Ector
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Ability StackingCan anybody answer whether the carriers' abilities stack or not?
For instance, if I have two Illustrious ships (there actually was more ships of its class), will I get several Sneak Attack benefits or just one? Will my Expert Torpedoes work for several bombers (or even for one bomber twice)?
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chesty
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SA's with the same name can't stack as far as I know, so you can't use more than one Sneak Attack per game.
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jfkziegler
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And Expert Torpedoes from two Illustrious will allow you to put the ability on two different bombers, but not the same one twice.
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swarbs
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Correct, and even SA's like Expert Bomber 1 and Expert Bomber 2 have been ruled to be the same SA, and so they don't stack either.
Sneak Attack isn't an assigned bonus, it just kind of kicks in, so unlike having multiple expert bonuses which can be added to multiple bombers, there's no real benefit from having two Sneak Attacks in play at the same time.
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Satchmo
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what about using a carrier "expert" SA on a land based plane?
For example could i use expert dog fighter on a Beaufighter?
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jfkziegler
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Yes - there is nothing in the rules to prevent it.
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afilter
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| jfkziegler wrote: | | Yes - there is nothing in the rules to prevent it. |
Hmmm...we have never played this way, but then we do not play the basic game that much. We always played that carrier SAs could only be used with carrier planes(not necessarily those based on that particular carrier).
I think this needs some more clarification.
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ElectricCatND
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Same for us with using the carrier bonuses with whoever. Really, I'd use as the command and control from that unit is what's giving the bonus.
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jfkziegler
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| afilter wrote: | | jfkziegler wrote: | | Yes - there is nothing in the rules to prevent it. |
Hmmm...we have never played this way, but then we do not play the basic game that much. We always played that carrier SAs could only be used with carrier planes(not necessarily those based on that particular carrier).
I think this needs some more clarification. |
The wording is fairly clear. It does not say "carrier-based friendly dive bomber," it says "friendly dive bomber." As long as the unit is a dive bomber, it can benefit from the ability. In the example given, Beaufighter is a fighter, so it can benefit from the ability. I know it may not make real life sense, but that's the way the game mechanic works.
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Europa1942
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As Beaufighter is considered a fighter it cannot benifit from expert Torpedoes correct?
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jfkziegler
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That is correct.
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afilter
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| jfkziegler wrote: | | afilter wrote: | | jfkziegler wrote: | | Yes - there is nothing in the rules to prevent it. |
Hmmm...we have never played this way, but then we do not play the basic game that much. We always played that carrier SAs could only be used with carrier planes(not necessarily those based on that particular carrier).
I think this needs some more clarification. |
The wording is fairly clear. It does not say "carrier-based friendly dive bomber," it says "friendly dive bomber." As long as the unit is a dive bomber, it can benefit from the ability. In the example given, Beaufighter is a fighter, so it can benefit from the ability. I know it may not make real life sense, but that's the way the game mechanic works. |
Not arguing the wording...just another instance of where common sense does not apply. Why woudl a lnad based plane benefit form a carrier SA?
I suppose a "gamer" would want to apply this, but from a historical standpoint it makes no sense. Prior to release of TF was not an issue.
The question probably should be asked and clarified in a future errata now that more nations are getting carriers and land based air.
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Jameson
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| afilter wrote: | | jfkziegler wrote: | | afilter wrote: | | jfkziegler wrote: | | Yes - there is nothing in the rules to prevent it. |
Hmmm...we have never played this way, but then we do not play the basic game that much. We always played that carrier SAs could only be used with carrier planes(not necessarily those based on that particular carrier).
I think this needs some more clarification. |
The wording is fairly clear. It does not say "carrier-based friendly dive bomber," it says "friendly dive bomber." As long as the unit is a dive bomber, it can benefit from the ability. In the example given, Beaufighter is a fighter, so it can benefit from the ability. I know it may not make real life sense, but that's the way the game mechanic works. |
Not arguing the wording...just another instance of where common sense does not apply. Why woudl a lnad based plane benefit form a carrier SA?
I suppose a "gamer" would want to apply this, but from a historical standpoint it makes no sense. Prior to release of TF was not an issue.
The question probably should be asked and clarified in a future errata now that more nations are getting carriers and land based air. |
I agree with the Major 100%.
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swarbs
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Shall I go ahead and post this question over at the other forum? I'm positive that jfkz is correct, but I guess it can't hurt to have as much clarification as possible.
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afilter
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| swarbs wrote: | | Shall I go ahead and post this question over at the other forum? I'm positive that jfkz is correct, but I guess it can't hurt to have as much clarification as possible. |
Sounds good. I guess it really was not an issue with set 1 unless someone was playing a IJN/German build with Stukas. Now it is more relevant with all the new planes.
