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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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Post subject: Pumped up "Expert ___" carrier builds
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Well, guys, I've been looking over the various "Expert" carriers (except GZ, which I don't have--still waiting for a potential trade-partner to respond), and I'm seeing some possible build-nuclei.
Assumptions: (please crosscheck, I may be wrong on these)
1. Tone's "Scout Cruiser" stacks (bring 2 and they work together).
2. Cat/Emily "Shadowing" doesn't stack (two Cats still only give a +1).
3. Shadowing doesn't work vs. subs.
I'll start posting 'em by category, and edit if my assumptions are found in error.
Thoughts? Flames? Other advice or good support-units to pair up with any of these?
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IJNCVLF: 'Cuz my Avengers wanna bust more'n just BB's...
Last edited by Diamondback on Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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 Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:30 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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Post subject: ASW
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ASW: USA comes in with the advantage, with a UK/USA joint for second-place. (Since HMS Fencer was a US Bogue-class, I'll also allow American use, and since many Avengers were Lend-Leased I'd allow them for RN use. If you can spare 4 points Fencer's the better choice due to "Fighter Cover"...) Expert ASW appears to be an exclusively-Allied ability... although the Japanese get a cheap counter with the Shoho/Zeke combo.
Nation: USA
Ship: 1/31 St. Lo, 10pts, Expert ASW 1
Plane: 2/20 TBF Avenger, 14pts, 4dice
Other Boosters: none
Total Cost: 24pts
Final Dice: 5
Nation: UK/USA
Ship: 2/11 Fencer, 14pts, Expert ASW 1
Plane: 2/20 TBF Avenger, 14pts, 4dice
Other Boosters: none
Total Cost: 28pts
Final Dice: 5
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| Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:31 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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Post subject: BOMBERS
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(REVISED) BOMBERS: US/Japan dead-heat, but Americans are 20pts cheaper.
Nation: Japan
Ship: 1/60 Shokaku, 20pts, Expert Bomber 2
Plane: 2/51 D4Y1 Judy, 12pts, 9dice
Other Boosters: 1/61 Tone (23pts, +1die), 1x 2/52 Emily (10pts, 1 die)
Total Cost: 65pts
Final Dice: 13
Notes: I'd expect any double-BB or sub-heavy build to hand this its butt on a plate. If Archerfish shows up, you'll be toast before you know what hit you... Other than that, could work as part of a buid, albeit with less ASW and counter-BB protection than its US counterpart.
Nation: USA
Ship: 1/25 Enterprise, 25pts, Expert Bomber 2
Plane: 1/18 SBD Dauntless, 13pts, 10dice
Other Boosters: 1/16 PBY (7pts, 1die)
Total Cost: 45pts
Final Dice: 13
Notes: Pick your companion units right, and this could almost work in a "Standard" scenario.
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Frickin' cookie crap...
IJNCVLF: 'Cuz my Avengers wanna bust more'n just BB's...
Last edited by Diamondback on Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:34 am |
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Posts: 233
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Post subject:
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The Tone's SA: Scout Crusier stacks with the Emily's SA: Shadowing.
Shadowing does not work on subs (more's the pity).
Shadowing does work for torpedo attacks.
Best combo for IJN carriers;
Shokaku
Tone
Emily
Judy
Judy attacking with 13 bomb dice.
second best combo for IJN carrriers;
Akagi
Emily
Kate
Kate attacking with 5 torpedo dice.
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TF 104/60
"Do or do not,...there is no try." Yoda
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| Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:39 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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Post subject: DOGFIGHTERS
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F6F5, my read was Tone boosted torps too--knew Tone+Emily stacked, I was using it to mean "Tone + 2nd Tone stack, 2 ships plus plane marking same target=+3". Akagi, we thoguh alike, catch being you have to be a good die-roller...
DOGFIGHTING: The American advantage shows here, but the Brits aren't far behind (1 less die for 3 points cheaper), thanks to Lend-Lease.
Nation: USA
Ship: 2/30 Yorktown, 23pts, Expert Dogfighter 2
Plane: 2/19 F6F Hellcat, 10pts, 8dice (+2 vs. Fighters)
Other Boosters: none
Total Cost: 33pts
Final Dice: 12, if attacking a fighter
Notes: Pair up with the Enterprise Bomber Combo, add a Wildcat for CAP and another Dauntless, and you've got a build. Gotta worry about subs, though, and if a double-BB can close in on the carriers you're gonna be hurtin'...
