed once, and that was to surrender at Armistice. That's also not "operations".

Just pointing out some un-intended consequences  of this new restriction. There are many, many more ships in WaS that won't be legally playable...
Brigman

CFS can and certainly WILL be using FDG and Graf Zeppelin.  Please stop inciting riots where none are needed.  I asked earlier in the discussion if "fantasy" units were to be allowed and the answer was yes, although listed separately as some competitions might preclude them.
Solomiranthius

It seems that things are being worked out here between club presidents and the founders of the club house and forum. Ultimately the fate and structure of club house play lies in their hands.

As a simple member, however, I would like to voice my input and pose some questions regarding these changes. In the end the success of the clubhouse turns just as much on whether the format will actually encourage members to participate as to the personal preferences of those in charge.

Why all these new restrictions on multi-nation clubs?

It was my understanding that single-nation clubs viewed multi-nation clubs as both too powerful to compete with in league competitions and having the chance of diluting single-nation membership. Splitting into two leagues was the solution to this problem, especially considering that people can belong to one of each.

Restricting multi-nation clubs, especially those that were already formed, to very theater-specific clubs with limited units and classes is going beyond simply fixing the controversy that the multi-nation clubs were causing - it is regulating them to an unnecessary degree.

If it was my decision I would not even split the league, because far from encouraging more play and competition, I feel it might chill it instead. I, however, am not one of the decision-makers and will go along with the division to bring civility back to the clubhouse. But trying to restrict multi-nation clubs to theater-specific-units is unnecessary and could likely be contrary to why many people enjoy the multi-nation clubs (the options to still feel part of a group for club play, but not be as limited in nation options). It could ultimately, as P71 said, be the death sentence to multi-nation clubs.

Actually attaching all-encompassing limits on theater-clubs as to 1) what units they can even use from their nations, and 2) how many of such units can be used, is something that is better reserved for individual match rules between club members. The Russians become more one-dimensional when you limit Arkhangelsk and SS to 1 unit. If that is how you and your opponent decide to play, then that is where the decision should be made. I like being able to look at all the units available to the RN, to the KM, or to the Soviets and make a unique fleet each time.

I have no problem that a Club Atlantic might also be able to play the UK or Germans, or that Club Med also has the UK. There is variation enough in that Club Med uses Greek units, or that Club Atlantic could play the US whereas CFS can play the Soviets.

I think Dan views the clubhouse single-nations as appealing to those players who feel passionate about one specific nation and the historical issues surrounding them. I feel that those who want to be part of multi-nation clubs might care more about the game-play aspect and crafting fleets unrestricted by class limits. Maybe I am wrong about this. But the proposed restrictions appear too much like trying to make multi-nation clubs more like single-nation clubs.

I am not trying to stir up trouble, just express my thoughts. I think the issue that caused the schism in the forums has been addressed by splitting the league. These additional regulations seem to go beyond that and I am curious as to the justification behind them - what problem are they really trying to fix now?
P71

Well said Solo, especially your conclusion, "I think the issue that caused the schism in the forums has been addressed by splitting the league. These additional regulations seem to go beyond that and I am curious as to the justification behind them - what problem are they really trying to fix now?"
SrgPoofy

P71 wrote:
Well said Solo, especially your conclusion, "I think the issue that caused the schism in the forums has been addressed by splitting the league. These additional regulations seem to go beyond that and I am curious as to the justification behind them - what problem are they really trying to fix now?"


If i understand what is going on I beleive that the split addressed the issue that we were having with the two clubs.

I also beleive that the new rules are to help with the formation of clubs to have a stronger guidline set than the loose rules that were.
sublime828

SrgPoofy wrote:
P71 wrote:
Well said Solo, especially your conclusion, "I think the issue that caused the schism in the forums has been addressed by splitting the league. These additional regulations seem to go beyond that and I am curious as to the justification behind them - what problem are they really trying to fix now?"


If i understand what is going on I beleive that the split addressed the issue that we were having with the two clubs.

I also beleive that the new rules are to help with the formation of clubs to have a stronger guidline set than the loose rules that were.


