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Post subject: Ju 87G Stuka
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You're welcome Ren.
Alright so...
Its a Ju 87 with two 37mm cannons instead of bombs, should be easy.
I'm a little torn between either a 4 or 5 MG rating, not sure how to rate the 37mms. Comparing it to other heavy strafers the Beaufighter had four 20mms and six .303s and MG 4, while the B-25 had 8, sometimes 12, forward firing .50 cals and MG 5.
The 87G was armed with the BK 37 cannon, which while apparently having similar muzzle velocities to the 20mm had a shell that was nearly twice as wide and more than twice as long as the 20mm shells used in the Beaufighter's Hispano Mk. IIs and the HE shells were just under a pound and a half in weight (640g) Personally I'm inclined to MG 5 mainly because it is the ONLY attack this unit will have and those are some damn heavy cannons. Should this unit have Expert Strafer? Of course. Should it have Heavy Strafer... well, I think it should have a range 1 MG attack, but I think it should be available more than once per game so I'm thinking a range 1 value of 4. This plane will be the nightmare of destroyers, auxiliaries, and torpedo boats, but not much else which, in my opinion, really limits its value.
This leaves us with:
Ju 87G Stuka
January 1943
Patrol Bomber? Nothing really seems to fit here.
MG: 5/4
Armor: 4/7/1
SAs:
Land-based
Expert Strafer (per Beaufighter)
6 points, maybe 5. Its far less useful in the local sector than the standard Ju 87B, but it does have a semi-useful range 1 value. Also note that there currently exist no Expert SAs that could boost its attack.
Any reason why these couldn't base off of GZ or Aquila considering the 87B and 87R2 can? Would another SA needed to be added to get it across if it can? Maybe 'Stuka: Units with Stuka Operations may base this unit' |
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 Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:11 am |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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I'd say if it gets Expert Strafer then having a range one attack only once per game is fine.
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:24 am |
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Well......
2 - 37mm cannons
25 aircraft in a squad.
That's 50 - 37mm cannons, yeh, sounds like a nightmare for Aux's, destroyers and anythng else that's lightly armored.
I would rate them as a fighter, and give them a low AA value. (they could still shoot aircraft after all, just not very wel)
CV opeerations....umm,....i dunno. I'd assume the gun pods would hinder the ability to make a folding wing variant.....i dunno. |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:28 am |
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Posts: 805
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I don't see how gun pods would hinder a folding wing variant anymore than bombs. Gun pods are detachable.
I don't see them having an AA value, yes, they had guns, but they didn't exactly have the speed or climb rate to go after anything and with only 6 rounds per cannon I don't think they'd really be a threat to something more agile than a tank or a ship. Any AA value would probably be too low it include I think.
Not sure why Expert Strafer would preclude them from having an all the time range 1 gun attack. Expert Strafer really just turns these things into bombers with a very low bomb attack and no ability to benefit from Expert SAs. These are really heavy guns, much more deserving of a range 1 attack value than the .50 cals on the B-25.
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:40 am |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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Post subject:
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| Asbestos wrote: | | Not sure why Expert Strafer would preclude them from having an all the time range 1 gun attack. Expert Strafer really just turns these things into bombers with a very low bomb attack and no ability to benefit from Expert SAs. These are really heavy guns, much more deserving of a range 1 attack value than the .50 cals on the B-25. |
I'm not saying that it would necessarily preclude them from having more than one range one attack, I'm just saying that I think it should.
There's already an SA in the game allowing for range one strafing, it's once per game, why change it?
With one range one attack they're good enough at a low point value as long as they have a useful local strafing ability which Expert Strafer gives them. No need to make awesome units, just as long as they are useful.
The 37mm was larger than the .50 cals, but not larger than the 75mm cannon carried in some B-25 variants.
And isn't a range one attack is already stretching the effective range of these attacks in reality anyway?
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:53 am |
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I think the Stuka would be a special case. Since....strafing is all it'd do. It's not like it'd be a particular powerful attack, but it doesn't' need to be very close in to shoot a ship......BUT
Not sure on the CV version, we need aircraft peeps
I was wondering if maybe it could have a Disruptive SA. STrafing the ship not to cause damage but to cause havoc on decks. something like.....
"Disruptive strafing" - instead of dealing an attack, the ship targeted by this unit loses 1 AA die this turn.
Something like that, but worded better and only useable when in the same tile as the ship |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:03 am |
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Nothing but Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash.
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That would be a cool sort of SA except that Air Defense comes before Air Attack, so any effect would have to be next turn if it is on the ship's AA, and would have to be remembered.
This might be overpowered, but what about something like:
Soften Target (or Disruptive Strafing, Strafing Run, whatever): If this unit scores at least four successes while strafing but does not damage its target, friendly aircraft receive +1 dice to bomb attacks against that target this turn.
OK, so a little wordy too. But at least that would make it have some use after all the little guys it can kill easily are off the table.
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:19 am |
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SOCCEROO FEVER
Posts: 6808
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question where they used in an antishipping role?
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:20 am |
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Posts: 805
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Post subject:
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| swarbs wrote: | | Asbestos wrote: | | Not sure why Expert Strafer would preclude them from having an all the time range 1 gun attack. Expert Strafer really just turns these things into bombers with a very low bomb attack and no ability to benefit from Expert SAs. These are really heavy guns, much more deserving of a range 1 attack value than the .50 cals on the B-25. |
I'm not saying that it would necessarily preclude them from having more than one range one attack, I'm just saying that I think it should.
There's already an SA in the game allowing for range one strafing, it's once per game, why change it?
With one range one attack they're good enough at a low point value as long as they have a useful local strafing ability which Expert Strafer gives them. No need to make awesome units, just as long as they are useful.
The 37mm was larger than the .50 cals, but not larger than the 75mm cannon carried in some B-25 variants.
And isn't a range one attack is already stretching the effective range of these attacks in reality anyway? |
I forgot about the 75mm, I was using the later B-25J for the stats in which the ineffective cannon was replaced with a number of .50s. You make a good case for it being 1/game. Thoughts on points? 5? |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:35 am |
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I would assume at one point or another a ship was attacked by one of these.
swarbs - the general idea is just to give them a purpose other than sinking destroyers and Canberra |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:36 am |
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Posts: 805
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| RAEVSKI wrote: | | question where they used in an antishipping role? |
I saw mention of them attacking gunboats. In this grainy gun cam footage it appears to be shooting at targets in water. Edit: Stupid links not showing up well, just click on 'grainy gun cam footage'.
Because of the low amount of ammunition and slow speed, I wouldn't see this plane disrupting much. Regular fighters, putting out more bullets with more guns, would be more dangerous to crewmen on deck. |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:40 am |
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Posts: 805
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Post subject:
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| Rengokuy wrote: | I would assume at one point or another a ship was attacked by one of these.
swarbs - the general idea is just to give them a purpose other than sinking destroyers and Canberra |
Keep in mind that these planes are in fact, still Stukas. The gun pods are removable. I can see an alternate payload type ability giving them a 1/game Bomb 9 attack. Edit: In which case it should be left as a Dive Bomber probably. |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:44 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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Definitely still divebombers--IIRC, the 87G strafe was usually in a dive like its bomber siblings, just a little shallower. (Easier to hit weaker top-armor that way, at least on tanks and tin-cans.)
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:33 am |
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SOCCEROO FEVER
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4/7/1
Mg 4 (5 is too much)
Bomb?
Expert straffer?
Land based? also remember Stuka operations SA
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:19 am |
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Really? I Thought 5 was pretty decent, same as teh mitchell. (since there are 25 stukas in a squad and less that 5 mitchells in a squad)
No bomb attack, they only had the gun pods.
Expert Strafer makes sense.
Land Based, I dunno. All the stuka needed for CV operations was a tail hook and folding wings.......so, I guess they'd be able to be CV operational...
4/7/1 sounds good, same as the regular stuka....
ummmm points........not many?
Are we not gonna do the Disruptive SA |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:34 am |
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| RAEVSKI wrote: | 4/7/1
Mg 4 (5 is too much)
Bomb?
Expert straffer?
Land based? also remember Stuka operations SA |
Alright, I looked these weapons up on NavWeaps (the BK 37 is basically a Flak M43) and compared them to a US 75mm cannon (went with the 7.62cm DP gun, yes its bigger, but only a little) The 75mm is far more justifiable at range 1, though the 37mms could get out there. But, I think that because the Stuka had two 37mm autocannons whereas the B-25 had a single manual reloading 75mm, the MG 5 is still good.
My thoughts as of now:
4/7/1
MG 5/3
Land Based
Alternate Payload 9 (Maybe 11 since these are really modified 87Ds and the custom card for the D says 11, this represents removing the gun pods and adding the appropriate bombs)
Expert Strafer
Stuka: This unit can base off units with Stuka Operations (that damn SA specifically states 'Ju 87B' and 'Ju 87R2', if we go with this SA it should probably be added to the Ju 87D custom card)
Cost 6? |
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:54 am |
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Posts: 805
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Dangit, just dug up some more about the airframe. It had armor comparable to the Il-2, not sure if we should account for this.
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:20 am |
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Caesar Americanus II Munchkin Wrangler
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So, maybe boost its Armor 1 point.
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:27 am |
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SOCCEROO FEVER
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i will refer to ND here too.
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:35 am |
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This thing was a tank buster that occassionally shot up Allied stuff off-shore. It was definately land based, but if Goering hadn't been a fool, it could've been Navalized. 
I'm not sure its guns could've busted the turrets of most light cruisers, but a flock of these birds could've ruined the day of most MTB's, Destroyers, or Submarines caught on the surface.
I'm in favor of a range 1 Gunnery score, rather than Heavy Strafer. Leave that off, along with Land Based, since Stuka Operations might stretch enough to let 'em aboard the Carriers, anyway. Expert Strafer, for sure. Maybe a Night Owl SA that allows normal operation under Darkness rules. Maybe a new SA based on Rengokuy's idea for a disruptive SA. Kinda radical, but it would make this unit useful. Too radical?
Ju-87G Stuka
Available from January 1943
Cost 8 ?
Speed 14
Gunnery 4/3 ?
No AA
No Bomb
4/7/1 ?
Expert Strafer, Flak Suppressor (New SA) ?
Flak Suppressor - If you have initiative, this unit can make a Strafing attack before your opponent's Air Defense step instead of during your Air Attack step.
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| Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:56 am |
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