| Archive for Axis & Allies ForuMINI Specialised in the World War II Axis & Allies Miniatures and War At Sea Games |
| NeuralDream |
* A&A Deathmatch Deluxe * (WAS + AAM combined)You need four small AAM maps, two full WAS maps (or a custom WAS map that is larger than normal), and both AAM and WAS units.
Ranges for aircraft --------------------- If you use forumini navies cards, just divide the speed by 2 (rounded down). If you use official cards, the following are the ranges of the aircraft:
Sea Hurricane: 9 Halifax: 8 Swordfish: 4 Wildcat: 9 Hellcat: 10 Dauntless: 7 Devastator: 5 Catalina: 5 Avenger: 8 Mitchell: 8 Zero: 9 Val: 6 Judy: 9 Kate: 7 Emily: 7 Folgore: 10 Picchiatelli: 7 Sparviero: 8 Stuka: 7 Kondor: 6 Bf109: 10 ____________________ Map for online games: 
FAQ ----- Q: What is the objective on the AAM maps? A: I suggest you improvise. Either place an objective at the center of the map or choose something else that makes sense. In any case, the defender chooses side and deploys first. Q: Aircraft have limited range, but can they continue their movement next turn? A: No, they must always return to a base (or carrier) within their range. Exception: During the air return phase, units with LOITER can move again instead of returning to base. Q: Do I need to keep an AAM unit on an island to keep controlling it? A: You need to keep at least one AAM unit on the island or you lose control. Q: Do AAM damage counters stay even after the AAM battle finishes? A: Yes. Q: Who declares first what he buys in each turn? A: For fairness, use the following rule: "The one who won the initiative declares whether and what he'll buy this turn. Then the player who lost the initiative." Q: Do you have control of the airfield at your corner of the map? A: Always. Q: Do units with "turn 1" abilities get to use them only on the first turn of the game or the first turn they are in play? (e.g. Zeke, Koln, ...) A: The first turn they appear in the game. Q: Do units with "Infiltrate" begin at your side's starting point or can they deploy anywhere? A: Anywhere, but they can't attack during the first turn that they appear. Q: Can I deploy as many ships or subs at the same time as I want? A: No, even when you deploy units you need to abide by stacking limits. Q: What about AAM aircraft? A: You can't use AAM aircraft. Q: Can WAS aircraft attack AAM units? A: No. |
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| LuckyE77 |
thats awsome, put what are the aircraft range? Can AAm aaircraft attack a WAS aircraft? | ||||||
| NeuralDream |
You can't deploy AAM aircraft. The WAS aircraft ranges are below the rules. |
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| LuckyE77 |
Im sorry, I didnt read it all. |
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| chesty |
This looks like a very nice way to bridge the AAM and WaS divide. 
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| Europa1942 |
can WaS aircraft attack the ground units? | ||||||
| NeuralDream |
Nope. It would complicate things too much. I'll add this in the Q&A. |
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| afilter |
Looks very promising.  My boys are at Scout camp this week, will give it a try when they get back.
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| NeuralDream |
By the way, where it says tank, I meant vehicle. The capacity of a transport is 2 soldiers and 1 vehicle. | ||||||
| DaJudge |
This looks really cool ND. I'll be glad to play a game if you want to host it.
The aircraft ranges seem odd.....A hellcat is double the range of a Catalina?? |
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| NeuralDream |
I'm afraid I can't host an online match atm.
They are speeds in reality. I call them ranges because it makes more sense in playing terms. |
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| ElectricCatND |
That looks really cool...Makes me wish I had some of the land units to try this out with my group.
How long would you think a match like this would take? Also, I'm assuming that you can hold over income from one turn to another. |
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| NeuralDream |
Check the ebay sidebar on the right. All you need is 3-4 infantry units and 1 vehicle per side. Plus, one map. In fact, you can get all this with one 1939-1945 starter, which is pretty cheap. I see it at $11.50 atm there.
It takes significantly longer than a typical WAS match, but it varies wildly depending on the aggressiveness of the strategies of the players.
Yup. I use coins to keep track of the "money". |
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| DaJudge |
Ok so if a Hellcat has speed/range 10, it can make it from the airfield in the upper right corner to the sector next to the island in the upper left, attack something and then return to the airbase yes? But a bomber couldn't?
