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Ducky

200 point Germany

This is a revision I made to a 150 point army I put up against my friend's 150 point USSR (it originally consisted of only 2 Veteran Tigers and 4 SS-Panzergrenadiers). I was lucky enough to get a map with a ton of cover and obliterated his tanks while putting my back to the map edge and still being behind adequate cover. Anyways, this is my 200 point revised army:

1x Messerschmitt Ace
2x Veteran Tiger
1x StuG III Ausf. G
4x SS-Panzergrenadier
1x Wehrmacht Veteran Infantrymen
1x Ammo Dump

The Veteran Tigers are the cheapest units in the entire game. 7/6 defense combined with superior armor 2, and add in crack shot (+1 on each attack dice) and it has killed any tank I shot at in a single turn. No 1 unit can stand face to face with it and not get destroyed. I had the 2 of them attacked by 4 T-34/76s and an SU-85 while hiding behind some trees. It cost him all 4 of his T-34/76s across 2 turns to take out 1 of my tanks, and even then that is the only time I've lost one of these. Way more effective than a King Tiger, and if you add an ammo dump to the mix, you get to reroll 1s and add +1 to each die result.

The Messerschmitt Ace is easily the second best fighter in the game (the best being the Spitfire Ace). It can make defensive fire attacks against any enemy aircraft placed within 4 hexes, which is a huge advantage. I took down a Corsair and a Mustang on back to back turns without much difficulty because most people forget, don't know, or don't pay attention to what it can do until it's too late.

The only thing I am wondering is whether or not my infantry is a good choice, and if I should drop out the StuG III Ausf. G for something else. I really like it though. For 19 points it has 15/13/11 dice against vehicles with 5/3 for defense. My infantry has served me well also, I'm just wanting to know if anyone sees a gaping hole in my defenses.
Lt_Vleclopity

Welcome to the Forum Very Happy

It looks pretty good, give me a bit to think about it but someone will come up with some weaknesses for you to work on, this is a great way to improve builds Cool
Angel of Death

Ow come on. 2 Veteran Tigers ? And an Ammo Dump ? Are you made of french dairy products (and I dont mean the excellent yoghurt they make) ?

Anyways, what I mean to say : 2 Veteran Tigers is very very strong.
Until the moment your opponent will decide to go all infantry, since bringing tanks is no use against your army. He will either soon learn that, or quit altogether (i.e. keep it fun!). If your opponent wisens up and uses only infantry, then 2 Veteran Tigers are just 2 very expensive pop-guns. In an 8 turn battle they can never earn their cost back.

For the sake of fun, consider -not- using Veteran Tigers. At all. With the new rules revision, I'm pretty sure they will be nerfed anyways. Try something else before your opponent runs away.


Now at the current moment, your opponent can maximally field 30 models against you in 200 points (If using platoons, this number can increase even more, though.) This will probably change with the rules revision, making it possible to field any number of units, in the future. If he's smart, he will swarm your expensive army. Then you are dead.

If you still want to use this army (and why the hell not, if you are sure your friend will stay), you must increase your infantry killing potential. One sure way of doing that is fielding Machineguns (in expanded rules only, for the sake of grazing fire) and Brummbaers. A Machinegun should come in the form of a platoon (cost reduction and great freebees). But you dont have points for extensive platooning. A Brummbaer is a bargain by itselves at 22 points.

Consider fielding 1 Brummbaer, 2 Veteran Tigers, 4 Machineguns, a Hauptsturmfuhrer and 2 Barbed Wire. That'll hurt.
Lt_Vleclopity

For USSR:
IS-2 x2
Ammo Dump x1
KV-1 x1
Hero x1
Mosin-Nagant x9

Hmmmm.....
Leader DarkAura_17

Excellent thank you, this build helped me and I won a FLGS tournament and took home a nice prize of 3 39-45 boosters. My opponent built 3 T-34s, 1 IS-2, 1 KV-1 and a bunch of other infantry I don't remember. The Vet. Tigers annihilated his army in 3 turns. Only one Vet. Tiger was damaged. Thanks a lot.   Very Happy

BTW: The Vet Tigers AI attacks are better than a sniper's and there AV attacks surpasses the Jagdtiger's attacks.
Ducky

The USSR really can't do much with infantry against that build. If he uses the US or UK I have a build where I keep the 2 Veteran Tigers, but use the German SS Elite Infantry Platoon, add an ammo dump, the Messerschmitt Ace, and 2 extra SS-Panzergrenadiers and a Mauser Kar 98. He gets pissy about it, but at the same time wants to actually beat my build.

