:: :: FAQ :: Search :: Memberlist :: Join! (free) :: Profile :: Log in to check your private messages :: Log in ::
Lay Smoke Screen
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Axis & Allies ForuMINI Forum Index -> WAS General Discussion -> WAS Rules Clarification
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Please Register and Login to this forum to stop seeing this advertising.

 


Likes received:




Post subject:   (Liked by:)  Like this post
Back to top
Jakk24

 
MySingleNationClub

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Likes received: 38

Posts: 131
FLAGS




Post subject: Lay Smoke Screen  Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Question:
As you know, some ships have the SA „Lay Smoke Screen” instead of making attack during the Surface Attack Phase.
Ship within Smoke Screen have concealment.

Is the Smoke Screen during the phase when it was established valid or the round after.
I guess due to simultaneous action within the phase not. Am I right?
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 8:55 am
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
CommanderSam

 Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

MySingleNationClub

Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Likes received: 21

Posts: 997
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Smoke screen is active from the very instant it is created to the enf of next round.

It is one of the game mechanics that has to be handled very carefully in timing, especially regarding initiative.
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 10:52 am
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Jakk24

 
MySingleNationClub

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Likes received: 38

Posts: 131
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Just for my understanding.
According your explanation it would be wise then, that the unit with SA “Lay Smoke Screen” activate his ability as the first action of the player in the surface attack round.
But If I do not have initiative, it could be that my opponent could do his surface attack first without penality before I can activate the smoke screen.
Correct?
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 11:03 am
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Richter von Manthofen

Gnome Fighter Ace
 Moderator (here to help you!)

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Likes received: 56

Posts: 5466
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
If you go first, you would shoot with your ships during your surface attack phase and as last action activate your smokescreen. Your opponent, who goes after you would have to face the negative effects of the smoke.

If you go second, you would also attack first and lay the smoke afterwards - though your opponent is no longer affected in his attacks (as those are done before). It might make sense to lay smoke as the submarine attack phase is coming afterwards for your opponent too (his torpedo attacks are affected)

Remember Smoke stas for the next turn too, so lay your smoke in a way it does not hinder you NEXT turn.
_________________
[img.]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Animated_gun_turret.gif[/img]

Lieber eine flotte Rote als die rote Flotte!
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 11:38 am
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Richter von Manthofen

Gnome Fighter Ace
 Moderator (here to help you!)

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Likes received: 56

Posts: 5466
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
If you go first, you would shoot with your ships during your surface attack phase and as last action activate your smokescreen. Your opponent, who goes after you would have to face the negative effects of the smoke.

If you go second, you would also attack first and lay the smoke afterwards - though your opponent is no longer affected in his attacks (as those are done before). It might make sense to lay smoke as the submarine attack phase is coming afterwards for your opponent too (his torpedo attacks are affected)

Remember Smoke stas for the next turn too, so lay your smoke in a way it does not hinder you NEXT turn.
_________________
[img.]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Animated_gun_turret.gif[/img]

Lieber eine flotte Rote als die rote Flotte!
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 11:38 am
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jakk24

 
MySingleNationClub

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Likes received: 38

Posts: 131
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
OK, understood.
But for my ships within the smoke Screen I do not suffer from penalities eg. concealment roll.
So I can activate the smoke Screen before or after without suffering from concealment rolls.
It's only a good tactic when I have won the initiative.
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 11:59 am
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Solomiranthius

_
 
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Likes received: 766

Posts: 19325
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
If you activate smoke screen before you fire any ships, then it affects you too. If the smoke is between one of your units and an enemy unit, your LOS is blocked just as their's is. So that is why players usually wait until they have used all available attacks before laying smoke.
_________________


"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 12:46 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Richter von Manthofen

Gnome Fighter Ace
 Moderator (here to help you!)

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Likes received: 56

Posts: 5466
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Jakk24 wrote:
OK, understood.
But for my ships within the smoke Screen I do not suffer from penalities eg. concealment roll.
So I can activate the smoke Screen before or after without suffering from concealment rolls.
It's only a good tactic when I have won the initiative.


