:: :: FAQ :: Search :: Memberlist :: Join! (free) :: Profile :: Log in to check your private messages :: Log in ::
Move vs. Place
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Axis & Allies ForuMINI Forum Index -> WAS General Discussion -> WAS Rules Clarification
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Please Register and Login to this forum to stop seeing this advertising.

 


Likes received:




Post subject:   (Liked by:)  Like this post
Back to top
au64

 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 13 Aug 2013
Likes received: 103

Posts: 3800
FLAGS




Post subject: Move vs. Place  Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Ok... trying to avoid an argument, so I figured I'd post something here.

First: Does "Place" equal "Move" when it comes to SA's?

For Example:
Sub Hunter: At the end of the second player's Sea Movement step, you may place this unit in an adjacent sector that contains an enemy Submarine

General Pursuit: Once per game, at the end of your Surface Movement step, you can move up to three of your Ships each one sector toward the enemy Ship nearest to it. You can't claim an objective the turn you use this ability. You lose the initiative next turn

Reason for yes:
 P37 "One Additional Movement per Turn" Specifically points out that "you may only use one special ability that increases speed or allows it to move an additional sector per turn.  For example, a Ship can't use High-Speed Run to get to a position where it can then use Sub Hunter and move again."

Reason for no:
  P37 "Abilities trump rules" Specifically: When a special ability and a general game rule say different things, the special ability wins.  Therefore you can do an additional MOVE and then PLACE as they wording is different.  You place aircraft, and only 'move' them with special abilities... you typically move ships  (exceptions are Code Intercepts, Sub Hunter, To the Rescue, and Midget Submarines).

Also if Move = Place than you can't use Avoid Engagement and Sub Hunter (duh, both say move)... however, you wouldn't be able to use Drive Off against a DD that used Sub Hunter that turn.

Finally could you use Sub Hunter if a destroyer was in the same sector as a Mogami that triggered Bad Luck?  Since it is PLACE vs. Move?

While I realize that the majority if not ALL the responses will be yes they are the same, I feel the need to question the status quo and stir the pot.

Mwahahahaha...  Twisted Evil
PostWed Jul 20, 2016 10:29 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
LcdrSwizzle

_
 Club KM Uber Alles !

MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Likes received: 345

Posts: 13698
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
"place in" and "move to" are very similar.

So, what's the real question?
_________________
Großadmiral Swizzle

Browncoat by fandom; Cossack by blood; American by birth; Virginian/Husband/Father by wife; Libertarian by choice; Human by race; Christian by grace.
PostWed Jul 20, 2016 10:34 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
au64

 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 13 Aug 2013
Likes received: 103

Posts: 3800
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
One additional comment...

If place does equal move then you should not be able to use Fighter Umbrella, Area Defense, Combat Air Patrol... since aircraft will have already been PLACED and thus can't be moved.

whistle
PostWed Jul 20, 2016 10:35 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
au64

 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 13 Aug 2013
Likes received: 103

Posts: 3800
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
LcdrSwizzle wrote:
"place in" and "move to" are very similar.

So, what's the real question?


The real question stems from a playtest comment, that I'm trying to work around (and don't want to throw out to the general population).  

But basically why can't I use Hi-Speed Run or General Pursuit AND SUB Hunter?  When I can place an aircraft and use Combat Air Patrol.
PostWed Jul 20, 2016 10:38 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
LcdrSwizzle

_
 Club KM Uber Alles !

MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Likes received: 345

Posts: 13698
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
If you want an answer to Mogadi, DD, SH, please list the SA's and don't make me do the work of finding them for you. Thanks.
_________________
Großadmiral Swizzle

Browncoat by fandom; Cossack by blood; American by birth; Virginian/Husband/Father by wife; Libertarian by choice; Human by race; Christian by grace.
PostWed Jul 20, 2016 10:39 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
au64

 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 13 Aug 2013
Likes received: 103

Posts: 3800
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
LcdrSwizzle wrote:
If you want an answer to Mogadi, DD, SH, please list the SA's and don't make me do the work of finding them for you. Thanks.


Sub Hunter and General Pursuit was listed in the First post...