Angelofdeath, you make a good point about the Brummbar. I always forget about it, yet I field the M4A3 105 in my US army for the same purpose... It decimates soldiers.
Cpt. John Miller

Cheese.
The Germans have so much good stuff to play with, try competing without going to excess with the obvious uber-units. Also I count 204 points in your revised build.
Glad you're here, just my 2 cents.
Wink
Ducky

Cpt. John Miller wrote:
Cheese.
The Germans have so much good stuff to play with, try competing without going to excess with the obvious uber-units. Also I count 204 points in your revised build.
Glad you're here, just my 2 cents.
Wink


The SS Platoon is 31 points, it's discounted. I just added the things up.. dunno how it's 204 but I'm intrigued now lol
Cpt. John Miller

16 Messerschmitt Ace
130 Veteran Tiger x2
15 StuG III Ausf. G
28 SS-Panzergrenadier x4
5 Wehrmacht Veteran Infantrymen
10 Ammo Dump
204 Total Points

I don't see an SS Platoon in this build. Might be a good thing to add though.
Ducky

Cpt. John Miller wrote:
16 Messerschmitt Ace
130 Veteran Tiger x2
15 StuG III Ausf. G
28 SS-Panzergrenadier x4
5 Wehrmacht Veteran Infantrymen
10 Ammo Dump
204 Total Points

I don't see an SS Platoon in this build. Might be a good thing to add though.


The StuG III Ausf. G is 19 points, and the SS-Panzergrenadiers are only 5 points each... and I thought you were originally refering to my revised one further down the list (for fighting more infantry-strong nations).
Lt_Vleclopity

The stug is 19 points but the SS-panzergrenadiers are 7, they have been recosted...
Cpt. John Miller

Oops, wrong Stug. But yes, the SSPGs and Rangers are now 7 points. so you're even farther over.
Ducky

Cpt. John Miller wrote:
Oops, wrong Stug. But yes, the SSPGs and Rangers are now 7 points. so you're even farther over.


What rules are that? We follow the expanded rules guide... Didn't know there had been any official revisions elsewhere. We only follow what the cards say... Which is good and bad. Such as: if your King Tiger costs 71 points, too bad, you pay 71 points, not 62 (or whatever it is).
Cpt. John Miller

The King Tiger has been re-released with the new price on the card, as are many others since the rescale. The only price change errata that is official outside of that are the SSPGs and Rangers(now 7 points) which were changed because of play balance issues. You can play the game however you please but the officially sanctioned game for DCI competitions is played with all revised costs and rules errata. The vast majority here and on other boards play that way and will help you get any info you might like. You will find the game is much better with all the changes.
Ducky

Good stuff. Is there any other alterations (like to the rules)? Where would I find this information?
Cpt. John Miller

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/aam/ah20050914a

I can't find all the errata as it is spread out over 7 sets, I'll try to get all the data together.
Lt_Vleclopity

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/aam/ah20050914a

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/aam/ah20070216c

and there is more, but you have to dig to find it all Laughing I think it's a secret, shhhhh
Ducky

thanks guys!
Lt_Vleclopity

3x Crocs
2x 17pdr
1x Para
1x Bren

..that would work if you were cleaver with your movements, had a map with good cover and had some luck Very Happy
Field Marshal PF

Like previsously mentioned, try playing with Mausers and Pz.IVs instead of SSPG and Vet Tigers, if to only improve your skill. Tiger builds don't help to develop an appreciation for tactical aspect, seeing as you can ussually lumber it to the objective with little resistance, 2 Vet Tigers is just cruel.