No only if you LOST init, because the loser of the init roll goes first.
_________________
[img.]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Animated_gun_turret.gif[/img]

Lieber eine flotte Rote als die rote Flotte!
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 1:13 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jakk24

 
MySingleNationClub

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Likes received: 38

Posts: 131
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Is that really true? When I look into the advance rules there is following describtion:

Fog, Smoke, and Squalls: You can trace line of sight into or out of a sector containing fog, smoke screens, or squalls, but not through it.
Fog, squalls, and smoke screens are considered to completely fill the sector that they occupy. A sight line is blocked if it passes through any part of a sector that contains a smoke screen, squall, or fog. Units in a sector filled with fog, smoke screens, or squalls can fire out of the sector without penalty. Enemy units firing into a sector with fog, smoke
screens, or squalls attack with no penalty, but the target is allowed a concealment roll to make the attack miss. To make a concealment roll, roll a die. On a 5 or 6, the attack misses the target regardless of how many successes the attacker rolls. If both the attacker and the target are in the same sector, the concealment roll succeeds only on a roll of 6.


According this rule, your Units within the smoke Screen can fire out of the sector without penalty.
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 1:41 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
ticat1

_
 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 15 Apr 2010
Likes received: 818

Posts: 10680
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Let's say you lost initiative

You've put your battleship in the sector behind a unit that can lay smoke.  In the surface attack phase, you can shot with your battleship and then lay smoke after.  The screen immediately blocks line of sight through  sector so it instantly protects your ship from your opponent in his surface attack phase.  Your units inside the screen also get a saving roll if they're attacked.  On your next turn, you can then move your battleship into the screen and it'll still be able to shoot out of it and will get a saving roll if it's attacked.

If you win initiative and lay your screens, you'll still be able to take advantage of the saving rolls on the next attack phase
_________________

Qui Tangit Frangitur

To you, from failing hands we throw the torch; be yours to hold it high
           -John McCrae
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 1:42 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Richter von Manthofen

Gnome Fighter Ace
 Moderator (here to help you!)

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Likes received: 56

Posts: 5466
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
I think we are speaking of two different (three?) thigs here.

I try to break it down:

A) Init - simple roll init die and add bonusses - winner goes second (moves second, fires second)

B) Smoke prevents LOS through the hex.

lets assu,m ethe following situation

BB DD/ __/SSDD1 (Smoker) / DD2 BB

Blue has lost the init roll and its after movement.

the blue BB fires and hits the red BB, Blue DD2 launches torpedoes (no hit). Then blue DD1 lays Smoke.

ITs Reds turn: BB Red has no LOS to Blues BB or DD2, but can fire on blue DD2. This one has concealment and avoids a hit on a roll of 5 and 6. SS red then can fire on all Blue units, but if it fires on DD1; DD1 avoids a hit on a roll of 6. SS red decides to shoot at DD2 blue.
_________________
[img.]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Animated_gun_turret.gif[/img]

Lieber eine flotte Rote als die rote Flotte!
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 4:37 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Richter von Manthofen

Gnome Fighter Ace
 Moderator (here to help you!)

MySingleNationClub
MySpecialCauseClub

Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Likes received: 56

Posts: 5466
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
I think we are speaking of two different (three?) thigs here.

I try to break it down:

A) Init - simple roll init die and add bonusses - winner goes second (moves second, fires second)

B) Smoke prevents LOS through the hex.

lets assu,m ethe following situation

BB DD/ __/SSDD1 (Smoker) / DD2 BB

Blue has lost the init roll and its after movement.

the blue BB fires and hits the red BB, Blue DD2 launches torpedoes (no hit). Then blue DD1 lays Smoke.

ITs Reds turn: BB Red has no LOS to Blues BB or DD2, but can fire on blue DD2. This one has concealment and avoids a hit on a roll of 5 and 6. SS red then can fire on all Blue units, but if it fires on DD1; DD1 avoids a hit on a roll of 6. SS red decides to shoot at DD2 blue.
_________________
[img.]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Animated_gun_turret.gif[/img]

Lieber eine flotte Rote als die rote Flotte!
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 4:37 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
R.O.U.S.

 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Likes received: 119

Posts: 5774
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Jakk24 wrote:

According this rule, your Units within the smoke Screen can fire out of the sector without penalty.


True.

When looking at game maps carefully, you may find that it is easy to block the Line of Sight - preventing any attack - even if you dont mean to.

with smoke, as soon as you use it, it takes effect, so you must be careful not to block your own attacks.