However:

Combat Air Patrol: At the end of the air mission phase, if this unit is in a sector that contains a friendly Carrier and no enemy aircraft, you may move this unit to a sector within range 2 that contains an enemy aircraft.

Bad Luck: Whenever this unit rolls four or more 1's on a Gunnery attack, or two or more 1's on a Torpedo attack, this unit and a friendly Ship in the same sector each take 1 point of hull damage and can't move or attack for the next two turns

Hi-Speed Run: Once per game, at the beginning of your Sea Movement step, you can give this unit +1 speed for the turn. You can't claim an objective the turn you use this ability

Drive Off: Once per game, at the end of the Surface attack phase, choose one Destroyer or Torpedo Boat this unit attacked this turn. If movement is possible, the target must immediately move one sector away

Sub Hunter (again): At the end of the second player's Sea Movement step, you may place this unit in an adjacent sector that contains an enemy Submarine

DD = Destroyer...  Wink

You're Welcome Cool
PostWed Jul 20, 2016 10:45 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
au64

 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 13 Aug 2013
Likes received: 103

Posts: 3800
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Continuing on this thought...

Can I 'place' a midget submarine and the 'move' it with Vector Submarine on the same turn?

Midget Submarines: This unit comes with two midget submarines. Represent them with markers. Markers can be placed in separate sectors local or adjacent to this unit at the end of your Sea Movement step. Markers are removed from play after they have attacked or are destroyed.

Vector Submarine: At the beginning of the Air Return phase, if this unit was not aborted, you may choose a friendly Submarine within 2 sectors of this unit. That Submarine may immediately move one sector towards the nearest enemy Ship
PostWed Jul 20, 2016 10:50 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Admiral Duncan

 
MySingleNationClub

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Likes received: 68

Posts: 2826
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
au64 wrote:
One additional comment...

If place does equal move then you should not be able to use Fighter Umbrella, Area Defense, Combat Air Patrol... since aircraft will have already been PLACED and thus can't be moved.

whistle


Yes, but that initial placement was not by use of an SA. So it doesn't fall foul of the no two SA movement bonus'.

In answer to your original question, I really don't know. Obviously when a ship or plane is placed somewhere it had to move to get there. But we are therefore inferring that when the author wrote place it was intended that it also meant move. In many years of wargaming I have learnt that this is not always the case.

This is an inference we are attaching using common sense, and may not have been the intention.

Without definitive confirmation this will have to be agreed on prior to a game, and ultimately if it can't be agreed on, then they are not the same according to the RAW.
_________________
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today"
PostThu Jul 21, 2016 8:35 am
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
ticat1

_
 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 15 Apr 2010
Likes received: 818

Posts: 10680
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Place seems to occur when something appears on the board.  Aircraft are placed because they're not moving from one sector or another.

I'd say that placing counts as a move and as such are allowed one additional movement per turn.
_________________

Qui Tangit Frangitur

To you, from failing hands we throw the torch; be yours to hold it high
           -John McCrae
PostThu Jul 21, 2016 2:10 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
au64

 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 13 Aug 2013
Likes received: 103

Posts: 3800
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
ticat1 wrote:
Place seems to occur when something appears on the board.  Aircraft are placed because they're not moving from one sector or another.

I'd say that placing counts as a move and as such are allowed one additional movement per turn.

So then a destroyer with sub hunter CAN use sub hunter and general pursuit?  (Sub Hunter = Place, Gerneral Pursuit = Move)

In most cases I would argue that place is not the same as move, however with Sub Hunter (place) and that the rulebook specifically stating a ship with a bonus move can't use sub hunter, I can see the other side.

I did look up the latest clarifications (2015), and under sub hunter it refers to the place/move as a "shift".  This just confuses the issue more.

I guess the point of this exercise is to really get clarification on Sub Hunter, and if the powers that handle the Rules Clarification document could add that the Sub Hunter SA should read:

At the end of the second player's Sea Movement step, you may move this unit to an adjacent sector that contains an enemy Submarine

This would clear up the biggest issues and then move would not be the same as place.
PostThu Jul 21, 2016 2:21 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Admiral Duncan

 
MySingleNationClub

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Likes received: 68

Posts: 2826
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
ticat1 wrote:
Place seems to occur when something appears on the board.  Aircraft are placed because they're not moving from one sector or another.

