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mjc721

 

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Post subject: Who can answer me why....  Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Hi Forumini's so i have 2 questions to do with the Australian Navy in WW2.

1) Why was there no ship called HMAS Darwin in ww2? every other Major City had one for each state

2) why did we not have any submarines yet have several sub bases for 'Allied'use? (and yes we got XIV or what ever but it lasted a whole 31 days on the water)
PostSun May 11, 2014 1:02 pm
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R.O.U.S.

 
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sub crews required sub training

sub training required training subs

Training subs tended to be short range boats that did not wander to far from where they were built.

sub training was highly specialized, and fewer skills were applicable to other areas of naval warfare or military prowess in general.

I am gonna assume that when the pacific war started, shooting at and operating aircraft were seen as the most applicable skills, and with a sailor shortage, as well as limited industrial capacity, it made little sense to begin a sub building campaign, take Aussies elsewhere to train for sub duty, or transport sub training assets down under.

the UK was even pressing training subs into combat early on.

All of this makes sense to me from a war planning and logistics stand point, it may also simply stand to reason that Aussies were perceived as lacking the requisite faculties (opposable thumbs, triple digit IQ's, to large to fit in small spaces) as well as facilities by some in the RN who were making these decisions. Wink
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PostSun May 11, 2014 3:02 pm
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R.O.U.S.

 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_J_class_submarine

The Australian government had a strong desire to include submarines in its new navy before the outbreak of the war and ordered AE1 and AE2 of the E-class. The early loss of both of these boats frustrated the submarine ambitions of the Royal Australian Navy (RAN), seeking a replacement for AE1 as early as October 1914, and setting aside 125,000 pounds in the 1915–1916 estimates for this purpose, however the pressures of wartime meant there was no spare capacity in British yards. In 1916, the manager of Cockatoo Island Dockyard sent a party of ten to study submarine construction in Britain, the party returning in 1918. Further searches for a replacement design were made, but before any progress could be made, the prospect of a gift from the Royal Navy became apparent.[6]

At the end of the war, the Royal Navy looked to consolidate its large wartime construction program by retiring older ships or ships armed with 18-in torpedoes in favour of the units of the L-class patrol and H-class coastal submarines, which were armed with 21-inch torpedoes.

The J class, with their older pattern torpedoes and obsolete tactical concept were surplus to requirements and offered to the Australian government as a part of the gift fleet. Australia had already ordered a submarine depot ship HMAS Platypus before the war. Commander E.C. Boyle, RN, VC was appointed as the flotilla commander and a collection of other RN loan officers, six junior RAN sub-lieutenants and RN and RAN enlisted volunteers, including a "sprinkling" of former AE2 crew members, made up the crews of the six boats.[7]

The six submarines and the depot ship left Britain on 8 April 1919, and sailed via Gibraltar, Malta, Suez, Aden, Columbo, Singapore, Thursday Island and Moreton Bay. They arrived in Sydney on 15 July 1919.

On arrival the need for a program of deep maintenance and battery replacement became urgent, given their arduous wartime service, limited maintenance, and breakdowns experienced on the voyage out. Short term repairs being made to all boats in late 1919, while J3 and J7 entered a deep refit in early 1920 that was to last more than a year, while the other four boats completed a program of peacetime exercises, cruises and port visits from their new base at Geelong, Victoria. Practice returns show that in the last quarter of 1920, the four operational boats made eighty submerged simulated attacks with 39 calculated to have hit. Management issues at Cockatoo Island delayed the refits of J3 and J7 by three months in early 1921. In March 1921, it was calculated that refit costs had reached 73,500 pounds for J3 and 110,861 pounds for J7; the Admiralty had previously advised that the annual operating costs for these boats was 28,300 pounds.[8]

In April 1921, a report to the board gave the status of the six submarines as follows:[9]

J1 Sydney Battery unsafe and must be replaced (could not dive).
J2 Sydney Heavy engine and battery defects, to enter refit when J3 completed.
J3 Sydney Most defects made good, new batteries arrived Cockatoo and unpacked.
J4 On Service, battery due for replacement December 1921
J5 On Service, battery due for replacement February 1922
J7 New battery due in May, defects will be made good by December 1921.
The heavy expenditure on submarines, poor materiel condition of the fleet, and general cutbacks in naval expenditures in the wake of the war made it clear about this time (mid-1921) that the flotilla would have to be reduced to reserve. A plan was drawn up in July by Boyle with three boats remaining in service (J3, J4, and J7) with three laid up in reserve (J1, J2, and J5). This plan was authorised in August, and dredging, wharf construction, and reserve crews were performed at Flinders Naval Depot. The plan was expected to save between 100,000 and 130,000 pounds per year.[10]

In early 1922, the operational boats completed exercises at Geelong and J3 and J4 participated in fleet exercises in Hobart. On 20 March, the dredging at Flinders was complete and J1, J4, and J5 were steamed around from Geelong and laid up. Shortly after, the government informed the RAN that a further 500,000 pound cut to the naval estimates would be made, leaving the Naval Board with no option but to lay up all six boats. There were a number of proposals to run on a cadre force at minimal expense with the J7, the boat in the best condition, but these proposals were not taken up. All of the boats were progressively de-stored and sold off for disposal. Four of the submarines, J1, J2, J4, and J5, were scuttled in Bass Strait, approximately 4 kilometres (2.2 nmi) west-southwest of the entrance to Port Phillip Bay, and are currently popular scuba diving sites. The remaining two submarines were scuttled as breakwaters inside Port Phillip Bay, with J3 located near Swan Island in Queenscliff. J7 was the last to go; there were more proposals to recommission her for training, and she was routinely used to provide electrical power to the naval depot. However, she was eventually disposed of in 1927, and scuttled at the Sandringham Yacht Club in 1930[11] [12]
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R.O.U.S. wrote:
Unless you live your life - every second thinking about where you are going to get your next quickie 100 point game - well, then you're not really living, are you?  Wink
PostSun May 11, 2014 3:09 pm
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Flakstruk

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Post subject: Re: Who can answer me why.... Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
mjc721 wrote:
Hi Forumini's so i have 2 questions to do with the Australian Navy in WW2.