As you found in the rules:
Jakk24 wrote:

Fog, Smoke, and Squalls: You can trace line of sight into or out of a sector containing fog, smoke screens, or squalls, but not through it.
:
Fog, squalls, and smoke screens are considered to completely fill the sector that they occupy. A sight line is blocked if it passes through any part of a sector that contains a smoke screen, squall, or fog.





A T-27 in the sector with the Red Arrowhead (f7) that activates its smoke screen BEFORE the Lutzow(e7) attacks would block LOS to the Roberts (g6).

It is a Good idea, first or second player, to not attack with units that can make smoke until the end of your attacks. You may want smoke in a sector (based on how your attacks turn out) that you were not planning on at the start of the turn.
_________________
R.O.U.S. wrote:
Unless you live your life - every second thinking about where you are going to get your next quickie 100 point game - well, then you're not really living, are you?  Wink
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 6:29 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Jakk24

 
MySingleNationClub

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Likes received: 38

Posts: 131
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
OK, understood.
But I think in some cases you can misuse this rule I think.
Just an example.

I have the battleship Gneisenau and the T27 destroyer in the same sector which is OK according the rules (2 own ships allowed in one sector).

With the T27 I could use the SA "Lay Smoke Screen" every turn or every 2nd turn in order to maintain a smoke Screen in its sector. The battleship could always fire out of this sector without Penalty (w/o concealement role) but Units from outside with Penalty (concealement role).

e.g. I could always move my small fleet (T27 with Gneisenau in same sector) together as far as to keep enemy ships always minimum 1 sector away, lay smoke Screens each turn and all units from outside suffering from concealement but my ship could always fire out without any Penalty.
My ship has only a Penalty if I would attack an enemy ship within the same sector (0).

Is that exactly the rule's meaning?
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 10:07 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
ticat1

_
 
MySingleNationClub
MyTheaterClub

Joined: 15 Apr 2010
Likes received: 818

Posts: 10680
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Jakk24 wrote:
OK, understood.
But I think in some cases you can misuse this rule I think.
Just an example.

I have the battleship Gneisenau and the T27 destroyer in the same sector which is OK according the rules (2 own ships allowed in one sector).

With the T27 I could use the SA "Lay Smoke Screen" every turn or every 2nd turn in order to maintain a smoke Screen in its sector. The battleship could always fire out of this sector without Penalty (w/o concealement role) but Units from outside with Penalty (concealement role).

e.g. I could always move my small fleet (T27 with Gneisenau in same sector) together as far as to keep enemy ships always minimum 1 sector away, lay smoke Screens each turn and all units from outside suffering from concealement but my ship could always fire out without any Penalty.
My ship has only a Penalty if I would attack an enemy ship within the same sector (0).

Is that exactly the rule's meaning?


Yes this is the case.  Remember, though, that doing this means you don't get to fire any of the destroyer's weapon systems
_________________

Qui Tangit Frangitur

To you, from failing hands we throw the torch; be yours to hold it high
           -John McCrae
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 10:32 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Jakk24

 
MySingleNationClub

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Likes received: 38

Posts: 131
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Ok, many thanks to all for your comments which helped me a lot for my understanding!
PostWed Jan 14, 2015 10:44 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
SJG Gamer

 Former US Navy Gunners-Mate here


Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Likes received: 40

Posts: 2239
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
My friends & I play War At Sea on Saturdays and often on Sundays Here in Jacksonville.  We have many fun and interesting games.  
I have Several Questions about Smokescreens/storms/fog, etc:

1.  Does the SA Improved Radar allow the unit so equipped to ignore the effects of smoke, storms, etc?

2.  If a ship has the SA Radar Fire Control, does it get to ignore any of the effects of smoke, storms, etc?

3.  Several ships in W@S have the SA Scout Planes or Scout Cruiser.
Can a ship fire its guns at a target that is on the other side of smoke/storms/fog/islands if the target is being spotted by the Gotland or Tone, etc?