I'd say that placing counts as a move and as such are allowed one additional movement per turn.


Generally yes, but not with SUB-HUNTER, where the unit is already on the board and is placed in (in effect moved to) an adjacent sector. Why would the SA not just say moved to an adjacent sector? This leads me to suspect that in terms of the rules. not the laws of physics, placement is not considered a move.
_________________
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today"
PostThu Jul 21, 2016 2:24 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
mnnorthstars

 Keeper of the Leigh Light

MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 01 Aug 2011
Likes received: 334

Posts: 12784
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
I think Sub Hunter was an error.  Regarding Drive Off, that's an interesting one since you're not getting any benefit.  But according to the rules Drive Off would be prohibited against a ship that had already had advanced movement this turn.  Same goes with Intimidation, you couldn't make a Sho-Go'd ship back away.

Intimidation - Once per game, at the end of the Surface Attack phase, you may choose a Ship that was attacked by this unit's Main Gunnery Attack this turn. That Ship must immediately move one sector away from this unit. If that movement isn't possible, you can't use this ability.
_________________
Capt. Strange wrote:
PostThu Jul 21, 2016 3:43 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
So we have "enter" "deploy" "[added] speed" "move" and "place" all impacting/describing the position of a unit on a map.

Quote:
One Additional Movement per Turn: A unit may only use one special ability that increases its speed or allows it to move an additional sector per turn. For example, a Ship can't use High-Speed Run to get to a position where it can then use Sub Hunter and move again.


It appears from the rulebook that the designers believed "placing" a unit already on the map into a different sector is considered a "move." Otherwise the example of Sub Hunter would be meaningless--HSR is an additional "speed" and Sub Hunter is a "place" but interpreted as a "move."

So for Sub Hunter and General Pursuit, you have two movements which cannot stack (although one is place and one is move).

As to aircraft, I agree with ticat/Duncan that the initial placement is, in essence, the initial movement and/or is not a use of an SA. (No need to argue the difference.) Ships are allowed to move and then benefit from one movement SA (unless the first move was at a +1 speed). Aircraft are allowed to place and then benefit from one movement SA.

Mogami seems convoluted because there is no "additional" stacking movement if you tried Sub Hunter on a local DD. However, it is actually simple because "can't" trumps "can", so the SA on Mogami saying "can't move" would mean "can't place" for Sub Hunter since place=move.

Drive Off is more interesting. Can you use Drive Off on a unit that used Sub Hunter or HSR? I would argue yes--language and purpose. The Rule says "A unit may only use one special ability..." That implies that the unit (the player controlling the unit) is using SAs for movement purposes. If I controlled a Murasame and Sho Go, the Murasame can "use" only one of the two.

When an opponent targets the Murasame (having used HSR or Sub Hunter) with Drive Off, the Murasame is not truly "using" the SA to move. Rather the Murasame is having the movement forced upon it (sans choice). Maybe it is semantics, but it seems an important distinction regarding which player is affecting the movement and whether it is by choice or force.

Certainly I understand there is a competing argument, but the purpose behind the prohibition of you using two movement SAs on one unit is different than the purpose of allowing an opponent to use an SA to move your unit. Rules should be read to not lead to absurd results, and I think supporting the competing argument would lead to the absurd result that the Drive Off SA is negated because your opponent used a different movement SA to their advantage.*

As to the midget submarine. I'm not sure... Typically with deployment SAs you are looking at Turn "0" (the Deployment turn) before the start of Turn 1 OR at the beginning of a turn (Akitsu Maru) OR at the end of a turn (Secret Breakout) when no additional movement is possible.

So, can you use 2x Schleswig Holstein to put a Eugenio and Trento in column 5, then use Establish Screen to move to column 6? I feel like there was a clarification on this, but I cannot seem to find it.

Regardless, the midget sub is different since its placement occurs not at the end of a turn, but in the middle. The midget sub SA was lifted from the aircraft squadron SA--perhaps that was a mistake. Aircraft are "placed" whereas subs and ships are "deployed." The Chiyoda SA should probably have said "Deploy" similar to Akitsu Maru. But it doesn't.