Personally I would find it hard to believe that the SA is intended to be used with land based air although I do not dispute that as curently written it would be allowed.
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swarbs
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Huscarl has been out on the convention circuit I think so it's been a while, but here's my question and his answer to go along with what we're discussing here.
Q:None of the language in the WAS rules or the SA's themselves indicates that a carrier's expert SA can't be given to an aircraft that was based on the land base rather than on the carrier itself in the last air-return phase. This made a lot of sense with the rules as originally written. Since the clarification document, however, we've had to keep track of which aircraft are on which carrier, should we then also restrict those carrier SA's to the aircraft based on the carrier itself?
A:That would be a perfectly reasonable way to play, but as you observed, nothing in the rules requires it. (Just as, for example, nothing requires you to differentiate between two squadrons of Devastators flying off of different carriers.)
[URL]http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1218047[URL]
So pretty much what all of us were saying. There's no rules reason to restrict yourself to having only carrier-borne ships receive bonuses, but its a reasonable way to play.
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Duck Crusader
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Good houserule tho, that's how we play it.
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swarbs
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| Duck Crusader wrote: | | Good houserule tho, that's how we play it. |
Yeah, now that the rules update requires you to keep track of which aircraft are on which carrier, it doesn't even add that much complexity to the game.
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wilt57
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| swarbs wrote: | | Duck Crusader wrote: | | Good houserule tho, that's how we play it. |
Yeah, now that the rules update requires you to keep track of which aircraft are on which carrier, it doesn't even add that much complexity to the game. |
I thought the original rules required stacking a/c cards on the carriers they were "assigned" to.
OK, so Sneak Attack cannot stack, so two Illustious'sss'ss or is it Illustrii? cannot add two torps to all TBs. Does that mean that two Soryus cannot use both their Surprise Raids? I would think they cannot use them together, as in reducing ships AA to -2, but would they still be able to now reduce four ship's AA to -1?
wilt57
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jfkziegler
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I suspect your interpretation of Surprise Raid is correct.
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defender390
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| wilt57 wrote: | | swarbs wrote: | | Duck Crusader wrote: | | Good houserule tho, that's how we play it. |
Yeah, now that the rules update requires you to keep track of which aircraft are on which carrier, it doesn't even add that much complexity to the game. |
I thought the original rules required stacking a/c cards on the carriers they were "assigned" to.
OK, so Sneak Attack cannot stack, so two Illustious'sss'ss or is it Illustrii? cannot add two torps to all TBs. Does that mean that two Soryus cannot use both their Surprise Raids? I would think they cannot use them together, as in reducing ships AA to -2, but would they still be able to now reduce four ship's AA to -1?
wilt57 |
Two Soryus means four enemy ships' AA reduced by -1 die. One SA per ship and they must not stack.
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swarbs
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Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't until the clarification document that you had to keep track of what was where.
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UNC_Samurai
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| swarbs wrote: | | Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't until the clarification document that you had to keep track of what was where. |
We started wrapping the bases of aircraft in colored electrical tape for the con events, mainly because when you have five players on each side it's easy to keep track of who gets what aircraft. We didn't tell them they could transfer abilities to other player's ships; we had enough trouble getting the Tone's commander to remember his SA.
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defender390
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| swarbs wrote: | | Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't until the clarification document that you had to keep track of what was where. |
Spot on - first appeared back in the clarifications update around Apr 07.
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chesty
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| UNC_Samurai wrote: | | We started wrapping the bases of aircraft in colored electrical tape for the con events, mainly because when you have five players on each side it's easy to keep track of who gets what aircraft. We didn't tell them they could transfer abilities to other player's ships; we had enough trouble getting the Tone's commander to remember his SA. |
Those little sticky color dots from OfficeMax work fairly well, if you cut 'em into quarters or even eighths. You can write ID numbers on 'em.
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UNC_Samurai
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| chesty wrote: | | UNC_Samurai wrote: | | We started wrapping the bases of aircraft in colored electrical tape for the con events, mainly because when you have five players on each side it's easy to keep track of who gets what aircraft. We didn't tell them they could transfer abilities to other player's ships; we had enough trouble getting the Tone's commander to remember his SA. |
Those little sticky color dots from OfficeMax work fairly well, if you cut 'em into quarters or even eighths. You can write ID numbers on 'em. |
The tape worked just as well, because we could use it to mark the 9-pocket pages filled with cards we gave to each commander, and in the case of duplicate carriers we could write "Lexington" and "Hornet" on the duplicates. We also used it to errata the Hellcat card on the fly.
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