Thanks
Cheers,
_________________
Darn the Torpedoes; full speed ahead!
Victory is blasting hostile ships out of the water before they blast you out of the water...
PostSun Mar 22, 2015 11:57 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
CommanderSam

 Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

MySingleNationClub

Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Likes received: 21

Posts: 997
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
SJG Gamer wrote:
My friends & I play War At Sea on Saturdays and often on Sundays Here in Jacksonville.  We have many fun and interesting games.  
I have Several Questions about Smokescreens/storms/fog, etc:

1.  Does the SA Improved Radar allow the unit so equipped to ignore the effects of smoke, storms, etc?


Yes, because all this phenomena give the same game effect : concealment (and LOS block)

Improved Radar
This unit can attack enemy units that have concealment without a penalty. Fog, smoke screens, and squalls don't block this unit's ability to trace a line of sight to an enemy unit.

SJG Gamer wrote:
2.  If a ship has the SA Radar Fire Control, does it get to ignore any of the effects of smoke, storms, etc?


No, this SA is only a boost to MG stats (extra attack die).

Radar Fire Control While undamaged, this unit rolls one extra attack die when making Main Gunnery attacks.

SJG Gamer wrote:
3.  Several ships in W@S have the SA Scout Planes or Scout Cruiser.
Can a ship fire its guns at a target that is on the other side of smoke/storms/fog/islands if the target is being spotted by the Gotland or Tone, etc?


No, in the same way Radar Fire Control, Scout Cruiser is an attack boost. Scout planes are carrier-like airplane tokens that behave like aircrafts.
Quite historical, at the time artillery control at sea by airplanes was very difficult (relative movement very difficult to assess, which is not the case on ground with non or slow moving targets, already done during WW1).

From a general point of view, the SA say what they do (in addition or exception to the rulebook), do not try to guess if they do something else, they don't (except synergic comboes =SA triggering the applicability of another).

If you want a particular scenario, you can house rule these SA entitle targetting beyond concealment. I think there is something like that in the optionnal night rules.
PostMon Mar 23, 2015 3:46 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
SJG Gamer

 Former US Navy Gunners-Mate here


Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Likes received: 40

Posts: 2239
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Bravo!  Thanks for the information.  I was sure on the Improved Radar, but not sure if RadarFireControl allowed any ability to see thru smoke.
Cheers
_________________
Darn the Torpedoes; full speed ahead!
Victory is blasting hostile ships out of the water before they blast you out of the water...
PostMon Mar 23, 2015 11:58 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Commander McGuire

 

Joined: 26 Apr 2016
Likes received: 7

Posts: 30
FLAGS




Post subject: Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
Great info and clarity. Thank you.

PostThu Apr 28, 2016 9:36 pm
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic



   Axis & Allies ForuMINI Forum Index » WAS General Discussion -> WAS Rules Clarification

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Editor's Choice
Forumini Generals
All AAM cards
All AAAF Cards
All War At Sea Cards
Forumini Admirals
A20 World Rankings
1. Jcmonson 1066
1. Bean965 1038
3. Vergilius 1024
WAS World Rankings
1. Admiral Wannabee 1240
2. mnnorthstars 1170
3. Azrael 1120
AAM World Rankings
1. Lil Snips 1096
2. Tripwire 1021
3. Kawolski 1010
Friends
Official WoTC site
Richard Baker's new Blog
Le Forum de A&ANM
Riverside Gaming
A&A Underground
Top posters
Brigman 42738
weedsrock2 36854
Flakstruk 35335
RAEVSKI 26750
firesdstny 26685
Asbestos 24554
SWO_Daddy 23223
Solomiranthius 19325
NeuralDream 18234
nrnstraswa 17161
herky80 16512
Lt_V 16301
jfkziegler 15353
Swished3 14762
carrion 14490
LcdrSwizzle 13698
packertim 13611
DaJudge 13360
mnnorthstars 12784
The_lucky_Y 12511
danaussie 12161
Shinnentai 11688
hokiepastor 10867


Forumini Newsletter
Issue #10 (Sep. 2013)
Issue #9 (Sep. 2012)
Issue #8 (Dec. 2011)
Issue #7 (Sep. 2011)
Issue #6 (Apr. 2011)
Issue #5 (Christmas 2010)
Issue #4 (Dec. 2010)
Issue #3 (Jul. 2010)
Issue #2 (Apr. 2010)
Issue #1 (Feb. 2010)


Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Theme by: :: Cosmic Distortion ::
Powered by phpBB © 2001 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum