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protevangelium

ASW Threat Negative Sub Modifers

When applying negative modifiers to a sub's torp attack, do you add the SAs that might give it more than one die BEFORE taking into account the negative modifiers from ASW assets or AFTER?
swarbs

Before.  Figure out the whole modifier, adding positives (SA's) and subtracting negatives (crippled/harassment).  Then if the result is lower than one, bump it up to one.
protevangelium

swarbs wrote:
Before.  Figure out the whole modifier, adding positives (SA's) and subtracting negatives (crippled/harassment).  Then if the result is lower than one, bump it up to one.


Okay, that answers my question. I was somehow under the impression the positive SAs were added after all the ASW negatives were applied to the natural dice amount of said sub.
protevangelium

swarbs wrote:
Before.  Figure out the whole modifier, adding positives (SA's) and subtracting negatives (crippled/harassment).  Then if the result is lower than one, bump it up to one.


Forgot to say thanks: "Thanks!"
swarbs

No problem, don't have a link or anything, but I know this question was posed at one point over on the official boards and I remembered bumping into it.
protevangelium

swarbs wrote:
No problem, don't have a link or anything, but I know this question was posed at one point over on the official boards and I remembered bumping into it.


I imagine it did, but I don't play the game nearly as often as I'd like.
wilt57

I think in the original sub threat rules posted by WotC the positive modifiers were applied after all negatives.  It was then re-clarified to what swarbs said.  So, you weren't wrong, you were just "out of date."  Cool

wilt57
protevangelium

wilt57 wrote:
I think in the original sub threat rules posted by WotC the positive modifiers were applied after all negatives.  It was then re-clarified to what swarbs said.  So, you weren't wrong, you were just "out of date."  Cool

wilt57


Indeed. The lapse of even a single day's checking of the Rules Clarification can often leave one behind the times.  Very Happy
Fellblade

I think the only time you can ignore a negative penalty is when your base number of torp attacks are 1, you're crippled, and something gives you a +1 for a total of 2. On the other hand, if your base number is 2, -1 for crippled and +1 for an SA you're back to 2 again. No idea why they ruled this, but I think its still under the "crippled" section. Maybe for things like the Sam Roberts so it can always make attacks on BBs with 2 dice?
protevangelium

Okay, here is the most current statement on ASW threat from the Rules Clarification doc:

Quote:
ASW threats stack; if you have several destroyers nearby, you can reduce a Submarine's attack to
0 dice or less. Special abilities apply normally, however, and abilities such as Wolfpack or
Destroyer Killer may offset some of the ASW Threat attack penalty. Even if a Submarine's
Torpedo attack rating is reduced to 0 or less after all penalties and bonuses are assessed, its
Torpedo attack is always a minimum of 1 die.


What does this phrase "Special abilities apply normally" supposed to mean? For instance, let's say my I-26 was in a sector surrounded by 4 (!) U.S. destroyers of assorted type. And let's also say that an Enterprise-class carrier was 1 sector away. Those four DDs would reduce the I-26s attack to below 0 torp dice without any modifiers or conditions yet applied (other than the ASW Threat negatives).

But because the sub always gets at least 1 torp die, it's attack will be at least that. However, here is my question. According to that quote above, does the sub continue to get the SA Carrier Hunter on the upcoming turn? In other words, will it's attack be 1 die or 2 dice?
Fellblade

In your example,
I-26 at range 1: 3 dice
- shooting at a carrier: +1 dice (4 total)
- 4 destroyers harassing you: -4 dice (0 total)
- Minimum of 1 required (1 total)
Net result: 1 die torpedo attack.


Another example:
I-26 at range 3: 1 die
- I-26 crippled: -1 die (to minimum of 1)
- shooting at a carrier: +1 die (2 total)
Net result: 2 dice torpedo attack.

Third example,
I-26 at range 1: 3 dice
- I-26 crippled: -1 die (2 total)
- shooting at a carrier: +1 dice (3 total)
- 4 destroyers harassing you: -4 dice (-1 total)
- Minimum of 1 require: (1 total)
Net result: 1 die torpedo attack.

No, doesn't make sense to me either.
I guess the order of operations is:
1. Base dice
2. Crippled effect (can not drop below 1 at this point)
3. SA bonuses
4. Harassment (CAN drop below 1)
5. Anything less one defaults to 1


They've waffled back and forth on this quite a few times.
Greyh Seer

Fellblade wrote:


Another example:
I-26 at range 3: 1 die
- I-26 crippled: -1 die (to minimum of 1)
- shooting at a carrier: +1 die (2 total)
Net result: 2 dice torpedo attack.


I'm not sure this is correct.  Shouldn't it be:

I-26 at range 3: 1 die
- I-26 crippled: -1 die
- shooting at a carrier: +1 die
Net result: 1 dice torpedo attack.

the +1 and the -1 esentially cancel each other out.  the only time the minimum of 1 should come into effect is in an example like this:

I-26 at range 3: 1 die
- I-26 crippled: -1 die
- shooting at a carrier: +1 die
- attacked by ASW air this turn: -1 die
- Destroyer (ASW ship) adjacent: -1
Net result: -1 dice torpedo attack. (minimum is always 1, so 1 die torpedo attack)

correct me if I'm wrong...but that's how we've always played it...I don't see any clarifications that say this is wrong...
swarbs

Greyh, here's a quote from the clarifications document. I had always played as you did also, but I guess in error, unless this sentence is new:

A crippled Ship or Submarine rolls one less attack die when making Torpedo attacks, if they
have one (to a minimum of 1 die). If that Ship or Submarine has a special ability that grants a
bonus Torpedo attack die in certain conditions, then they still get that bonus die (2 dice) when
attacking under those conditions.


As others have said, I guess crippled is sort of counted first, this can take you no lower than one.  Add bonuses, subtract harassment, then it is lower than one, bump it up to one.

I think the problem is these two rules weren't really considered together, so it might be a valid question for the other board.
wilt57

I believe swarbs is correct here.  The crippled status is not really a penalty as it is a "state of being."  Thus it is applied first and then the harrassment penalties and SA bonuses apply against each other, a 0 resulting in 1 die.
This is how we have always played it and this is how the rules make most sense to me.  That said WotC's ruling may be different.

wilt57
Greyh Seer

I see that I am wrong, but I would love it if you could get this specifically addressed on the other forum swarbs...

doing it the way that they have set up seems....unnecessarily complicated - and is going to be difficult to explain to the younger players in our group.  Sad

I think it should be kept simple: add everything togeather - if it is negative number, then you still get one...simple.

grrr.  Evil or Very Mad



edit:(yes, I added grrr. - what up)
defender390

Here's the old ruling:

http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?p=317013#post317013
Greyh Seer

Quote:
I don't think there's any contradiction. Both the PDF and Rich indicated that no matter how many minuses a sub takes from ASW threats, it never has its torpedo attack rating reduced below 1. In your first example, the u-boat would have a -3 penalty. U-510 only has a torpedo attack value of 3, however, so the penalties reduce it to 0. It could still make a 1-die torpedo attack despite the -3 penalty.

The Wolfpack bonus is factored into the overall equation -- "Even if
a Submarine's Torpedo attack rating is reduced to 0 or less after all penalties and bonuses are assessed, its Torpedo attack is always a minimum of 1 die." With -2 from ASW threats and +1 from Wolfpack, a u-boat would get 2 dice at close range -- 3-2=1, 1+1=2. If the ASW threat was -3, the u-boat would get 1 die -- 3-3=0, 0+1=1. If the ASW threat was -4, the u-boat would still get 1 die -- 3-4=-1, -1+1=0, but the attack gets a minimum of 1 die.

I believe that the PDF contradicts an earlier ruling in this regard* (which allowed the Wolfpack bonus to be added to the 1-die minimum no matter how many penalties were applied). The PDF takes precedence.

Steve

* I haven't searched for it extensively, so I could be remembering this wrong.


So, if I am reading this correctly, the way I am thinking is right?   (Man all this math is killing me Wink)
swarbs

Except that the rules PDF now contains a sentence saying that you do add your bonuses after applying the one die minimum (at least for the crippled penalty).
weedsrock2

The key is your total can go below zero. Notice the example of -4 ASW harrassment. 3-4=-1.  In some of your examples above you guys were 'bottoming out' your calculations at 1. That is not correct.