Does the marker use the SA to be placed or is Akitsu using the SA? I am tempted to say that a midget sub just placed could not benefit from Vector, since the midget sub can be placed in an adjacent sector which is kind of a move anyway.

I wish the teams would be willing to issue clarifications--that would deal with this issue--but that has always been a pillar of theirs--no changes or clarifications. *sigh*

---

*There is the question of Dangerous Quarry on U-2511 and Vector. Granted your opponent allows the choice to be made to use Dangerous Quarry to move, but it is the player who controls the U-2511 who chooses whether or not to use Dangerous Quarry when the conditions are present--just as that player would choose to use Vector Submarine. Those clearly would not stack.

*There is also the question of Drive Off used on a destroyer in Mogami's sector that can't move. That may be a problem as can't trumps can. However, that SA actually says the unit cannot move. That is different than a prohibition on the use of two movement SAs by the unit.
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
PostThu Jul 21, 2016 3:49 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
mnnorthstars

 Keeper of the Leigh Light

MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 01 Aug 2011
Likes received: 334

Posts: 12784
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
On Drive Off/Intimidation, I think all SAs are used when they are employed.  If Drive Off said to have the attacking player move the Ship, that would be different.  But it says the Ship moves, on its own.  It doesn't have a choice, but neither does a Warspite rolling a 1 have a choice of not moving at speed-2.  And neither does Prince of Wales have a choice of using an SA to roll -3 dice.  But, they're still using those SAs.  Relevant to the conversation, the Mogami'd Murasame is using Bad Luck.
_________________
Capt. Strange wrote:
PostThu Jul 21, 2016 4:52 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
I think the important distinction is which player is causing the movement / "use" of the SA. It seems a ridiculous result that SAs of your opponent will be negated because you used an advantageous SA of your own. I highly doubt that rule was intended to allow one to thwart Drive Off because Sub Hunter was used.

Oddly enough, I wrote the briefs in a relatively significant case (at least locally politically) that hinged on the definition of "use." Not identical issues, but it is not the first time I have contemplated "use!" Laughing

With Drive Off, IMHO the Murasame would not be "using" Drive Off so much as reacting to its use by another unit/player. Otherwise, a unit hit by Caio Duilio is "using" Covering Fire, or a unit hit by Duke of York is "using" Crippling Salvo. The language does not really fit. Certainly the opposing units are being impacted/effected by the SAs, but not really using them.

As an aside: To paraphrase some famous advice... "If you have the rules, hammer the rules. If you have the policy, hammer the policy. If you have neither, hammer the table." Smile
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
PostThu Jul 21, 2016 5:22 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
mnnorthstars

 Keeper of the Leigh Light

MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 01 Aug 2011
Likes received: 334

Posts: 12784
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
I agree that it doesn't make sense, and it's likely an unintended consequence.  And imagine how easy it is to forget earlier use of an SA by the time you get to the end of the surface phase and have someone start pushing your ships around.
_________________
Capt. Strange wrote:
PostFri Jul 22, 2016 12:27 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
mnnorthstars wrote:
I agree that it doesn't make sense, and it's likely an unintended consequence.  And imagine how easy it is to forget earlier use of an SA by the time you get to the end of the surface phase and have someone start pushing your ships around.


No kidding.

Andypalmer was always trying to work on a W@S 2.0 rule set that clarified SAs for consistency and tried to do away with weird interactions like this or provide clarity in SA text. Would be near impossible to play without custom cards, but it was a fine idea.
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
PostFri Jul 22, 2016 3:21 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
au64

 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 13 Aug 2013
Likes received: 103

Posts: 3800
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Solomiranthius wrote:
 With Drive Off, IMHO the Murasame would not be "using" Drive Off so much as reacting to its use by another unit/player. Otherwise, a unit hit by Caio Duilio is "using" Covering Fire, or a unit hit by Duke of York is "using" Crippling Salvo. The language does not really fit. Certainly the opposing units are being impacted/effected by the SAs, but not really using them.


With Drive Off and Intimidation though, they state that they move "if able".  I believe that this includes having already been moved with an SA.  Otherwise by the same logic I could use both Intimidate AND drive off on the same unit to force it back 2 sectors.