I feel for both sides of this discussion......I feel that limiting the multi-national clubs may be too restrictive but we need to follow along with ND's request and see what we come up with.  After all of the multi-nations have put their theater specific fleets together, we can evaluate how good/bad the new structure is going to play out.  Lets see what everyone comes up with and go from there.  On another note: I would feel much better about class limits only being enforced on BB's, CV's, and CA/CLs.  Destroyers, Subs, patrol craft and such (as long as they operated in theater) should not have class limits.
Solomiranthius

SrgPoofy wrote:
P71 wrote:
Well said Solo, especially your conclusion, "I think the issue that caused the schism in the forums has been addressed by splitting the league. These additional regulations seem to go beyond that and I am curious as to the justification behind them - what problem are they really trying to fix now?"


If i understand what is going on I beleive that the split addressed the issue that we were having with the two clubs.

I also beleive that the new rules are to help with the formation of clubs to have a stronger guidline set than the loose rules that were.


I just feel that could be done without the restrictions that these rules are placing (or at least could place) on the current clubs. I can understand to a degree limiting some units that did not operate in a theater especially with regards to forming new clubs (although I neither like nor agree with it), but I cannot see how making class/historical limits a formal requirement (or at least the presumption) for club matches aids in the formation of new clubs. Neither of these restrictions should be in place as they are but a chilling factor for play.

I'd rather see multi-nation clubs as just that: clubs based around a geographical area for determining what nations are playable, but not limiting builds for those nations based upon what ships actually operated within those areas. A club Atlantic, for example, might have UK, US and France (countries within that geographic confine), but not be limited to US units that operated in the Atlantic.

I admire what P71 is doing with SoPac, but his desire to make SoPac a theater-specific club shouldn't be extrapolated to the rest of the multi-nation clubs - a sentiment I feel he agrees with. I think part of the design and limitations he has on SoPac was to open the US up for Aussie "and friends" inclusion (and make it more palatable to the rest of the clubhouse).

I don't understand how "multi-nation" morphed into historically-accurate-theater-specific-nation so quickly.

Edit - and to address Sublime's point; I don't agree that any class limits should be imposed, on BBs, CVs or any ship. Obviously ND commands a lot of respect for who he is, but opinions on this restructuring should be given and considered in a polite and constructive manner. In the end it might be out of any of our hands, but if that means I or any other player disagrees with the restructuring strongly enough to question whether we would care to continue playing under it, then it is our duty to say so.
P71

Club SoPac's sole reason for going so historically-accurate unit-by-unit was only to please the "powers that be" to allow us to form due to a perceived unfairness in our theatre selection. I see absolutely no reason to hold the same type of restriction to CFS or Club Med. (And I honestly have no idea what RAAFFF is up to, I thought they were an affiliation like the IJNCVLF, not a Club...)

ABDA was really the only fleet that should have such a restriction, due it's history.
Brigman

Not to cast stones, but for better or worse, the hullabaloo around Club SoPac opened up the box and now we're inheriting the results.

While I was resistant at first, and still have some reservations, in the process of doing my research found that this may not be as terrible as we thought.

I will say that I think Club Med is going to have to be allowed some clause to use US cruiser sisters, or she'll lose the bulk of her US units.  

As ND has said, though, let's do our work and see the result before crying foul.
P71

So sorry that one man's temper-tantrum about a new Club joining that wasn't Euro-Axis is the straw that broke the camel's back. We didn't want to make a fuss and I PM'd everybody for permission before starting. Sheesh!

Again, this new restriction isn't going to mean a thing for us, but it's totally unfair to CFS and Club Med and frankly ridiculous that it doesn't apply to the Single-Nation clubs, either.
Solomiranthius

It sounds like the clubhouse was bound to reach this point eventually anyway; might as well be now. It looks like SoPac has gained us a couple new club players as well, which should always be the point of any group - bring people in and get them excited!

Beyond that I think I've laid out my arguments and concerns well enough, so I'll be quiet and let people respond if they wish to.
Brigman

I in no way hold Dan responsible for this.  