Trying to understand here...a Hellcat can fly 10 spaces and a Catalina only 5 or is that the speed rating which seems to have no bearing on the game at all. Sorry, you lost me on this. lol |
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| NeuralDream |
A hellcat can travel 10 sectors, attack and then return to a friendly base or carrier that is within 10 sectors. A swordfish can only fly 4 sectors, attack and return. A Catalina has loiter. So, it can move 5 sectors, attack or do whatever catalinas do, and at the air return phase move another 5 sectors, since it doesn't have to return to base. |
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| The Tirpitz |
I'd love to play this, but I don't do AAM.
Great idea, though. |
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| NeuralDream |
You can simulate the ground troops in a simplistic manner, like A&A the boardgame does. |
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| Pirates06 |
this looks like a very cool game.. I just don't own any WAS sets so I can't play... Unless someone could let me borrow some...
Good luck on the outcome of the game.... |
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| DaJudge |
I understand now except that bombers without Loiter are pretty much useless aren't they? A Swordfish can go 4 spaces from the airfield? Planes shouldn't be nerfed that much. 4 spaces on a large map is basically nothing, it might never see a need to even fly but I suppose if you're doing the turn by turn points, you simply wouldn't buy those aircraft, like almost ever right? Unless they can fly from the islands and then they have a little more usefullness. |
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| Tincancaptain |
I am curious about the aircraft range, is it based on speed of the unit or maximum range of operation. If it based on speed then they should not have to return at the end of the turn, and simply move like other units then return after making an attack. If it is based on maximum range of operation why is a hellcat 10 and a Halifax 8 or a Kondor 6. | ||||||
| NeuralDream |
That's why I call it Deathmatch Deluxe. It's not for newbies.
It's based only on speed. They return to rearm, just like in WAS (for example, it's called the re-arming phase, not the refuelling phase). Of course, as you correctly pointed out it's an oversimplification, but this is how WAS works and I didn't want to change it. Feel free to change anything you want with your gaming pals .
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| Tincancaptain |
Then why not base it on maximum operating range, giving fighters a shorter range limiting them to a more defensive role, and giving the bombers the range to actually be, frankly used. 
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| Greyh Seer |
1st: I LOVE it! Great Job ND!
Second, have you playtested this yet? As others have already noted, I too am concerned about the limiting factor of aircraft...especially on a large map. If you have playtested it, how has air power turned out in the game? |
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| NeuralDream |
Of course I've playtested it. If you liked WAS deathmatch, you'll love this one. If you think that you can't use bombers effectively in such a setting, then just don't use them and go for the islands that provide more income rather than more airfields  . Or take some destroyers and four transports and try to rush the objectives  . The game is very complex, so I don't want to describe strategies. I'm sure you'll find better ones playing it, just like in WAS deathmatch .
Because the operational range of aircraft is about 50 WAS maps (a sector in WAS is 5,000 yards; also a turn lasts 10 minutes; that's why a 30-knot ship travels two sectors in a turn). What you have in mind is Axis & Allies the boardgame, which operates at such scales. In WAS, if a Swordfish is to go to a destination and return in 10 minutes (one WAS turn), then it can realistically travel only up to 4 sectors and return (at about 200 km/h or so). It's not fast enough to go farther and return in 10 minutes. I'm not trying to invent a new game. WAS has certain limitations, one of which is that aircraft must fly and return in 10 minutes to rearm. The fact that fighters seem to have longer "range" than bombers here is a minor nuisance. You could houserule that aircraft need to return to rearm only if they have used their ammo, but then you'd have unbearable bookkeeping. |
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| Tincancaptain |
It is your idea to limit the range of plans When by the "official" rules they can go any where on the map, and I have no problem with this. However, the method leaves something to be desired. I like the idea of combining WAS and AAM I my self came up with a similar idea back when Task force was released, though my version involved FOW because it is more popular amongst my group. | ||||||
| NeuralDream |
I'm sure with FoW it would work in a similar way. No fundamental difference. | ||||||
| The Tirpitz |
Just put a rearming counter on the aircraft after they attack. Also, wouldn't submarines be very useless, as they take way too long to get into action? |
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| Tincancaptain |
Yes but I left the WaS aircraft alone because if you change how the aircraft are moved you have to ether change the fundamental principals of how to use aircraft or you left with heavy bombers that have a shorter 'range' then fighters. As I said earlier if you want to base the movement of aircraft on their speed you should, no you NEED to treat them like other units in that they progress across the map until they reach their target attack and then return to base for rearming. By using the system you described what you attempt to do is change one of the fundamental system concepts of aircraft in the game, but keep the rest. If you really want to change one of the underlying concepts you should change all of the other concepts related to the one you change. | ||||||
| swarbs |
Not considering that the ships taking islands are also speed 1. There are subs with infiltrator too that would be a very nice option on a big map like this. |
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| NeuralDream |
Correct observations and in principle I don't disagree, but it would need a giant map. A Bf109 with speed 20 would fly over two maps in one turn. |
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| NeuralDream |
Ok, I'll give you a tip. Starting with St. lo and Jeremiah O' Brien with a Crusader II inside, you can get a Dauntless in range to the enemy transports very quickly and have a strong foothold on your side's high-income island . It is a deeply strategic game. I'm sure you'll love it if you find friends to play it .