So apply all the minuses, then add all the pluses. If the final result is 1 or less you get 1 torpedo.
weedsrock2

swarbs wrote:
Except that the rules PDF now contains a sentence saying that you do add your bonuses after applying the one die minimum (at least for the crippled penalty).


Where is that in the document? I don't see that in the ASW section.
Fellblade

weedsrock2 wrote:
Where is that in the document? I don't see that in the ASW section.


This part has been there awhile, before "ASW Threat" existed I think:
Quote:
A crippled Ship or Submarine rolls one less attack die when making Torpedo attacks, if they have one (to a minimum of 1 die). If that Ship or Submarine has a special ability that grants a bonus Torpedo attack die in certain conditions, then they still get that bonus die (2 dice) when attacking under those conditions.


Also under ASW threat:
Quote:
Even if a Submarine's Torpedo attack rating is reduced to 0 or less after all penalties and bonuses are assessed, its Torpedo attack is  always a minimum of 1 die.



I hope when they published the revised rulebook with the new starter set that they spend some time tidying up the piecemeal rulings they've put in place to make it a little more consistent.
Aquarius

I decided I should finally jump in on all this.

The relevant passages from the clarifications:

Quote:
Crippled
Crippled flagships don't add their flagship bonus to the initiative roll.
A crippled Ship or Submarine rolls one less attack die when making Torpedo attacks, if they
have one (to a minimum of 1 die). If that Ship or Submarine has a special ability that grants a
bonus Torpedo attack die in certain conditions, then they still get that bonus die (2 dice) when
attacking under those conditions.



Quote:
ASW threats stack; if you have several destroyers nearby, you can reduce a Submarine's attack to
0 dice or less. Special abilities apply normally, however, and abilities such as Wolfpack or
Destroyer Killer may offset some of the ASW Threat attack penalty. Even if a Submarine's
Torpedo attack rating is reduced to 0 or less after all penalties and bonuses are assessed, its
Torpedo attack is always a minimum of 1 die.



To me, it looks like the two rules were written without looking at the effect the have on each other.

The way I read it is as such:

For healthy submarines, only the second passage applies (duh).

For crippled submarines, you apply all of the harassed penalties. Actually, let me use an example here.

U-510 has wolfpack, but is crippled.

Range 1 shot = 3 dice
4 adjacent destroyers = -4.
Currently at -1.
Kondor is pinpointing. Brings it to 0 (you add this now because it's another unit's SA, not its own).
Because you have added all outside bonuses and penalties (excluding the own unit's SA), and the result is zero, you make it the minimum of 1.
But because you are crippled, you still get the benefits of your own SA, so you add 1 die, for 2 total.

So in a bizarre way, the crippled sub is actually better than the healthy one.
Fellblade

I think back in that Feb disaster of rule rewriting they clarified the issue of harassment vs crippling after about 4 reprints of the Rule Mudi...er, Clarification. Once the dust settled, crippled was applied first such that harassment trumped it to avoid situations as you just described.
weedsrock2

Hmm. I see where you are coming from. I agree this is an 'artifact' of the harrassment rules being created after the Advanced Rules were created. I think we should post this on the WotC board and see what Steve says about it.
swarbs

I really do think it should be a two-step sort of process.  Add all bonuses, subtract all negatives (crippled and harassment), then apply the min. one rule.

Now it feels more complicated.
jfkziegler

swarbs wrote:
I really do think it should be a two-step sort of process.  Add all bonuses, subtract all negatives (crippled and harassment), then apply the min. one rule.

Now it feels more complicated.


I agree that this makes the most sense.  I also think Weeds is correct that this is probably a rules artifact that needs a clarification.
swarbs

Ok, I guess I'll post this one in the other forum.
wilt57

Aquarius wrote:
So in a bizarre way, the crippled sub is actually better than the healthy one.


This is why the crippled status is applied before any threat and SAs.  In the end a crippled sub can be just as good as a healthy one, but never better, which is how it should be.  I crippled unit should never be able to outperform it's "full" self.

wilt57
Run Silent

wilt57 wrote:
I believe swarbs is correct here.  The crippled status is not really a penalty as it is a "state of being."Thus it is applied first...

This is the only way these two situations occurring together makes any sense.
wilt57 wrote:
  and then the harrassment penalties and SA bonuses apply against each other, a 0 resulting in 1 die.
This is how we have always played it and this is how the rules make most sense to me.  That said WotC's ruling may be different.

wilt57
afilter

Let me muddy the waters a bit....we had not played much since the harrassment ruling until now.

1.  Does harassment only count if a unit actually makes an ASW attack on the sub in the same sector or just if a unit is in the same sector and has an ASW value?

Examples: S
-Swordfish makes a torp attack, but has an ASW value would this count as harrassment?
-Destoyer with ASW value makes gunnery/torp attack against another ship.  Harrassment or not?


2. Does it only apply during the sub phase?  For example I have 2 destroyers that make ASW attacks, but are eliminated due to enemy gunnery attack.  Common sense tells me they harrassed the sub, but they are no longer there during the actual sub phase.  No harrassment or -2?  

TIA,
swarbs

Afilter.  It is different for different unit types.  You only count aircraft if they made an attack on the sub this turn (hit or not).  Ships are counted, but not until the sub phase itself.  Count all local and adjacent units with ASW, whether they made an attack or not.
afilter

swarbs wrote:
Afilter.  It is different for different unit types.  You only count aircraft if they made an attack on the sub this turn (hit or not).  Ships are counted, but not until the sub phase itself.  Count all local and adjacent units with ASW, whether they made an attack or not.


OK, so it is adjacent as well.  So a DD does not have to make an ASW attack or even be in the same sector where a plane does.

I guess that makes sense and takes a bit of the sting out of a wolf pack.

We were playing local only and only if it made an ASW attack.
towcritter1966

swarbs wrote:
Greyh, here's a quote from the clarifications document. I had always played as you did also, but I guess in error, unless this sentence is new:

A crippled Ship or Submarine rolls one less attack die when making Torpedo attacks, if they
have one (to a minimum of 1 die). If that Ship or Submarine has a special ability that grants a
bonus Torpedo attack die in certain conditions, then they still get that bonus die (2 dice) when
attacking under those conditions.


As others have said, I guess crippled is sort of counted first, this can take you no lower than one.  Add bonuses, subtract harassment, then it is lower than one, bump it up to one.

I think the problem is these two rules weren't really considered together, so it might be a valid question for the other board.


This is how I understand it as well and there is a post on the AH site under clarifications stating the basic formula.  In one of the examples in a previous entry there was no harrassment so the formula was correct.  In fact I believe that all the examples were correct.  The largest factor is always the harassment.  I have used PT boats in tandem with DD's and was consistantly able to reduce my opponent (GE) to 1 die per attack even though he had Wolfpack and Pinpointer (or whatever it is they get from the Condor).  In total the harrassment was around a -6 or -8 in some cases.  The addition of the harassment rules really makes DD's and PT/MTB's worth bringing along.  Especially if your opponent is sub heavy.
swarbs

Yep, this is one that was just clarified with a change to the rules update doc by WAS.  Effectively they've removed the guarantee that an SA always give a unit a +1 that can't be harassed or modified away.

Now it's simple.  Add all positives and negatives.  Raise the result to a minimum of one.  Fire away.
protevangelium

What ships contribute to ASW negative modifiers on the  sub--all ships in the vicinity that turn, or only the ones remaining by the submarine attack phase?
Tincancaptain

Only those remaining during the sub attack phase.
swarbs

Tincancaptain wrote:
Only those remaining during the sub attack phase.
Exactly
Lobukia

Isn't all of this debate about WHEN a crippled sub recieves its SA irrelevant, crippled units don't benefit from their own SAs.  So there is no "when".
Tincancaptain

Lobukia wrote:
crippled units don't benefit from their own SAs.


Say again?
swarbs

I believe that crippled ships only lose the benefit of their flags, not their SA's.
Gross Admiral Raeder

weedsrock2 wrote:


So apply all the minuses, then add all the pluses. If the final result is 1 or less you get 1 torpedo.


He is so right.
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