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Can sea-based planes (they have no wheels) be sent to the land air base, and by so doing, be immune to enemy fighters?
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PostSat Aug 13, 2016 8:27 pm
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You mean assigned a mission over land base (ie forfeiting any mission for themselves and all remaining unassigned aircrafts)?

I'd say yes, it's the aircraft rule and I can't think of something in their SA preventing that.
The only specificity of these units is they CAN base on any island/coast sector on your side, but they can also base on land (assuming a distant hydrobase) if you wish. And they don't get rearming counters (btw do they get one if based on land?)
PostSat Aug 13, 2016 8:59 pm
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No you can't assign a sea based unit a mission to the LAB.

This is covered in the WotC FAQ.

Aircraft assign a mission to the LAB don't get a re-arming token in the Air Return Phase.

Sea based planes don't get re-arming tokens in the Air Return Phase.

Hope this helps.
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PostSat Aug 13, 2016 10:24 pm
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So a sea-based plane has to remain on the board (and vulnerable to potential antiair attacks or strafing attacks) no matter what?  That seems iffy, considering a carrier-based plane or FAS-based plane is not vulnerable.
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PostSun Aug 14, 2016 1:46 am
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hokiepastor wrote:
So a sea-based plane has to remain on the board (and vulnerable to potential antiair attacks or strafing attacks) no matter what? áThat seems iffy, considering a carrier-based plane or FAS-based plane is not vulnerable.


Yes I don't know why WotC placed a unique restriction that applies only to sea based aircraft but as Swizzle said maybe it's because they couldn't land on land.

It's an official FAQ so we have to live with it. The referee has made the call and us players have to abide by his decision.
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PostSun Aug 14, 2016 2:31 am
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What happens if the seaplane never takes off?
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PostSun Aug 14, 2016 3:05 am
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hokiepastor wrote:
What happens if the seaplane never takes off?


All aircraft must be given a mission unless they are re-arming.
You can not choose to not deploy an aircraft unless it's re-arming so all your carrier, land based and sea based aircraft must be in play every turn, to protect them you can assign them a mission to the LAB but units with airfield strike can still get to them which IMHO is an attempt from WotC to add value to airfield strike units and keep them playable.

Sea based aircraft can not be given a mission to the LAB so they are vulnerable to aircraft attack every turn.

So in answer to your question no aircraft can refuse to to "take off" except when it's re-arming. Also it can't be strafed because it is never on the ground in the air phase.
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Thanks!
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Thanks Vetnor, I had not in mind the (sad) clarification.

Here it is for convenience, from official clarification.

Spoiler:

A6M2-N "Rufe": These units must observe stacking limits when returning to base (four aircraft squadrons per sector).
If there are no coast or island sectors on your side of the map, then this unit uses any sector in your Ship Deployment Area as its base.
Rufes must be placed during  the Air Mission Phase; they cannot be sent to the land airbase or remain at their base (but can be placed "in the air" above an island base).

PostSun Aug 14, 2016 3:19 pm
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Thanks all. I don't think this rule makes any sense (why wouldn't a seaplane be able to fly over a landbase? Why force someone to assign a plane, when almost all other in game actions are voluntary?), but it is the rule. Thanks for clarifying.
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PostMon Aug 15, 2016 1:35 am
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On a larger scale, it is counter intuitive that all aircraft that can must fly every turn. There were plenty of examples of carriers holding back aircraft for future strikes, and plenty of tactical reasons to mass your aircraft for a knockout blow. This is one place where WotC got it wrong, imo.
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PostMon Aug 15, 2016 1:41 am
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It is weird and probably could (or should) have been handled differently.

E.g.,
"The first time you decline to assign an Air Mission, you may place no more aircraft for this turn. Aircraft not assigned an Air Mission do not receive rearming counters and are available next turn." Then just clarify that these unplaced units automatically are lost if the carrier goes down.
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PostMon Aug 15, 2016 2:13 pm
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hokiepastor wrote:
On a larger scale, it is counter intuitive that all aircraft that can must fly every turn. There were plenty of examples of carriers holding back aircraft for future strikes, and plenty of tactical reasons to mass your aircraft for a knockout blow. This is one place where WotC got it wrong, imo.