As for placing planes... (again putting my rules lawyer hat on) they are 'on' the map.  A plane on a carrier counts towards the stacking limit in a sector after the air mission phase... so when you "place" a plane you are "moving" it.  However, even if place=move a unit can be given one extra movement thus would be able to use Fighter Umbrella, etc...

In order to continue to keep the game simple, I think that move does not equal place.  This clarifies and simplifies a great many SAs and their interaction.

The only question being the Sub-Hunter SA...
PostFri Jul 22, 2016 3:24 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
But move does equal place because the Rulebook says as much in giving its example of HSR and sub hunter.

Quote:
For example, a Ship can't use High-Speed Run to get to a position where it can then use Sub Hunter and move again.


There can be no clearer indication that for the purposes of Sub Hunter (and likely any surface ship SA that says "place") that place equals move.

If place equals move, as you said, there is no problem with plane interactions since each unit gets two movements per turn.

Drive Off and Intimidation... well they are different SA names, so they could stack. I do not see that impacting my analysis of "use" as I see it having been intended and used. Wink One could argue that a player can only use one SA to move each of his/her opponent's ships as well.  

However, were both Drive Off and Intimidation WotC SAs, I am certain they would have clarified that only one movement can be imposed on one opponent's unit a turn.
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
PostFri Jul 22, 2016 3:31 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
weedsrock2

 
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Likes received: 909

Posts: 36854
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Solomiranthius wrote:

It appears from the rulebook that the designers believed "placing" a unit already on the map into a different sector is considered a "move." Otherwise the example of Sub Hunter would be meaningless--HSR is an additional "speed" and Sub Hunter is a "place" but interpreted as a "move."

So for Sub Hunter and General Pursuit, you have two movements which cannot stack (although one is place and one is move).

As to aircraft, I agree with ticat/Duncan that the initial placement is, in essence, the initial movement and/or is not a use of an SA. (No need to argue the difference.) Ships are allowed to move and then benefit from one movement SA (unless the first move was at a +1 speed). Aircraft are allowed to place and then benefit from one movement SA.



I agree with everything Solo has said. What I pulled out here is the core KISS of the matter. The rest is just rules lawyering IMO.


_________________

The IJN Carrier Liberation Force - "Because We Care"
Join the IJNCVLF. Service Guarantees Citizenship!
PostFri Jul 22, 2016 5:04 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic



   Axis & Allies ForuMINI Forum Index » WAS General Discussion -> WAS Rules Clarification

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Editor's Choice
Forumini Generals
All AAM cards
All AAAF Cards
All War At Sea Cards
Forumini Admirals
A20 World Rankings
1. Jcmonson 1066
1. Bean965 1038
3. Vergilius 1024
WAS World Rankings
1. Admiral Wannabee 1240
2. mnnorthstars 1170
3. Azrael 1120
AAM World Rankings
1. Lil Snips 1096
2. Tripwire 1021
3. Kawolski 1010
Friends
Official WoTC site
Richard Baker's new Blog
Le Forum de A&ANM
Riverside Gaming
A&A Underground
Top posters
Brigman 42738
weedsrock2 36854
Flakstruk 35335
RAEVSKI 26750
firesdstny 26685
Asbestos 24554
SWO_Daddy 23223
Solomiranthius 19325
NeuralDream 18234
nrnstraswa 17161
herky80 16512
Lt_V 16301
jfkziegler 15353
Swished3 14762
carrion 14490
LcdrSwizzle 13698
packertim 13611
DaJudge 13360
mnnorthstars 12784
The_lucky_Y 12511
danaussie 12161
Shinnentai 11688
hokiepastor 10867


Forumini Newsletter
Issue #10 (Sep. 2013)
Issue #9 (Sep. 2012)
Issue #8 (Dec. 2011)
Issue #7 (Sep. 2011)
Issue #6 (Apr. 2011)
Issue #5 (Christmas 2010)
Issue #4 (Dec. 2010)
Issue #3 (Jul. 2010)
Issue #2 (Apr. 2010)
Issue #1 (Feb. 2010)


Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Theme by: :: Cosmic Distortion ::
Powered by phpBB © 2001 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum