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Post subject: Request for Graf Zeppelin
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I just thought how the GZ might look:
Speed:2
Armor/Vital Armor 4/9 (not that good)
Hull Points 4 (roughly as big as the Ark)
Main Guns: 8/7/6/5 (based it on Köln which ha 3*3 150mm GZ has 8*2 150mm, but I assume a cruiser has a better gun arrangement)
Anti Air 6 (she was not as good armed as the Ark)
Basing Cap 2 (numbers differ from around 33-42 planes)
SA Expert Bomber (stuka)
SA Expert Dogfighter (Bf109)
I decided against Torpedos as I have no hint that Torpedo bombers should have been placed on her
COST: 19 - the GZ is quite similar to the Princeton, but has better Main Gunnery, +1 on Hull points and -2 AA capability - I think at 19 points she is defininitly playable
Year available ??? she was launced dec 1938 the outfitting was stopped Oct 1939 - I think if she woudl have been finished without a stop, she would have been war ready 1940 or 1941 at latest.
What do you think?
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 Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:13 pm |
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I posted these some days ago
The German Carrier Air force requested by Aquarius:
The aircraft were all produced and were operational (in small numbers of course), while the GZ was never operational, as you all know of course.
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:48 pm |
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I'd love to see that the GZ is that good, but for example the
Ark had AA armament: 16 114 mm AA guns, 42 40mm and 32 12,7 mm while the GZ should have:
12 105mm 22 37 mm and 28 20 mm
So the GZ should a point less than the Ark
the Ark had 110mm belt - the Graf Spee 80mm, so a btter Armor is not warranted...
It would be nice to have 3 special abilities, but thats too much...
no flag bonus, but that could be added of course
OTOH you underestimate her guns IMHO - see my previous post...
but I hope we will get a preview soon, so we will know for sure 
want to make a bet on it...
I will risk a Richlieu...
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:04 pm |
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Yes, I agree with many of your remarks here. Not for the guns though. for all carriers in this game we consider as armament only half of the total, because it can't fire more than half of the guns. Same for Anti-Air. About the armor you are probably right. I need to check that again. I'm pretty sure you are right.
By the way check the lounge for the moderators' "applications"' topic. I've opened it again and you are first in line if you want to become one.
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:11 pm |
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Resident U-Head
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Regardless of arrangement, I'd say 18 (!) 6 inch guns should warrant a better attack capability. I'm not so much in favour of increasing the actual values, as giving it some SA such as Bristling With Guns. It should be unable of damaging a battleship, yet capable of chewing through hordes of smaller targets. Perhaps 2x 7/7/6/5 ?
Also, wasn't it supposed to carry some Fieseler 167 torpedo bombers? Though if I recall those never made it past the pre-production stage.
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:28 pm |
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7 7 6 5 seems reasonable akagi had 6 8" guns so 16 6" might offer a similar result...
The Fiseler was an all purpose plane and could be used a Torpedo bomber, but the main complement would have been Stukas, so I'd prefer Expert Bomber over Expert Torpedos... I do not think that both are OK
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:41 pm |
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RvM I stand corrected. I rechecked all stats of the Graf Zeppelin.
Haven't changed the card yet... but
...it should be:
AA 6
capacity 2
flag 1
armor 4
vital 10 (should be 9, but it was very big (50% more displacement than Ark Royal) and since akagi didn't get the hul 5 I won't give it to the GZ either, but will increase its vital).
hull 4 (see previous point)
and the juiciest part:
Main Gunnery 7/7/6/4
Exactly the same as Duca D' Aosta. I follow the same logic as all official carriers in WAS. You divide the guns by 2, and don't give bristling guns. Of course one can argue that the German guns were superior, but then why does the Bismarck has so low values in this game? IMO if they want to be consistent, it's an exact Duca D' Aosta main gunnery for the GZ.
Special abilities:
[expert dogfighter] and [expert bomb] since I doubt they made the sculpt of the torpedo bomber.
Maybe they will add a third one, but it will not be an [expert **] one.
More or less what you said RvM  .
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Last edited by NeuralDream on Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:50 pm |
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As i rember correct from various german sources:
- the sea arment was stranger than similar british, american or japanese carriers
- the GZ had fewer planes tha similar british, american or japanese carriers
- the GZ has steam catapults
From source to source differs the AA arment. But i think RvM is right with his suggestion. The main gunnery is stronger than any other (for me) known carrier. I think 8/7/6/5 is okay (good arrangment of the guns, german guns, bla). Base Cap is okay. The SAs match what i give them. The Luftwaffen-pilots had good dogfighters (so dogfighter SA) and bomber pilots (expert bomber SA). I don't know anythig about a good torpedopilot.
The Fi-167 were used during the war (12 units were introduced to Luftwaffe). Romania purchased them at the end of war.
Year of avaibility: early 1940 is unrealistic. May be end of 1940/beginning of 1941. |
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:06 pm |
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| NeuralDream wrote: | Special abilities:
[expert dogfighter] and [expert bomb] since I doubt they made the sculpt of the torpedo bomber.
Maybe they will add a third one, but it will not be an [expert **] one. |
I wonder if the existence of the Stuka dive bomber in the original set might actually make them more likely to produce a torpedo bomber to give the Germans something new. |
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:09 pm |
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| I would make a errata for the Stuka. So there is space for another unit. |
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:15 pm |
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They'll probably repaint the stuka in some sort of naval camo. That'll get them one more unit without too much fuss.
Direwolf |
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:33 pm |
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As Italy get sa Torpedo bomber I am happy with getting a Stuka for the GZ - remember we get 50% repaints a´nd another Stuka would not be that bad 
The GZ was actually a BAD design compared to others
i.e. half the basing capacity of a comparable Japanese/US/UK Carrier
big Main guns when you should keep a Carrier out of range
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:02 pm |
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| Richter von Manthofen wrote: | | big Main guns when you should keep a Carrier out of range |
Bah, my Akagi has sunk more American ships than it can count. |
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:14 pm |
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And on the construction shelves of every navvy pre the WW2 era there be some hybrid ships that have some Battleship guns and a flight deck, the Ise and Hyuga proves that plans but not in that way I think about.
here a pic for brainstorming:
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:18 pm |
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Sinker of Battleships
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Lucky Y- I just get a 
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| Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:08 pm |
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| Sink the Bismark wrote: | | Lucky Y- I just get a |
once more:
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| Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:24 am |
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Thank You! 
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| Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:28 pm |
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Master of the Mystic Arts
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It seems there is a Graf Zepplin in Set II so we will see if you boys could work for Wizards... (actually most of y'all would likely put them to shame )
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| Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:56 pm |
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