On the other hand, Germans have a big capability for what I call "No BS builds"(or "Victory assured builds), builds that are just too strong, SSPG is a common menace in tourny, Vet Tigers are more of the same. These builds will win most of the time, a lucky Soviet build would offer a compodent opponent. Perhaps i'm exaggerating. But personally, I hate fielding my Vet. Tigers(except for large scenarios) because its almost unfair. Elite Pz.IVs are much more fun to field in a build in my opinion, but fragile.


I find that without the uber units, Germany is a nation that requires a touch of finesse to play, unlike Soviets that usually abide but a "reckless rampage" doctrine, and the durable all-around Americans.
Ducky

Field Marshal PF wrote:
Like previsously mentioned, try playing with Mausers and Pz.IVs instead of SSPG and Vet Tigers, if to only improve your skill. Tiger builds don't help to develop an appreciation for tactical aspect, seeing as you can ussually lumber it to the objective with little resistance, 2 Vet Tigers is just cruel.


I never actually play objective games. We always do deathmatches. It requires a lot more effort in building and strategy, in my opinion.
Field Marshal PF

Ducky wrote:
Field Marshal PF wrote:
Like previsously mentioned, try playing with Mausers and Pz.IVs instead of SSPG and Vet Tigers, if to only improve your skill. Tiger builds don't help to develop an appreciation for tactical aspect, seeing as you can ussually lumber it to the objective with little resistance, 2 Vet Tigers is just cruel.


I never actually play objective games. We always do deathmatches. It requires a lot more effort in building and strategy, in my opinion.


AAM is more of a tactical game IMHO. Now deatmatches are okay, I don't play them so much, but objective matches(my friends and I usually use them in our sceanrios) give an element of urgency, you have to make the right move, and you better do it soon. In a deathmatch, you have a Tiger running about looking for armour kills, in an objective match the allies are forced to deal with the Tiger head-on, which makes for interesting use of the units at their disposal. I like what your doing here, I was just adding my own insight. Salute.
Ducky

I've only played 2 objective matches. I agree they add urgency, but to me, the make it the same game every time: take what can hold the marker best. In a deathmatch you have no idea what the other person will do, and generally have more freedom with what units to use.
Field Marshal PF

Ducky wrote:
I've only played 2 objective matches. I agree they add urgency, but to me, the make it the same game every time: take what can hold the marker best. In a deathmatch you have no idea what the other person will do, and generally have more freedom with what units to use.


True, but I find(at least in my deathmatches) it becomes a game of cat and mouse, with the power player chasing after what valuable units the weaker player has. The weaker player will try to "run" from the threat, trying to get the power player to fall into a trap involving luring the power units to slow but powerful unit(AT gun, AT inf). Now ofcourse it can also becomes a stand off for a few turns(believe me) where the power player simply will not pursue. Now when both sides are evenly matched, then we have a match. I actually use deatmatches for some scenarios, and it is interesting to see what happens when one side is left with say armour, and the other infantry.
Ducky

Field Marshal PF wrote:
Ducky wrote:
I've only played 2 objective matches. I agree they add urgency, but to me, the make it the same game every time: take what can hold the marker best. In a deathmatch you have no idea what the other person will do, and generally have more freedom with what units to use.


True, but I find(at least in my deathmatches) it becomes a game of cat and mouse, with the power player chasing after what valuable units the weaker player has. The weaker player will try to "run" from the threat, trying to get the power player to fall into a trap involving luring the power units to slow but powerful unit(AT gun, AT inf). Now ofcourse it can also becomes a stand off for a few turns(believe me) where the power player simply will not pursue. Now when both sides are evenly matched, then we have a match. I actually use deatmatches for some scenarios, and it is interesting to see what happens when one side is left with say armour, and the other infantry.


Yeah, I do agree with the appearance of cat and mouse activities in deathmatches. I tend to never be the mouse though, I'm too impatient. Infantry and air support usually stunts the delay time rapidly. I've found the deathmatches devoted to armor almost always have a lot of hiding in the mix (which is why we don't have those anymore, lol). I just like how not using any objectives intensifies the value of a lot of units, and adds for a lot more risky maneuvers to be shown.
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