[[[ HMS Dreadnought - beta card DONE by ND ]]]

lotharlutjens · [[[ HMS Dreadnought - beta card DONE by ND ]]]

HMS Dreadnought
Cost $8.4M
Available: December 1906

Tiornu · Re: SA's for HMS Dreadnought

It is not confirmed, but New York may also have rammed and sunk a sub, entirely by accident. In October 1918, while returning to Pentland Firth, she struck a submerged object in 33 fathoms (not a wreck, not a rock). Damage was significant, including two missing prop blades. UB-113 went missing around this time and place.
Warspite's Swordfish seaplane sank a U-boat at Narvik.

NeuralDream

I've added the image of the ship in your post, so that the card maker doesn't have to look for it.

lotharlutjens

Ah, I see, There's method to your madness. Very good Daniel-San. This SA is close to Ugliano Vilvaldi, except Ugliano Vilvaldi has a printed ASW value it uses. The Dreadnought has no such value.

Lutjens out

drittal

is ASW4 a bit high? Maybe 4 for a maneuverable destroyer, 2 for BB?

swarbs

swarbs

Speed 2

Hull points 5

Mains
Broadside 8 x 12in
14/14/13/11
Front/rear 6 x 12in
12/12/11/10

2nds, lots of little guns, 3 in
broadside 5/4/4
front rear 4/4/3

hard to tell

lotharlutjens · HMS Dreadnought

Lutjens beta HMS Dreadnought.

HMS Dreadnought Cost= $8.4 Million
Nation=Great Britain Class = Dreadnought Year = 1907
Speed=2

Range 0 1 2 3

Mains 14 11/13/11 10/12/10 8/10/8
Secon 4 3
AA 2
TT 1

Armor=7 Vital Armor= 12 Hull = 4

ER4

Ramming Speed- Once per game when this unit enters a sector containing an enemy sub, this unit may make an ASW 3 attack.

Okay I hope ya'll (Texas Twang) don't bust a gut.

I will keep posting on other ships in the works later tonight.

Lutjens out

PS I may be slow to respond to questions and discussions tonight, but will find time while I can. Life intrudes into my fun.

NeuralDream

Would you like to comment on these? http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/about3565.html

It's the set of guidelines for the stats. Maybe you would like to review these stats and then apply them directly on the ships. For example, hull would be 5.

lotharlutjens

Since you mentioned hull I will explain why I chose 4

First lets look at WAS Ships. There are some rough guidelines that I think we should enulate, In WAS the standard Hull points for each ship is...

MTB 1
DD 2
CL or CA 3
BC 4 or 5
BB 4 to 6

On the Battleships the mean hull is 5, on small old BB's such as Gulio Casere 4, on the behemoths such as Yamato 6. I think we need to do the same here. The next thing I looked at was its "Deep" tonnage (Combat Load) in this case Dreadnought displaced about 21000 tons. If you look at this Weight statistic amongst the dreadnoughts throughout the period you will see that they vary from 20000 tons (HMS Dreadnought) to about 33000 tons (HMS Queen Elizabeth) I am matching this tonnage with WAS hull points so that 20000-24999 = Hull 4, 25000-29999= Hull 5 and 30000+ = Hull 6

This would make the hull points of the different classes become...

HMS Dreadnought 4
HMS Bellerophon 4
HMS St. Vincent 4
HMS Neptune 4
HMS Colossus 4
HMS Orion 5
HMS King George V 5
HMS Iron Duke 6
HMS Erin 5
HMS Agincourt 6
HMS Queen Elizabeth 6
HMS Canada 6
HMS Royal Sovereign 6
HMS Invincible 4
HMS Indefagitable 4
HMS Lion 6
HMS Queen Mary 6
HMS Tiger 6
HMS Renown 6

This would be the base Hull points, then special consideration could be used to adjust this if a typical ship had bad seawortiness or superior flotation system or the like. These are my thoughts on this subject.

Makes sense to me

Lutjens out

NeuralDream

I think that you haven't left too much space for the cruisers and destroyers' hull points. Then again you may be right. Also, if you don't mind let's use standard displacement better, which is more common to find.

When you decide about the exact hull levels can you edit them here please? Just change the ones I have already added.

lotharlutjens

I can go to standard displacements but it will make me readjust my scale and take a little research and time. But if thats the easiest so be it.

DD's , TB's and Subs wouild have 1-2 hull points
Cl's 2-3 Hull points
AC's 3-4 Hull points
Pre-Dk's 3-5 hull points

Lutjens out

lotharlutjens

FYI in future posts I will be abbreviating ship types with the following

SS=Submarine
TB=Torpedo Boat
DD=Destroyer
CL=Light Cruiser
PC=Protected Cruiser
AC=Armored Cruiser
BC=Battlecruiser
PDN=Pre-Dreadnought
DN=Dreadnought
AO=Supply Ship
AK=Merchant
AP=Transport
CV=Carrier
CS=Seaplane Carrier
ML=Mine Layer

Most of these were standard military abbreviations.

Getting tired of spelling these out, with so many posts going on.

Lutjens out

lotharlutjens

Ok things are different when you go with standard displacement, so now I'm thinking if we leave my scale as is it will mean no Hull 6 DN's anymore. If we adjust my scale to say

DN's up to 20000 standard = 4 Hull
DN's From 20001-25000 = 5 Hull
DN's 25001 and up = 6 Hull

The classes line up as follows
Hull 4 Hull 5 Hull 6
Dreadnought Orion Iron Duke
Bellerophon KG V Q. Elizabeth
St. Vincent Erin Canada
Neptune Agincourt R. Sovereign
Colossus

I haven't reworked the BC's yet. But I like that Seems to fit Mo bettuh

You get 5 Brit Dn's at 4 Hull, 4 at 5 Hull and 4 at 6 Hull which I think is a nice spread,

You likee?