There is little point in playing blame games now.  As a wise Vorlon once said, "The avalanche has started.  It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
P71

It's nobodies "fault" and frankly it wouldn't matter anyways. The point is, several people have brought up good reasons to be against this sudden change in tack with no real response. We have valid concerns and would like for those to be addressed before continuing on.
sublime828

Perhaps instead of limiting the multi-nations to class-limits on ships in theater, we could just limit the ship to the ships used in theater without limiting how many of them you can use .  You can still use multiples of the the same ship but only the ships that fought in that particular theater.  Example - bismarck operated in the CFS region.  If a player wanted to bring 3 Bismarcks in a 400pt game....that would be ok.  Limiting the multi-nationals to class-limits is far too restrictive. I still feel that this should be a match level decision decided by the players in that particular match.
NeuralDream

If you don't want class limits, don't use class limits. In the same way, you can use FN cards if both agree, play a deathmatch rather than a normal game, ban or allow fantasy etc.
Brigman

The brainchild idea of using class limits was mine, Subby... was trying to get class sisters in the mix whose published version did not serve in-theater.  Embarassed

Movin' on... nothin' to see here... Embarassed
sublime828

NeuralDream wrote:
If you don't want class limits, don't use class limits. In the same way, you can use FN cards if both agree, play a deathmatch rather than a normal game, ban or allow fantasy etc.


Hey ND.  I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is we are supposed to do with our multi-national fleets.  With what you have said above I think it will make the process much easier for us multi-nationals.  Very Happy

CFS will limit units in our fleets to units that operated in theater (we will designate which FN units are allowed by the theater restrictions)

CFS will allow fantasy units in our available units.

And the use of FN cards, class limits, special rules ect. will remain up to the agreement of the players playing the individual matches.  

I appreciate the clarifications.  I'm meeting up with firesdstny tonight to go through the german fleets and brigman is doing a fine job combing threw his books and putting together the units we can use from the British fleet.  Thanks for the help!

Very Happy

sub out!
NeuralDream

No problem Smile.

And to reiterate, to make sure that all follow it, the only guideline is:
_____

    - Did this specific WAS battleship / this specific WAS carrier / this specific WAS cruiser / this type of aircraft / this class of subs / this class of destroyers / this type of torpedo boats operate at any point during the war in my theatre of operations?

    If the answer is yes, then you can have it in your list and you can use as many of this unit as the class limit (or whatever other houserule you agree with your opponent).
______

If you want to ignore class limits for destroyers or for all ships, that's up to you and your opponents. Just refrain from fielding a WAS unit and its card if it never operated in frozen seas. Everything else is up to you.
P71

And to copy it over to here as well, specific examples:

When there are sister ships in print: (CFS example)
HMS Victorious is allowed. Class limit is 4 when playing class limits.
HMS Illustrious is not allowed (assuming she never served in your area) even though she is a sister, as the specific named unit did not.
So you can take 4 Victorious's in a Class Limit game, but no Illustrious.

When there is only 1 ship in class in print: (CSP example)
USS Arizona did not serve in SoPac, but USS Pennsylvania did. Even though Arizona is the only version printed, we CSP may use none. If Pennsylvania gets made later, we would get to use 2.

That means really watch those Cruisers!!!
Brigman

Just to slip it in here, during my research of the Barracuda, I did find that Illustrious operated off of Norway in 1943.  Wink
danaussie

I've read through the entire thread again this morning, I just wanted to say how proud I am of you all. Now we are showing Forumini that we can work through our petty differences and get to work on the task at hand. Well done guys, really well done...thank you. Very Happy

The Club House is so very important to me, I want you all to know that. Splitting the League in two was not what I really wanted to do, nor was even allowing Multi-Nation Clubs to participate in competition in a League alongside National Clubs.

Clearly I have not had everything go my own way here, so I think you can take it from that that I do listen to everyone and try my level best to cater to all parties. I do that so that the Clubs do not die here at Forumini as I believe they are a true asset to it.

With that understood, splitting the League was only part of the solution to our problems, we needed to set some perameters as to how Multinational Clubs were to be configured. This would have to have been done sooner or later it really was by pure happenstance that the problems arose with the formation of Club SoPac. They were always there though, if you follow discussions at Club Med you will clearly see us touching on the very same problems we have faced over the past 5-6 weeks here.