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| Tincancaptain |
So why not keep it at 10? During the Battle of Brittan German bombers flying from bases in France took 16 min from when they got off the ground to when they reached their targets in Brittan. Crossing the map in one or two turns is realistic feasible and not contradictory to game play. |
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| NeuralDream |
It's 10 because it needs to return in the 10 mins. The actual speed (if it doesn't return) is 20 (about 540 km/h at 4km IIRC). I don't disagree that you can turn the game into a wargame by allowing the aircraft to move realistically, without having to return at the end of the turn. In fact, I commend you for your efforts. afilter follows exactly the same logic as you in his excellent houserules. It's just that I find it more fun and deeper strategically to only limit the speed of the aircraft and change nothing else in the game. |
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| Tincancaptain |
I'm reading this as "I want to have my cake and eat it to, and I don't care what anybody else thinks." So   and I'm out.
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| NeuralDream |
But it's not the equivalent of a cake. I only explained why I suggested this variant, not that I wouldn't play yours! In fact that's how I first played the game when I received my new giant mat .
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| The_lucky_Y |
just throw in the aircraft range from the scenario grandest fleet:
aircraft do have range, to keep it simple: -Aircraft with loiter SA get 24 square range -Patrol bomber get 18 square range -Patrol torpedo bomber get 16 square range -Fighters get 18 square range -other airborne Bomb attacks get 14 square range -other airborne Torpedo attacks get 12 square range - keep track on which place they come back in air return phase - no kamikaze move allowed except of the kamikaze units note that you must count every sector on both ways(attack and return flight)and you must land on a friendly airbase or carrier after the move. this range is based on the real range that those aircrafts have but the patrol bombers get a drawback through the playtesting. grandest fleet also use a double WAS standard map |
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| NeuralDream |
Getting back to the original subject for a while, you can do the following at your FLGS to involve many players:
3 Vs 3 players. 1 CinC, 1 Admiral and 1 General per side. The CinC assigns budget and the Admiral and General purchase their equipment and play their battles. The CinC is a general advisor for both, but doesn't take tactical decisions or roll dice. |
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| DaJudge |
I definitely see the strategy possibilities here, there is a LOT to think about.