Nation: UK
Ship: 2/12 Illustrious, 20pts, Expert Dogfighter 1
Plane: 2/19 F6F Hellcat, 10pts, 8dice (+2 vs. Fighters)
Other Boosters: none
Total Cost: 30pts
Final Dice: 11, if attacking a fighter
Nation: Japan
Ship: 1/59 Shoho, 9pts, Expert Dogfighter 1
Plane: 1/49 A6M2 Zeke, 6pts, 7dice (+1 on Turn 1)
Other Boosters: none
Total Cost: 15pts
Final Dice: 9, if attacking on Turn 1
Notes: Cheap, expendable, limit of 2--I suggest going with a bigger carrier and combining "Expert Combos". If you just need aircover for subs, though, it might be a good counter for the Fencer/St. Lo+Avenger combo...
Nation: Japan
Ship: 1/60 Shokaku, 20pts, Expert Dogfighter 1
Plane: 1/49 A6M2 Zeke, 6pts, 7dice (+1 on Turn 1)
Other Boosters: none
Total Cost: 26pts
Final Dice: 9, if attacking on Turn 1
Notes: Since this is the same ship for the Japanese Uberbomber build, merge the two for 6 points more than the Bomber alone. Or in a "High Limit" game, bring two each Shokaku/Zeke/Judy for twice the hurt...
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Frickin' cookie crap...
IJNCVLF: 'Cuz my Avengers wanna bust more'n just BB's... |
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| Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:49 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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Post subject: TORPEDOES
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TORPEDOES: British own the US and Japan here. Irony is the Brits exploit American Lend-Lease to do it...
Nation: UK
Ship: 2/12 Illustrious, 20pts, Expert Torpedoes 1 (+1 on Initiative 10+)
Plane: 2/20 TBF Avenger, 14pts, 3dice (+1 vs. Battleships)
Other Boosters: 1/16 VP PBY Catalina (7pts, 1die)
Total Cost: 41pts
Final Dice: 7, if attacking a Battleship with Init-10+
Notes: Add a Hellcat for a 51pt. AA/Torp double-threat.
Nation: Japan
Ship: 1/50 Akagi, 27pts, Expert Torpedoes 1
Plane: 1/51 B5N2 Kate, 13pts, 3dice
Other Boosters: 1x 2/52 Emily (10pts, 1 die)
Total Cost: 50pts
Final Dice: 5
Notes: Toss on a 6pt Zeke for an AA-Torp combined-build. Akizuki'd be a good companion too... particularly if Archerfish decides to sneak in. Watch that ASW, and beware of BBs!
Nation: USA
Ship: 2/31 Saratoga, 26pts, Expert Torpedoes 1
Plane: 2/20 TBF Avenger, 14pts, 3dice (+1 vs. Battleships)
Other Boosters: 1/16 VP PBY Catalina (7pts, 1die)
Total Cost: 47pts
Final Dice: 6, if attacking a Battleship
Notes: Add 10pts for a Hellcat and its boosted 11dice counterfighter AA or a 7pt Wildcat for a 10-dice CAP, and a 13pt Dauntless for 12dice Bombs, and you've got a 60pt "Triple Threat".
I'll post multifunction combos later, still working 'em up.
Okay, who wants to further refine the cheese?lol
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Frickin' cookie crap...
IJNCVLF: 'Cuz my Avengers wanna bust more'n just BB's...
Last edited by Diamondback on Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:53 am |
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Has nothing to say.
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2 Tones do not stack together, although 1 Tone + 1 Emily does stack.
Tone only works for bomb and gunnery attacks. Says so on the card.
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| Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:01 am |
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Posts: 233
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Post subject: Re: DOGFIGHTERS
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[quote="Diamondback"]F6F5, my read was Tone boosted torps too--knew Tone+Emily stacked, I was using it to mean "Tone + 2nd Tone stack, 2 ships plus plane marking same target=+3".quote]
Tone's card says bomb or gunnery attacks, not torpedos, wich sucks but oh-well.
_________________
WaS 128/64
TF 104/60
"Do or do not,...there is no try." Yoda
"War is hell brought to earth by man." General Sherman |
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| Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:05 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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Thanks for the crosscheck, AQ, F6F5--revision in progress.
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| Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:16 am |
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Posts: 13
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| This is a little off-topic, but I like to look at carrier+battleship or carrier+cruiser builds to take full advantage of the Tone's 'gunnery and bombs' boost. It gets expensive real fast, though so it doesn't work too well in 100-point games. One I thing tried recently, with some success, is to run a Yamato-Musashi pair backed up by a Tone, some destroyers, an Emily, and a veritable swarm of kamikazes. With the Tone and Emily boosting, those kamikazes can toss 11 dice, which is enough for a group of them to trash cruisers and destroyers pretty quick. Once that work is done, the Tone can switch to buffing the Yamayo/Musashi's gunnery, giving it an edge over Iowa at most ranges. |
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| Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:28 pm |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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Post subject:
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Hackbar, my understanding was that Tone would boost all attacks from both Guns and Bombs against the same target you make that turn, no switching required.
Hmm, maybe a CV+BB+Tone/Chikuma (for marking two targets)+Emilys build is in order...
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| Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:56 pm |
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Post subject:
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| I agree, but I was assuming that the kamikaze groups and the Yamato would have separate targets, meaning the Tone couldn't buff them both at once. With Chikuma, though, this becomes less of a problem. |
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| Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:28 pm |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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Post subject:
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Why don't you include a 'bang for your buck' kind of stat, that would also be a cool measure of comparison. For example, if a combo yeilds 5 torpedo dice for 50 points, then you're paying 10 for each torp. So, instead of just having a 'max' kind of stat, you can figure out cost efficiency too.
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| Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:54 pm |
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Post subject:
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| swarbs wrote: | | Why don't you include a 'bang for your buck' kind of stat, that would also be a cool measure of comparison. For example, if a combo yeilds 5 torpedo dice for 50 points, then you're paying 10 for each torp. So, instead of just having a 'max' kind of stat, you can figure out cost efficiency too. |
I like the idea that you are talking about. I had considered the same type of concept concerning hull points a while back when discussing the value of a Kamikaze. For example, the Littorio is worth 50 pts and has 5 hull points, each thus worth 10 pts.
I suppose this relative value of cost can be applied to dice too. Not sure what good it would do though since so many other things need to be taken into account- like special abilities.
But for the above example, swarbs makes a good point of the 'bang for you buck' comparision. |
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| Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:49 pm |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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Post subject:
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So, here's an example. Certainly the listed builds for ASW are the 'best' when you consider total dice thrown.
Nation: USA
Ship: 1/31 St. Lo, 10pts, Expert ASW 1
Plane: 2/20 TBF Avenger, 14pts, 4dice
Other Boosters: none
Total Cost: 24pts
Final Dice: 5 / 4.8 points per die
Nation: UK/USA
Ship: 2/11 Fencer, 14pts, Expert ASW 1
Plane: 2/20 TBF Avenger, 14pts, 4dice
Other Boosters: none
Total Cost: 28pts
Final Dice: 5 / 5.6 points per die
But perhaps different combos yeild similar pt. per die calculations. These combos simply assume you are playing Allies.
Fencer + Swordfish + 24pts
Final Dice: 4 / 6 points per die
St. Lo + Swordfish = 20 pts
Final Dice: 4 / 5 points per die
So, the conclusion would be that the all-Americans are better than the all-Anglo team, but that if you are going to mix the two nations, then going for the cheaper side of the units (St. Lo/Sword) is more cost effective than going more expensive (Fencer/Avenger).
This might get a bit to complicated with all the possible iterations out there, but hey.
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| Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:15 pm |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
AHF Silver-Rated Trader
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Swarbs, I was also assuming Lend-Lease since the Brits also used Hellcats and Avengers, and don't expect Richard to do more Martlet-style reflags. As for Swordfish on US carriers--only "Reverse Lend-Lease" I recall was the few American Flower-class corvettes.
If we really wanna get nasty, there's always year-based historical restrictions, like Saratoga and Yorktown/Enterprise limited to 1 each if you have even 1 Hellcat...
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| Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:44 pm |
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Ba.. Ba... BOING!
I think this is a really cool thread (maybe the best strategy post I've read on the forum and, obviously, I've been lookin' for 'em).
What are the ramifications with Flank Speed?
It looks to me like the IJN anti-air is increased by 1 die with the updated Zeke but going beyong that on first reading is beyond me.
With the additions of the German and Italian Carriers and their ancilarry air forces do those countries warrent incuslion?
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| Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:22 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
AHF Silver-Rated Trader
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GZ and Aquila might warrant a brief writeup, but they ain't never gonna have the same Powergamer Air Cheese-Whiz potential as UK/US/Japan.
I'll have to sit down with my spreadsheet and the Set 3 cards and see what other new abuses I can come up with...
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Frickin' cookie crap...
IJNCVLF: 'Cuz my Avengers wanna bust more'n just BB's... |
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| Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:26 am |
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Posts: 110
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Mua ha ha!
TYVM D.
I think this is a cool teaching tool for someone trying to grok the air war aspect of WaS (me!).
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"...all the measures of the Government are directed to the purpose of making the rich richer and the poor poorer."
William Henry Harrison, 9th President of the U.S. |
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| Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:39 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
AHF Silver-Rated Trader
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Of course, I should also note that I tend to bias Historical, which means my Intrepids are loaded so that the 2/1/1 split is with 2 fighters, rather than the 2 dive-bombers most favor. (Once we get fighter-bomber Corsairs, they'll replace a Hellcat on each, though...)
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Frickin' cookie crap...
IJNCVLF: 'Cuz my Avengers wanna bust more'n just BB's... |
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| Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:49 am |
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