Lutjens out

NeuralDream

Looks great I think! Have you thought about hull 1,2, 3?

lotharlutjens

I don't think there will be any capital ship worth less than 4 hull with the exception of some old PDN's, most AC's and PC's willstat out at 3 with Blucher weighing in at 4, I'll be looking at the smaller ships soon. Definitely fit's into the WAS nook.

Lutjens out

NeuralDream

I would say 10,000 for hull 3, 2000 for hull 2, 600 for hull 1. What do you think?

lotharlutjens

FYI on my gunnery values please note that at range 0 there is but one number because at range 0 there should be no facing (Ie. all values at range 0 should be maximum values), The way they did gunnery values is a mystery to me in WAS. It's obvious that they based it somewhat on the bore of the gun, secondaries are a little harder to figure, for now I'm kinda guestamating, all these numbers could change easily as we progress. Also the VAST majority of secondaries seem to be casemated, so I gave them no bow or stern fire (Where it is known that secondaries could fire in the bow and stern arc we could customize each ship) But in general I suggest, for now, that secondaries be fired by broadside only.

Also, In WAS the average armor value is 8 for BB, I took this in account while calculating Number of Die at different ranges because to score 8 hits on average you need to roll 12 dice. Therefore I suggest that a weakly armored DN be given a 6-7 armor, an average armored DN be given an 8 armor, and a heavily armored DN be given 9 or 10 armor.

We should, of course, define what constitutes a weak to an exceptionally armored warship, Maybe we can think on that. Perhaps someone else could come up with a viable system before we do. Wouldn't hurt my feelings

All this work is like sex with a blister

oh it hurts, but it feels so good,

Lutjens out

NeuralDream

Btw, I've done most of this already (gunnery and armour values). http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/about3565.html
Don't you want to check if it is correct instead of starting it from scratch?

I think that in a WWI game the big ships should be a bit easier to damage than WAS. That's why I suggested 8 as the max armour.

lotharlutjens

A different point of view is this. Many if not most of the warships lost in a WWI slugfest with the big boys were lost due to catastrophic causes (Ie Vital Armor in WAS) On average most of the DN's took their punishment rather well. One way to reflect this would be to lower the armor values as you suggest but if you do, I think you must rethink Hull points and possibly give the ships even more hull points, because they seemed to be able to take a lot of Non-catastrophic hits. Vital armor would be another manner reflected by possibly lower values there. The effect would be the big guys could take more hits as long as they weren't catastrophic (Ie Vital) hits.

I will check out what you got though.

Lutjens out

lotharlutjens

On the side I just thought how appropriate it is to have this long winded discussion hashing out this or that conceptual process on what thread?

HMS Dreadnought

Lutjens out.

lotharlutjens

Ok I've glanced at your "ruler" and overall I think that's a good place to start, One thing On Gunnery values I Think range 3 shots should have a steeper drop in value then WAS to reflect the Inadequate fire systems. ( meaning pay attention to the average number of hits rolled vs the average DN's armor you should have to roll pretty well to hit at range 3 and beyond. Remember you need to roll approx. 12 dice to get 8 hits. Also German ROF was superior to the English which sorta made up for their smaller calibres. I'm telling you, figuring out attack die is pretty subjective, wish there was an exact formula but am afraid there's not.Your chart is a good place to start and we can "fudge from there.

Lutjens out

NeuralDream

Can someone sort out the secondary gunnery of this ship for each field of fire, so that I make its card? Thanks.

lotharlutjens

Lutjens (LMS) HMS Dreadnought.

HMS Dreadnought Cost= $8.4 Million
Nation=Great Britain Class = Dreadnought Year = 1907
Speed=2

Bow Broadside Stern
L Btty */11/10/8 14/13/12/10 */11/10/8
AA 2
TT 1
DA 3

Armor=7 Vital Armor= 12 Hull = 4

Ramming Speed- Once per game when this unit enters a sector containing an enemy sub, this unit may make an ASW 3 attack.

NeuralDream

Correction. The price is $8.7 M.

lotharlutjens

Thank you ND, you are forever vigilant.

Brass

In looking at the beta card, it seems to me that there needs to be some sort of separator between the numbers for the weapon stats, e.g. the L stat for Dreadnought's main battery comes out as a single number: 14131210. We know what it means but somebody seeing the card for the first time may find it confusing.

lotharlutjens

I have an idea ( surprisingly enough ), what would be the feasability of color coding the gun factors instead of seperating them, this would save yet even more space and at the same time seperate the numbers. For instance Range 0 numbers might be red, Range 1 numbers might be orange, Range 2 numbers might be yellow and range 3 numbers might be white, I know nothing about the process you fellows are following, but is this possible ? And if it is, maybe you will have a better idea on what colors would go to which range increment, mine were just an example.

NeuralDream

I had changed all cards before reading your reply Lothar. So, see my suggestion in the beta cards sticky.

Btw, colour coding is a bit problematic in the sense that the majority of people who print online stuff, such as custom cards, use B&W.

Lothar, when you find time please continue with a few more units with different layouts and nations so that I prepare the relevant card templates and flags before I give them to Brass and swarbs.

lotharlutjens

10-4, I will get on it this afternoon, I have a little stuff I have to get done, I should get a few more done at some point though.

[[[ HMS Dreadnought - beta card DONE by ND ]]]

Re: SA's for HMS Dreadnought

HMS Dreadnought