Lastly I am very excited about the emergence of a Theatre League, what an awesome idea we will have Theatres represented with a whole host of different possibilities. I'm just thinking ahead to the types of competitions we might have with these Clubs. I know the task at hand is difficult and complicated, but you have all risen to the occasion and I'm just so very proud to call myself a "clubber" again, I'm so very proud to be part of this.

We now have catered for all the Club Members needs, a National League for the nation specific clubbers and a Multinational Theatre League option for those that want to play different navies throughout a season.

I actually want to be a part of this myself. Never thought I would hear myself saying that.

Cheers guys and thank you all once again. Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
sublime828

NeuralDream wrote:
No problem Smile.

And to reiterate, to make sure that all follow it, the only guideline is:
_____

    - Did this specific WAS battleship / this specific WAS carrier / this specific WAS cruiser / this type of aircraft / this class of subs / this class of destroyers / this type of torpedo boats operate at any point during the war in my theatre of operations?

    If the answer is yes, then you can have it in your list and you can use as many of this unit as the class limit (or whatever other houserule you agree with your opponent).
______

If you want to ignore class limits for destroyers or for all ships, that's up to you and your opponents. Just refrain from fielding a WAS unit and its card if it never operated in frozen seas. Everything else is up to you.


Thanks for the clarifications ND. Very Happy   In our clubhouse thread I am going to post something along these lines:  Special Rules such as OOB, class limits, weather, and the use of Forumini Navies cards will be discussed by the individual players on a match to match basis.

Does that sound appropriate?
NeuralDream

It does.
P71

Brigman wrote:
Just to slip it in here, during my research of the Barracuda, I did find that Illustrious operated off of Norway in 1943.  Wink


I dunno Brigs...

"They were re-equipped with Fairey Barracuda IIs in April 1943, after which they returned to the Norwegian coast in July 1943. They then re-embarked aboard HMS Illustrious and operated in support of the Salerno landings."

That makes it sound like they were in Norway for the tests, then went to Illustrious in the Med. Taken from 810 Squadron history.
NeuralDream

Yes, I've seen both too. Not sure what to deduce from these.
Brigman

"The Barracuda first saw action with 810 Squadron aboard HMS Illustrious off the coast of Norway in July 1943 before deploying to the Mediterranean to support the Salerno landings.[8] The following year they entered service in the Pacific Theatre."

That suggests to me they were at least operated off of HMS Illustrious at least once, and that's enough.
admiral_tee

danaussie wrote:


Quote:
What is going to happen to the 2 non-clubs (Club Rocket and Club Sandwich)?


Well Club Sandwich was proposed as a jest as far as I am concerned, they just wanted to be recognised to be able to have conversations here at the Club House. This is still the case but they are unable to compete in the Club League something they themselves agreed to.

Dan, that's not fair.
Referring to these threads here:
http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/ab...mp;highlight=sandwich&start=0
A vote here:
http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/about20491.html&highlight=sandwich

danaussie wrote:

As for both clubs niether of them meet Club House protocol for membership as well as other requirements and niether of them are recognised by the forum as official usergroups. Niether of them may compete in either the National League or Theatre League until they meet all protocol requirements for Club formation.

We may not meet whatever legislation is in place to exist in the Club House or in the Compeitions, but we're still a valid club - i believe as much as the IJNCVLLF (or whatever). After all, they don't have membership to the Club House or Competitions do they?

And speaking of that, if we're a club like the IJNCVLLF (i.e not for competitions) how do we become selectable in the profile settings?

Tee
P71

Club Sandwich is certainly a valid Special Interests Club. I see no reason why they can't be an option there.

You'll have to re-make your Avatar to the new size Tee, but then PM it to NeuralDream for inclusion.
danaussie

Whatever you guys say ok. A legitimate club sure, a recognized club only in the fact that a few guys sport the sig. An official Club? Not as far as I am concerned.

But to show the kind of good sport that I am, I am willing to discuss the possibility of having the Special Interest Clubs included here at the Club House so that each group can drop a line or two as to what they represent.

But as far as I can tell all, with the exception of one of these wants nothing to do with the Club House and are quite happy to run as independent entities around the forum. I'm happy either way.

I have always seen Club Sandwich as representing those that wish to mock the Clubs in general, nothing is going to change my mind on that. The fact that the representitives of Club Sandwich do not comment on changes here and are not involved in anything that goes on here, I believe vindicates my position as right on.

We a while back argued this point and once again I had to back down and allow you to be here and have the right to comment here, funny how after all that banter you have not made a single comment until now.

I'm sure alot of guys find this quite funny, but I have worked very hard to fight for the Clubs and take the time to have stupid conversations such as this one time and time again with people that just wish to mock me or antagonize me.

We all here at the Club House have worked hard to build something great we have protocols in place we have run two successful League competitions, we have a great comradery here, I dont think you have the right to come over here and mock what we have all acheived here.

Dan
P71

Dan you need to chill out man. It's a SPECIAL INTEREST CLUB. 99% of Special-Interest members just want to "fly the flag" for their cause. NONE of them participate in the Clubhouse Leagues or any other competitions or discussions. IJNCVLF could care less about anything besides what the IJN CV is going to be! Just let it go man. Sandwich isn't mocking you are anybody else, they're just having some humor in this way-too-freaking-uptight Clubhouse as a SPECIAL INTEREST group. How is angry's Team Rocket any different? Sheesh man, he didn't ask to have an HQ page and be in the League's and all that jazz, he just wants his club to have an Avatar for the Special Causes. There's no harm in that at all.

/rant
admiral_tee

I haven't posted at the Clubhouse as we (i think there's only a couple of us so we're not big at all  Embarassed ) agreed to your conditions that we're not to partake in the Club games and the Clubhouse seems to be set up soley for that.

As such, if we don't have a reason to be here (game/tournaments) then why would i post here?

I don't believe we need to post here to be a club - sorry if that's the case.

P71 - i wasn't aware of the terminology, but it sounds as if a Specialty Group is probably the best fit for us (again there's i think only a couple of us...  Embarassed but i think there's a hell of a lot more who are Club Sandwich in spirit at least  Smile ).

What's next?

Cheers,
Tee
danaussie

Whats next?

Nothing for me mate I'm not being the front man for Clubs at Forumini anymore thats a certain fact.

Whats next for me?

Sitting back in my favorite armchair with the fridge stacked full of p!ss and watching the V8 Supercars turn some laps at Mount Panorama, Bathurst.

Running my beloved club and painting competition and painting some bloody models, thats whats next for me 'ol boy.

Cheers Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Dan
danaussie

...thank you solo, ohh I am very much so going to enjoy my retirement mate. It will be great to be a positive voice for my CRN members as we battle through the oceans of the world.

Looking forward to it. Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Thanks Solo.

Dan
P71

What's next Tee is to have your Avatar made to the right size (I think it's 110x80, but double-check first) and then PM it to NeuralDream for inclusion as a Special Causes club. Other Special Causes clubs are:

IJNCVLF - Advocates for IJN CV's in every set.
RNBBw/oNSALF - Advocates for RN BB's with no negative SA's.
RAN/RCN/RNZNLF - Advocates for more Commonwealth units.
RAAFFF - Advocates for Australian aircraft.
Team Rocket - Plays WaS as purely Axis vs Allied in totally fun and tongue-in-cheek ways.

I think Club Sandwich - Advocating for the enjoyment of ALL fleets is pretty nice fit.
admiral_tee

P71 wrote:
What's next Tee is to have your Avatar made to the right size (I think it's 110x80, but double-check first) and then PM it to NeuralDream for inclusion as a Special Causes club. Other Special Causes clubs are:

IJNCVLF - Advocates for IJN CV's in every set.
RNBBw/oNSALF - Advocates for RN BB's with no negative SA's.
RAN/RCN/RNZNLF - Advocates for more Commonwealth units.
RAAFFF - Advocates for Australian aircraft.
Team Rocket - Plays WaS as purely Axis vs Allied in totally fun and tongue-in-cheek ways.

I think Club Sandwich - Advocating for the enjoyment of ALL fleets is pretty nice fit.


Ok, i'll get onto that.
I'm at work now so it's probably not going to happen now, but i'll get onto it during the weekend.

Cheers,
Tee

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