The aircraft part of W@S is the most abstract part of the game and and I agree with you but I do understand why RB designed it this way.

This keeps the game fast play and forces the issue. It also keeps everything "in play" and adds value to Airfield Strike units.

You can still hold back your air assets by sending them to the LAB and as long as your opponent has no Airfield Strike they're safe, if the carrier your carrier aircraft are based on gets sunk during the turn you still have to roll your recovery rolls for them so it's as if they had been left on the carrier.

So in an abstract way you can still do what you suggest just not the way you expect to.
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PostMon Aug 15, 2016 2:43 pm
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I see Airfield Strike having been added (first time in Set II) due to the oddity of the Rules, rather than the Rules being created in contemplation of such an SA.

Indeed, the recovery roll is made by any aircraft that was based on the carrier, not just those that did not fly strike missions. It is, I believe, a nod to the pilots having to make new plans to either land on a different carrier (space willing) or try to get to the airbase--and that not all will be able to accomplish this feat.

But it is irrelevant really. We have the system we have--nonsensical and all.
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Vetnor wrote:
This keeps the game fast play and forces the issue. It also keeps everything "in play" and adds value to Airfield Strike units.

So in an abstract way you can still do what you suggest just not the way you expect to.


That's right, except for the sea-based planes as pointed out in the original question, which is a sad oddity.
PostMon Aug 15, 2016 4:51 pm
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Solomiranthius wrote:
Indeed, the recovery roll is made by any aircraft that was based on the carrier, not just those that did not fly strike missions. It is, I believe, a nod to the pilots having to make new plans to either land on a different carrier (space willing) or try to get to the airbase--and that not all will be able to accomplish this feat.


Actually the planes are onboard the carrier when it goes down.



I'm surprised with you being so pedantic about the wording in ASW Threat that you choose to ignore this???

Aircraft only work in this game because they are very abstract. In the real world a plane can not take off, fly to its target across the ocean, bomb it, fly back and land, re-arm and refuel and be ready all with in 10 minutes.

I think the recovery roll represents the difficulty of getting aircraft off the deck before it sinks i.e. it goes down with the ship.

I think you can view this as a case of Schr÷dinger's cat. You must consider the aircraft are both on the carrier and not on the carrier at the same time. Smile

P.S. This is why I think the FAS is one of the most poorly thought out team units so far. According to the rules when you fail a recovery roll the plane goes down with the ship.
a) The FAS isn't a ship.
b) You can't sink the FAS unless you sink the island it's on.
c) If the airstrip is destroyed aircraft could still land rough field or elsewhere.
IMO you shouldn't have to roll recovery rolls when a FAS is destroyed, it's a lot easier to take off from an island than it is from below decks on a carrier when it's sinking, áand just fly to the LAB however the team took the quick and easy way out without thinking it through (again).
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Last edited by Vetnor on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
PostTue Aug 16, 2016 3:55 pm
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hokiepastor wrote:
Thanks all. I don't think this rule makes any sense (why wouldn't a seaplane be able to fly over a landbase? Why force someone to assign a plane, when almost all other in game actions are voluntary?), but it is the rule. Thanks for clarifying.


If the sea-plane can "for it's combat mission" fly over a friendly base, just for the sake of flying ... then their commanding officer would be fired. Total waste of assets, he should at least have stayed at their sea-base and saved the gas.

OR

Let the enemy fighters attack planes that are just "loitering" over the land air base.

It makes no sense to tell a squadron: Go hide, do nothing. Not in a war.
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PostTue Aug 16, 2016 4:02 pm
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Also, sea-based planes do not have wheels and cannot use normal runways.
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PostTue Aug 16, 2016 4:03 pm
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Vetnor wrote:
Solomiranthius wrote:
Indeed, the recovery roll is made by any aircraft that was based on the carrier, not just those that did not fly strike missions. It is, I believe, a nod to the pilots having to make new plans to either land on a different carrier (space willing) or try to get to the airbase--and that not all will be able to accomplish this feat.


Actually the planes are onboard the carrier when it goes down.



I'm surprised with you being so pedantic about the wording in ASW Threat that you choose to ignore this???


Oh, I don't know. Frankly, it does not matter whether the aircraft is on the ship or off the ship for the rule to function as written. Either way the roll happens. (Although it cannot be on the ship since it has not returned to the ship yet in the Aircraft Return Phase. Smile)

"Goes down with the Ship" need not be read that the plane is on the Ship when it goes down. The ship being destroyed leads the plane to be destroyed (even if not on the ship), so it is perfectly reasonable to say the plane "went down with the Ship." A CEO may be overseas when his company implodes, but he is certainly going down with it as well. Smile

Vetnor wrote:
Aircraft only work in this game because they are very abstract. In the real world a plane can not take off, fly to its target across the ocean, bomb it, fly back and land, re-arm and refuel and be ready all with in 10 minutes.


Yeah, we agree 100% on this. Nor does it make sense for a carrier craft to fly to a landbase and then back to the carrier and not suffer the same rearming penalty as an aircraft flying from the landbase to the carrier and back.  

Vetnor wrote:
I think the recovery roll represents the difficulty of getting aircraft off the deck before it sinks i.e. it goes down with the ship.


But the aircraft hasn't returned yet--but we can disagree on this. It's ok. Smile I would agree this is the case for carrier planes sent to the land airbase though. Very Happy

Vetnor wrote:
I think you can view this as a case of Schr÷dinger's cat. You must consider the aircraft are both on the carrier and not on the carrier at the same time. Smile


Certainly makes thinking about planes sent to the land airbase as their mission easier.

Vetnor wrote:
P.S. This is why I think the FAS is one of the most poorly thought out team units so far. According to the rules when you fail a recovery roll the plane goes down with the ship.
a) The FAS isn't a ship.
b) You can't sink the FAS unless you sink the island it's on.
c) If the airstrip is destroyed aircraft could still land rough field or elsewhere.
IMO you shouldn't have to roll recovery rolls when a FAS is destroyed, it's a lot easier to take off from an island than it is from below decks on a carrier when it's sinking, áand just fly to the LAB however the team took the quick and easy way out without thinking it through (again).


But the airbase is treated as a carrier (ship) for purposes of the aircraft based upon it. I think it is actually an elegant solution. If you are thinking of taking off from an airbase that is under bomb or gunnery attack, I would imagine it may be, while not equally so, significantly difficult to get planes in the air.

Or, thinking about it from a different perspective, it would be just as challenging for a pilot expecting to return to the airbase to have to make different arrangements and reach an available carrier or the land airbase as it would be for a carrier plane facing the same situation! Very Happy Heck, the runway may have craters in it--rough field or no that's not going to be easy. Even assuming the plane can land, it may not be able to take off again (so why not award VPs for taking that unit out of the game?)
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PostTue Aug 16, 2016 7:21 pm
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LcdrSwizzle wrote:
hokiepastor wrote:
Thanks all. I don't think this rule makes any sense (why wouldn't a seaplane be able to fly over a landbase? Why force someone to assign a plane, when almost all other in game actions are voluntary?), but it is the rule. Thanks for clarifying.


If the sea-plane can "for it's combat mission" fly over a friendly base, just for the sake of flying ... then their commanding officer would be fired. Total waste of assets, he should at least have stayed at their sea-base and saved the gas.

OR

Let the enemy fighters attack planes that are just "loitering" over the land air base.

It makes no sense to tell a squadron: Go hide, do nothing. Not in a war.


If it were an option to stay at the seabase, I would agree. Let seaplanes stay at the seabase and be vulnerable to strafing (not aa attack). That would be historically accurate and not consign seaplanes to be butchered and gift your opponent points needlessly.

There were plenty of times when bombers or seaplanes were flown off in the face of an imminent attack to protect them for a future combat or scouting mission, btw, because it didn't make sense to waste valuable assets when they were guaranteed to get slaughtered.


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