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Inspiring Lieutenant
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Attempts at competitive 100 point Carrier FleetsHello everyone. I'm new to this forum, and this is my first build thread. I enjoy the challange of building competitive 100 point fleets, and few things are more challanging than trying to make a carrier work at the 100 point level, but here are my best attempts for each nation:
USA
25 USS Enterprise
6 USS John C. Butler
42 TBF Avenger x 3
13 SBD Dauntless
7 F4F Wildcat
7 PBY Catalina
100 Points
The Enterprise's initiative bonus helps with aircraft placement, and you can select which aircraft are based on the carrier (available every turn) depending on what your opponent brings. This fleet needs to claim one objective and then count on it's aircraft to sink the rest of the opponent's fleet.
UK
22 HMS Ark Royal
7 HMCS Haida
24 HMS Truculents x 2
24 Barracuda Mk.II x 2
18 Beaufighter TF Mk.X x 2
5 Sea Hurricane
100 Points
This fleet uses a combination of subs and torpedo bombers for a massed attack against an enemy BB. The Haida, Barracudas, and Truculents provide multiple layers of ASW; and even the lowly Sea Hurricane gets an AA rating of 8 while "Defending the flat top."
20 HMS Illustrious
15 HMS Jamaica
7 HMAS Arunta
48 HMS Truculents x 4
10 Sea Hurricanes x 2
100 Points
This fleet uses the Illustrious as an AA cruiser and squeezes a point of initiative out of the Jamaica, which is important for the subs. The surface vessels mass together while the subs, protected by the Hurricanes, cripple the enemy fleet.
GERMANY
18 Graf Zeppelin
16 Admiral Hipper
24 U-66 x 2
22 U-510 x 2
14 Bf 109 x 2
6 Fw200 kondor
100 Points
This is my favorite carrier fleet, though almost all of it's offensive punch comes from the subs. Four torpedo rolls at range two just can't be beat; and, with three aircraft, you can often place the Kondor last, so it doesn't get attacked by enemy fighters.
JAPAN
20 Shokaku
10 Akituski
52 I19 x 4
18 A6M2 "Zekes" x 3
100 Points
This is basically a Japanese version of the German fleet above. It trades some torpedo dice and surface punch for greater range, an initiative point, and more AA protection.
ITALY
I look forward to making a 100 point Italian fleet with the Aquilla.
What are your experiences with 100 point carrier fleets, and do you think these would be effective?
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Duck Crusader
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I admire your pluck in posting this right off the bat, but time and time again it has been shown that even a US build at 100 pts has to be DEAD lucky to win. Regardless 
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jfkziegler
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I would tend to agree with Duck. On the plus side, your Avenger fleet is going to have a field day against sub swarms.
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IJN Fuso
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I agree. Carriers at 100 points are tough. A typical big BB fleet has a nice advantage at 100 points.
Here's a Japanese 100 point Monster
(I think this one is Ducks)
Mushashi - 66
2X Akit - 20
2X Zeke 12
Try this against the Germans:
1 Richileau
5X Le Terribles
And against the Brits:
Bismarck 53
Hipper 16
Galster 8
U66 12
U510 11
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The_lucky_Y
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Hmm the classic one:
Tennessee 43
Princeton 16
Dauntless 13
Dauntless 13
Wildcat 7
Fletcher 7
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IJN Fuso
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Nice one. Indeed a Classic. If you fear subs, you can trade the Wildcat for a PBY - which has the added benefit of pumping up your SBDs. Of course, do this only when your pretty sure there won't be an enemy fighter
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Duck Crusader
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You are correct IJN Fuso, one of my favorites. Little weak against sub swarms, pounds the crud out of everything else.
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Inspiring Lieutenant
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I like the fleets that you guys came up with to oppose my carrier fleets. I'd like to test play them, but unfortunately I don't have access to any minis right now since I am stationed overseas in RL. So, I can only theorize:
I actually like the Enterprise Fleet's chances against this one (Can't figure out the quote system yet, so I'm using Italics):
Here's a Japanese 100 point Monster
(I think this one is Ducks)
Mushashi - 66
2X Akit - 20
2X Zeke 12
On the first turn (Or maybe the second to avoid Zeke "Surprise"), the Musashi will be shadowed by the Catalina and face three Avengers escorted by the Wildcat, while the Dauntless, with Expert Bomber [2], cripples or vitals the stray Akituski. Afterwards, the Musashi will face a possible 15 torpedo rolls a turn while the Enterprise hides in a corner (Or evades behind an island if the map allows). However, I think the Musashi would win if it's fleet used its remaining two points and swapped the second Akitsuki out for two more Zekes.
I think this French Fleet would probably beat the Germans' in an objective match:
1 Richileau
5X Le Terribles
Although 4 ASW isn't that great for a destroyer, I think that the sheer number of them might hinder the subs' torpedo rolls long enough for the Richileau to take all three objectives or destroy the German surface fleet using ER5, although one of the Le Terribles would be crippled right off the bat by the Kondor's anti-ship missile. The German suface fleet woudn't make it near an objecive as long as the Rich went undamaged. So, the fighters and Kondor, along with some lucky torpedo hits, would have to make short work of the destroyers in order for the subs to damage the Richileau in time. Of course, a well placed island might buy some time for the German surface fleet. It could be a good game.
Of my two British carrier fleets, I think they would both lose against the Bismark fleet, but the Illustrious could at least split its forces to claim one objective (but its 10 points of Sea Hurricanes would be a comlete waste):
Bismarck 53
Hipper 16
Galster 8
U66 12
U510 11
The Ark Royal fleet's subs would stalemate the Germans'; but I suspect that British aerial torpedos would prove insufficent against this fleet, since it has decent AA and Barracudas and Beaufighters just aren't that good as torpedo bombers.
I think that my Graf Zeppelin fleet, but maybe not my Shokaku fleet, could beat this one whether it brings a Wildcat or Catalina:
Tennessee 43
Princeton 16
Dauntless 13
Dauntless 13
Wildcat 7
Fletcher 7
This US fleet has almost no ASW, and the first time I win initiative the Fletcher will be crippled by anti ship missile. If this fleet brings a Catalina instead of a fighter, all three of its aircraft will be easy prey for the two Bf109s with interceptor ability; and with AA rolls of 8,8,7,7 (9,8,8,7 with interceptor), the Dauntlesses could have a hard time getting through; and the Tennessee, with Slow 2, is going to be easy prey for the Wolfpack.
Thanks everyone for your input. I had fun speculating on these battles. If anyone wants to play them, I'd like to read a review.
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mjos220
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You can probably get someone to play you an online game using these builds if you asked.
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Inspiring Lieutenant
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| The_lucky_Y wrote: | Hmm the classic one:
Tennessee 43
Princeton 16
Dauntless 13
Dauntless 13
Wildcat 7
Fletcher 7 |
| Duck Crusader wrote: | | You are correct IJN Fuso, one of my favorites. Little weak against sub swarms, pounds the crud out of everything else |
I hate to be the cocky new guy, but it seems to me that, in addition to being weak against sub swarms, a Yamato, Musashi, or any armor 9 battleship could beat this fleet single handedly. Perhaps giant BB and sub swarm builds are not so common at 100 where you play.
I'll have to look into playing online, but it could be tough because of the time difference and the fact that I use this board at work (shhh... don't tell).
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IJN Fuso
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What's interesting is that while there is a lot of strategy in building fleets. Playing them well is often the difference between winning and losing.
I've been playing WAS for a while now, and I have lost plenty of games because of a bad move - not necessarily a bad fleet.
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jfkziegler
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| IJN Fuso wrote: | What's interesting is that while there is a lot of strategy in building fleets. Playing them well is often the difference between winning and losing.
I've been playing WAS for a while now, and I have lost plenty of games because of a bad move - not necessarily a bad fleet. |
True, but the even bigger factor is the roll of the dice, especially when you're playing the Japanese and you are dependent upon long-lances and I-19's.
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Duck Crusader
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| IJN Fuso wrote: | Here's a Japanese 100 point Monster
(I think this one is Ducks)
Mushashi - 66
2X Akit - 20
2X Zeke 12 |
Except that I was talking about this fleet, not the one with the Tennessee. Your US build is the only one that has a chance against this one, but I am notoriously lucky about aborting things (to make up for my horrible torpedo rolls I guess) and we used to have an uber-US cheese player who was notorious for builds like that. Consequently I've hammered fleets very like that one numerous times, simply run the mighty MU right up the middle until she ranges the carrier. If I can keep the air off me until I can do that the US loses every time. (Which, from past experience, is 3 out of 4 times) 100 points is too small for a carrier build.
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Inspiring Lieutenant
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| Duck Crusader wrote: | | IJN Fuso wrote: | Here's a Japanese 100 point Monster
(I think this one is Ducks)
Mushashi - 66
2X Akit - 20
2X Zeke 12 |
Except that I was talking about this fleet, not the one with the Tennessee. Your US build is the only one that has a chance against this one, but I am notoriously lucky about aborting things (to make up for my horrible torpedo rolls I guess) and we used to have an uber-US cheese player who was notorious for builds like that. Consequently I've hammered fleets very like that one numerous times, simply run the mighty MU right up the middle until she ranges the carrier. If I can keep the air off me until I can do that the US loses every time. (Which, from past experience, is 3 out of 4 times) 100 points is too small for a carrier build. |
Opps... Sorry. Didn't realize which build you were talking about. I probably put too many in here for one thread.
I agree that the US build is the only Allied one with a chance vs that Musashi build. You have a point that, given the "Zekes" and the number of hits that the Musashi can withstand, there is only a small window for the planes to sink her before she ranges the carrier (This was the fate of my British builds last time I played them). However, the Wildcat's escort ability hinders the "Zeke's" AA, so more Avenger's get though with 5 torps each, and the Butler's smoke can extend the window of the carrier's survival (Not to mention Enterprise's survivor SA).
Perhaps it was a fluke, but in the past I played the following two builds against each other (Marching Musashi right up the middle) and the Yorktown won quite decidedly (I keep records of past games - the score was 176 to 50):
USS Yorktown 23
USS Atlanta 12
TBF Avengers x 3 42
SBD Dauntless 13
F6F-3 Hellcat 10
vs
Musashi 66
Akitsuki 10
A6M2 "Zekes" x 4 24
I think it happened to be on an island map, but Musashi and the Zekes just couldn't handle the Avengers and Hellcat. The entire Japanese surface fleet was sunk after they captured the center objective; and they caused no damage at all to the US Fleet.
Of course, this was before the errata on the Hellcat, but that is probably a minor factor. I think that the Enterprise build, given it's initiative bonus, smoke, and PBY support, is even better suited against a Musashi fleet than the above Yorktown build, which is perhaps overkill on AA.
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Duck Crusader
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Take it to a tourney and tell me how many wins you come away with...
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Inspiring Lieutenant
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Sadly, there are no tournaments in my area, even when I am home. However, that Yorktown build went 2-4 in my last "Round-robin" play. While it beat the above Musashi fleet and a Jap DD swarm (Barvely), it was utterly destroyed by a Tirpitz fleet (Better AA & ER5), and it lost to a Scharnhorst / Zeppelin build, the Shokaku build in my first post, and another build very similar to the Zeppelin / U-boat build in my first post.
Even though I think that my Enterprise build would fare better, I would have to be very brave to take it to a tournament. Alas... if only there was one.
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USS Yorktown (CV-5)
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The Intrepid offers some new options I guess.
I would think the following build could achieve a decent % of wins:
Intrepid
Baltimore
2x Avenger
Helldiver
Wildcat
Catalina
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swarbs
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I like the topic, if only for the challenge, though most of the remarks on here are correct. I've certainly been blown out of the water plenty of times by battleship builds at 100 points to appreciate that.
The British have a decent shot, I think at two carriers per build at 100 points.
Ark 22
Illustrious 20
4xBarracuda 48
2xSea Hurricane 10
If you're going to go carrier, you might as well go big, I don't see an escorting cruiser making much of a difference if the opponent is Bismarck or Yamato.
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The_lucky_Y
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1x Shokaku 20
2x Judy 24
1x Zeke 6
1x Yamashiro 43
1x Set3 Zeke 7
or pure carrier power
1x Shokaku 20
1x Soryu 20
4x Judy 48
2x Zeke 12
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swarbs
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| The_lucky_Y wrote: | 1x Shokaku 20
2x Judy 24
1x Zeke 6
1x Yamashiro 43
1x Set3 Zeke 7
or pure carrier power
1x Shokaku 20
1x Soryu 20
4x Judy 48
2x Zeke 12 |
I like both of these a lot. It illustrates the two points where success might be achieved. Either you have to take a least a moderate battleship (unfortunately for the Japanese probably something bigger than Kongo), or the escort force for your carriers should be essentially nothing.
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USS Yorktown (CV-5)
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| The_lucky_Y wrote: | 1x Shokaku 20
2x Judy 24
1x Zeke 6
1x Yamashiro 43
1x Set3 Zeke 7
or pure carrier power
1x Shokaku 20
1x Soryu 20
4x Judy 48
2x Zeke 12 |
The problem I see with these builds is that neither one aims for the optimal one sector strike force (3 bombers plus an escorting fighter). The second build will likely have an odd Judy out for the first round at least. Pure Judys are also risky if facing a big battleship.
On the topic of whether to go pure air or including surface support. I included the Baltimore in my build to give more flexibility against LL swarms or even sub builds (the Avengers plus Catalina deal with subs while the Baltimore can grab an objective). The Baltimore can even buy you an extra turn against big BBs because they need a 10 to one-shot it. The Baltimore is AA8 so it´s quite handy if you´re fighting another carrier or air heavy build (so it´s possibly saving you some points since you can live with just one Wildcat).
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swarbs
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I won't say the Baltimore is completely useless. The problem is that if you go for an objective, you're not fulfilling the AA roll and vice-versa. Also, while if might be nice against a LL swarm or a sub-build, considering it has TD, the LL swarm or the sub swarm are exactly the things you want to run into if you bring a carrier force. Especially as the Americans, you've got plenty of air-power to cream enemy subs/destroyers.
As for having four attack aircraft, I'd go for putting all four in a sector on the first turn of the game and counting on losing one, and if you don't that's just gravy, and if you lose more than one, that's the risk you pay for taking a non-optimal fleet at 100 points.
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Inspiring Lieutenant
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Glad to see that this thread is picking up steam again. 
Here are a few Japanese carrier fleets I came up with, featuring the new Jill:
Akagi 27
Shoho 9
B6N2 "Jill" x 3 42
A6M2 "Zeke" x 2 12
H8Ki "Emily" 10
The Akagi provides that all important initiative bonus, expert torpedos, and needs no cruiser escort, and the Shoho, which I have mixed feelings about, keeps an extra expert Zeke in the air. The three Jills can attack every turn, with an escort, from range 0 or 1, with a bonus conferred by the Emily.
Shokaku 20
Akitsuki 10
B6N2 "Jill" x 3 42
D4YI "judy" 12
A6M2 "Zeke" 6
H8KI "Emily" 10
Similar build, but with a Judy thrown in to take advantage of Shokaku's Expert Bomber 2. Two planes will have to take turns launching from the carrier in order to attack in full force every turn. It has better ASW, but it lacks the gunnery of the Akagi.
Soryu 20
Akitsuki 10
B6N2 "Jill" x 3 42
A6M2 "Zeke" x 3 18
H8KI "Emily" 10
This one has very good air cover with Expert Dogfighter 2 and plenty of escorting Zekes, so you have room to take some losses. The Soryu is fragile and has no initiative bonus, but it lends itself well to this kind of build with it's mix of Expert abilities.
I'd do one for the Zuikaku too, but that ship is just sub-par. 
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fredmiracle
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| USS Yorktown (CV-5) wrote: | The Intrepid offers some new options I guess.
I would think the following build could achieve a decent % of wins:
Intrepid
Baltimore
2x Avenger
Helldiver
Wildcat
Catalina |
How about pure "American (Air) Cheese"?
USS Intrepid - 26
4x TBF Avenger - 56
1x F6F Hellcat - 10
1x PBY Catalina - 7
This could theoretically put up to 21 torpedoes every turn onto a battleship (or 17 onto an enemy carrier). I like 4 Avengers to guard against a fluke early loss of one of them. Alt-payload can help against a swarm, or just go ahead and use torpedoes to kill DDs and cripple cruisers, in a 100 pt game, there's a limit to how many you will encounter. Hopefully the Hellcat can attrition some enemy aircraft, and of course can also help by strafing. This build also has some capabilities against subs. Intrepid with TD, 8 AA and 11 VA should have a pretty decent chance of surviving even unescorted.
If you expect enemy air presence, you could swap 1 Avenger for 2 Wildcats. If you expect enemy cruisers you could swap one for a Dauntless or Helldiver...
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Inspiring Lieutenant
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| fredmiracle wrote: |
How about pure "American (Air) Cheese"?
USS Intrepid - 26
4x TBF Avenger - 56
1x F6F Hellcat - 10
1x PBY Catalina - 7
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I like the aerial torpedo output, but I think that it is too weak in it's own air defense, and bringing just one surface ship is kind of risky. Although the Intrepid and Hellcat both have excellent AA ratings, two rolls may not be enough against a dedicated air attack fleet, especially if it contains the new Jills. I would sacrifice one Avenger for some extra AA & surface power.
USS Intrepid - 26
USS San Diego - 11
3 x TBF Avenger - 42
2 x F4F Wildcats - 14
1 x PBY Catalina - 7
100
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kommandant
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| Inspiring Lieutenant wrote: | Sadly, there are no tournaments in my area, even when I am home. However, that Yorktown build went 2-4 in my last "Round-robin" play. While it beat the above Musashi fleet and a Jap DD swarm (Barvely), it was utterly destroyed by a Tirpitz fleet (Better AA & ER5), and it lost to a Scharnhorst / Zeppelin build, the Shokaku build in my first post, and another build very similar to the Zeppelin / U-boat build in my first post.
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excuse my ignorance but is the Scharnhorst/Zeppelin
build something like this:
100 points:
1x Scharnhorst
1x Graf Zeppelin
2x Bf-109
1x FW 200 Kondor
2x U66
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Inspiring Lieutenant
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| kommandant wrote: | | Inspiring Lieutenant wrote: | Sadly, there are no tournaments in my area, even when I am home. However, that Yorktown build went 2-4 in my last "Round-robin" play. While it beat the above Musashi fleet and a Jap DD swarm (Barvely), it was utterly destroyed by a Tirpitz fleet (Better AA & ER5), and it lost to a Scharnhorst / Zeppelin build, the Shokaku build in my first post, and another build very similar to the Zeppelin / U-boat build in my first post.
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excuse my ignorance but is the Scharnhorst/Zeppelin
build something like this:
100 points:
1x Scharnhorst
1x Graf Zeppelin
2x Bf-109
1x FW 200 Kondor
2x U66 |
Yes, that was it exactly.
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