I understand the range factor now. It's a bit odd but sounds like it "works" for this format. I'm sure everyone has their own idea of how it should work but this seems "easier" to me and I prefer that over realistic flight rules. If you dip into that, you have Bf109 with only a 90 minute flight time and a Wildcat with a much longer flight time, etc etc. I can see where it can just blow people's minds, even if briefly but I get it now. I'll see if we can try this out soon, it looks like a pretty good mix of the two games. Onward |
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| NeuralDream |
Check the online matches forum. I'd love to have you as General or Admiral on my side. | ||||||
| afilter |
Changing the way aircraft move and using the large map has really enhanced the game for us. Aircraft basically move twice a turn. Once during air mission and again during air return with continous flight. They do not have to re-arm until the succesfully release their payload(not aborted) or engage in AA (fighters). In other words if you target on the large map is 10 sectors away it will take swordfish at least 2 turns to get there for an attack. Here is the current verison of our house rules: http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/about7382.html I am really looking forward to trying out this concept with our large map rules next week when my boys return form camp. |
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| Dco2US |
Aquarius and I played Deathmatch Deluxe at our FLGS today. These are some of my initial thoughts:
I insisted we play nation specific. I chose German and Aquarius was the UK/Commonwealth. Why nation specific? I have been playing AAM since its inception and I hate it when Japanese sergeants lead SS Panzergrenadiers on banzai charges! Just doesn't seem right to me. So. It turns out that a WAS UK/Commonwealth combo has way more units than the Germans. If each player can only field each WAS unit once per game then the side with more units has a distinct advantage. The transports take fooooorrrrreeeeeevvvvveeeeerrrrrr to get anywhere, the enemy knows where they are and where they are going at all times and the enemy does everything in his power, usually successfully, to keep those transports from even getting to their destinations. Also, I missed the part about about limiting the load and we played with unlimited cargo capacity. Early on we stopped trying to move land units and concentrated on sea superiority. Then the Germans ran out of ships and Brittania ruled the waves. In the whole game, which lasted hours, we only fought one land battle! And that was because I got lucky and managed to get a transport to Aquarius' island. And what an interesting battle it was! One Valentine II beat a force consisting of 1 Sdkfz 222, 1 Sdkfz 231, 1 Sdkfz 250 and 2 Mauser Kar's. I knew I could only win if the Mausers could get into the hex of the Val, which I finally, inevitably, did on turn 7. But alas, by turn 10 my infantry failed to do more than disrupt the tank and its 16 points beat my remaining 12 points for the win. At only 3 units per transport the battles would never be like the usual AAM games. Sorry if I am rambling. Let's see, oh yea, I think the air rules worked ok. But, the entire game seemed to be totaly dominated by the naval game and the possibilty of land combat was extremely limited. To sum up our game: The assets available to each side were not equal, leading one side to dominate (ending the game). It was nigh impossible to get troops to the enemy islands. The island battles involved too few troops. I hope I don't sound too harsh, I don't mean to. I think the concept has promise, but I don't have any ideas of my own yet. I shall ruminate on it. Hey!! Get that image out of your head! |
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| Greyh Seer |
Hmm. Interesting. The problem is that transports in the actual WWII could hide in the vastness of the ocean and rarely met a full enemy task force.
Perhaps making more points for land units available each turn? I mean if you think about it, it took 1/10 of the time to build a squadren of tanks compared to building even a naval destroyer. |
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| Admiral_Scharnhorst |
If you play nation specific you are severely limiting your options, and that's not what death match is designed for. I see what you're saying though, so maybe try this as a variant: "If a unit has a special ability that effects other units, it can only effect units of its nationality." That should fix your initial concerns there. You can't critique the problem with the assets available because really you did that to yourself. As for the other two concerns, those fall more under the "this is a strategic dilemma" category. You gotta play around in the scenario now and figure how to more efficiently shuttle troops. This scenario looks cool and I look forward to trying it out! |
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| herky80 |
I just found this new Deathmatch Delux version and think it sounds very cool. I do not concur about the criticism about the land battles being too small and not to scale of standard land battles. If you want larger land battles, allow for transports to carry more units.
I think the fundamentals of combining the sea and land versions are here in the deathmatch delux. I am unsure about the aircraft movement though as I am not content with the current ones as articulated by nd in this version. I prefer lucky-y's grand fleet aircraft rules that assign a speed or range per type of aircraft. I think it makes it more simple to keep track of. The fewer ratings to look up the better in a beer and pretzels game, right? An optional variation I was considering for this scenario (ahem, ND...) is that the land battles could occur simultaneously with the sea engagements. Between every turn at sea, there is a turn on land. However, this would make the land battles too slow. So, I think (without playtesting this of course) there should be between about 5 land turns between every sea turn. This way, reinforcements could arrive on an island during the battle. Does this make sense? If I win the lottery tomorrow (but I won't since my $ goes to WaS instead) and retire, I would set up a land/sea mega-map where one land hex on the map correlates to a land map setup. |
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| OberstOz |
OK, I may have missed it but at the start of every WAS turn how many pts do you earn. Is it 30 every turn with the additives associated with islands and land bases? |