1) Why was there no ship called HMAS Darwin in ww2? every other Major City had one for each state

2) why did we not have any submarines yet have several sub bases for 'Allied'use? (and yes we got XIV or what ever but it lasted a whole 31 days on the water)


1) Darwin wasn't a big town. It want much of anything in 1941.  Pretty much a pub and a cattle pier.

2) the British Eastern fleet had a submarine flotilla attached, as the RAN was considered effectively part of that, they didn't need organic sub capacity
PostSat Jan 17, 2015 8:39 am
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'Warspite'

 

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Excellent post.

R.O.U.S. wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_J_class_submarine

The Australian government had a strong desire to include submarines in its new navy before the outbreak of the war and ordered AE1 and AE2 of the E-class. The early loss of both of these boats frustrated the submarine ambitions of the Royal Australian Navy (RAN), seeking a replacement for AE1 as early as October 1914, and setting aside 125,000 pounds in the 1915–1916 estimates for this purpose, however the pressures of wartime meant there was no spare capacity in British yards. In 1916, the manager of Cockatoo Island Dockyard sent a party of ten to study submarine construction in Britain, the party returning in 1918. Further searches for a replacement design were made, but before any progress could be made, the prospect of a gift from the Royal Navy became apparent.[6]

At the end of the war, the Royal Navy looked to consolidate its large wartime construction program by retiring older ships or ships armed with 18-in torpedoes in favour of the units of the L-class patrol and H-class coastal submarines, which were armed with 21-inch torpedoes.

The J class, with their older pattern torpedoes and obsolete tactical concept were surplus to requirements and offered to the Australian government as a part of the gift fleet. Australia had already ordered a submarine depot ship HMAS Platypus before the war. Commander E.C. Boyle, RN, VC was appointed as the flotilla commander and a collection of other RN loan officers, six junior RAN sub-lieutenants and RN and RAN enlisted volunteers, including a "sprinkling" of former AE2 crew members, made up the crews of the six boats.[7]

The six submarines and the depot ship left Britain on 8 April 1919, and sailed via Gibraltar, Malta, Suez, Aden, Columbo, Singapore, Thursday Island and Moreton Bay. They arrived in Sydney on 15 July 1919.

On arrival the need for a program of deep maintenance and battery replacement became urgent, given their arduous wartime service, limited maintenance, and breakdowns experienced on the voyage out. Short term repairs being made to all boats in late 1919, while J3 and J7 entered a deep refit in early 1920 that was to last more than a year, while the other four boats completed a program of peacetime exercises, cruises and port visits from their new base at Geelong, Victoria. Practice returns show that in the last quarter of 1920, the four operational boats made eighty submerged simulated attacks with 39 calculated to have hit. Management issues at Cockatoo Island delayed the refits of J3 and J7 by three months in early 1921. In March 1921, it was calculated that refit costs had reached 73,500 pounds for J3 and 110,861 pounds for J7; the Admiralty had previously advised that the annual operating costs for these boats was 28,300 pounds.[8]

In April 1921, a report to the board gave the status of the six submarines as follows:[9]

J1 Sydney Battery unsafe and must be replaced (could not dive).
J2 Sydney Heavy engine and battery defects, to enter refit when J3 completed.
J3 Sydney Most defects made good, new batteries arrived Cockatoo and unpacked.
J4 On Service, battery due for replacement December 1921
J5 On Service, battery due for replacement February 1922
J7 New battery due in May, defects will be made good by December 1921.
The heavy expenditure on submarines, poor materiel condition of the fleet, and general cutbacks in naval expenditures in the wake of the war made it clear about this time (mid-1921) that the flotilla would have to be reduced to reserve. A plan was drawn up in July by Boyle with three boats remaining in service (J3, J4, and J7) with three laid up in reserve (J1, J2, and J5). This plan was authorised in August, and dredging, wharf construction, and reserve crews were performed at Flinders Naval Depot. The plan was expected to save between 100,000 and 130,000 pounds per year.[10]

In early 1922, the operational boats completed exercises at Geelong and J3 and J4 participated in fleet exercises in Hobart. On 20 March, the dredging at Flinders was complete and J1, J4, and J5 were steamed around from Geelong and laid up. Shortly after, the government informed the RAN that a further 500,000 pound cut to the naval estimates would be made, leaving the Naval Board with no option but to lay up all six boats. There were a number of proposals to run on a cadre force at minimal expense with the J7, the boat in the best condition, but these proposals were not taken up. All of the boats were progressively de-stored and sold off for disposal. Four of the submarines, J1, J2, J4, and J5, were scuttled in Bass Strait, approximately 4 kilometres (2.2 nmi) west-southwest of the entrance to Port Phillip Bay, and are currently popular scuba diving sites. The remaining two submarines were scuttled as breakwaters inside Port Phillip Bay, with J3 located near Swan Island in Queenscliff. J7 was the last to go; there were more proposals to recommission her for training, and she was routinely used to provide electrical power to the naval depot. However, she was eventually disposed of in 1927, and scuttled at the Sandringham Yacht Club in 1930[11] [12]



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