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Jeffrey5665

 

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Post subject: Hidden Submarines - WARNING....NOT NOT NOT Playtested yet  Reply with quote   (Liked by:0)  Like this post
First.  Here you are Ziegler (by the way, did you have any relatives who served aboard the USS King (DDG-41) in the mid 80s?), this one's is for you, and since I promised it to ya on Wednesday night, you're getting it before I've had an opportunity to play test it.  So, if anyone out there tries this before me (probably this weekend), please post it on here.

Second.  This one isn't so simple and straightforward as the Aircraft Placement, so pop a cold one, get comfy in your chair, and since I have to be to work in the morning, let's get this over with...

ALTERNATE SUBMARINE RULES

NOTE:  All rules in the "ASW Threat" section of WaS's Rules Update & Clarifications of 17 July 07 remain in effect.

MOVEMENT
Submarine movement is plotted by grid coordinates on a piece of paper hidden from the opposing player(s).  The moves are plotted immediately after the initiative roll (or if you are using my alternate aircraft placement rules, plot the subs at the same time so as to maintain a better game flow.

THE HONESTY FACTOR
Whenever things are done in the blind, there is always a chance of cheating (we've all moved our ships around while playing Battleship at one time or another).  If you trust your opponents (as I do), then you're good to go.  If not, you may want to consider some alternate plan...perhaps a neutral third party or something.  In any case, I digress.

After all the ships have conducted their movement, and aircraft have all been placed on the board, each player reveals whether or not any of his/her submarines may be detected.  If not, play continues as normal.  If so, the other player must begin making detection rolls with all of his/her ASW units (basically destroyers & aircraft).  Submarines with Submerged Shot can shoot at an enemy sub, but cannot detect it, and will therefore require a friendly to do that for them.

DETECTION
  Only units with the ASW ability (the depth charge row) can detect submarines, and only then when they occupy the same square.  Detection rolls are made with a 1d6.  It requires at least a 5 to detect a shallow submarine, and an 8 to detect a deep submarine.  Rolls of 1 are always failures, and rolls of 6 are always successful.

   DETECTION DIE ROLL MODIFIERS
Each of the following provides a +1 to the die roll:
  -  each additional unit with ASW in the square
  -  if an ASW aircraft is in the square, more than 1 aircraft does not add to this
  -  if searching unit has the "Sub Hunter" SA
  -  if the submarine is damaged
There are 2 modifiers which provide a -1 to the roll:
  -  if the submarine did not move during the current round
  -  if the submarine has the SA "Elusive Quarry"

  DETECTION EXAMPLE
2 Isokazes & a Betty share a sector.  All 3 have ASW, so the modifier is +2 (2 additional units in the space).  The Betty is an aircraft, bringing the modifier to +3.  Isokaze has the "Sub Hunter" SA, making the final modifier on this undamaged submarine a +4 unless it is the Betty making the attempt, it does not have "Sub Hunter," so it would only be a +3.

  PROSECUTION
Once detected, a unit attacks as per the standard rules.  If the submarine is not damaged or sunk, the player has the option of remaining shallow or going deep.  If they remain shallow, any remaining ASW units which did not attempt a detection can now make an attack without needing to detect the sub first.  If they do go deep, the remaining units will have to make a detection roll to reacquire the sub.  Players should remember, if a sub that received a -1 bonus for not moving goes deep in this manner, it loses that modifier because changing depth constitutes a move.  If a submarine is detected while deep, attacking units receive a -1 on their attack dice.  There is no "emergency blow."  Subs can crash dive, but not surface, so if a sub is detected while deep, you'd best pray for assistance from Neptune or Davey Jones or both.

  IMPACT ON EXISTING ASW SPECIAL ABILITIES
ASW Pinpointer - extra die is received if a/c is located in square, even if it didn't attack
Ram - Cannot be used against a submarine that is deep (this should be obvious)
Sub Hunter - Units with this SA within 2 squares of a detected sub may move 1 square (but only once each turn)
Wolfpack - Unchanged, but subs that are deep do not count towards this SA
Elusive Quarry, Expert ASW, and Run Silent remain unchanged by these rules

  ADDITIONAL RULES
-  Deep subs cannot make torpedo attacks
-  Deep subs do not count towards the Wolfpack special ability
-  Changing depth, in either direction, requires speed 1, and does count as a sub's movement during that turn.  However, submarines may go deep while being attacked as this would be considered an emergency dive, and would bypass the normal (time consuming) procedures & protocols.  Players cannot state their subs are making emergency dives while they are not under attack
-  Damaged subs cannot go deep
-  Deep subs can only be detected if they were detected in the previous round, or if in the previous round they sank/damaged an enemy vessel (and used their movement in the current round to go deep).  And to answer the question before it can be asked, yes, a 6 is always a success, but a sub that has not been detected or revealed its position is not detectable, and therefore the controlling player is not obligated to admit that he has a sub that can be detected.
-  In the case of multiple ASW units attempting to detect the same sub, if one or more units fail to detect a sub that a follow on unit succeeds against, those earlier units cannot make an attack

  OPTIONAL RULES
-  If a submarine is damaged while deep, roll a 1d6.  On a roll of 2 or less, it is destroyed
-  When a submarine is damaged, roll a 1d6, On a result of 1, the sub has suffered a ruptured fuel bunker, and is now leaving an oil slick on the surface.  It's movement is no longer plotted secretly, and it is moved prior to conducting the initiative roll each round.

  IN CLOSING
And that's it.  I am always happy to answer any questions, and on that note, I'll reveal the use of the word "Prosecution" out of the way....I served as an Operations Specialist in the USN...and when we attempted to lock down a sub (in my case it was never to actually kill), it was called...well, I'll give you one guesss....

Additionally, I made a pair of counters both of 1.5" squares.  One is "Deep" and the other is "Oil Slick"  I will attempt to upload them into this, but if I cannot, and anyone would like them....I can e-mail them to you as jpegs.  I also have an 8" x 5" airfield base split into 4 columns I made (Aborted a/c, Mission Complete Aircraft, Rearming A/C, and Mission Ready A/C) since I found that little field in the corner to be totally inadequate.  I will upload that as well (if I can).  Well, it turns out I can't.  Sorry, but I'm happy to e-mail them to anyone who wants to print them up & use 'em.  

If anybody has the chance to test this out before the weekend, please let me know how it went.  I have altered the rules of every game I've ever played, and I don't think I've ever once had the original concept survive testing.

And for those of you who actually made it alllllll the way to this point....we're probably close enough to be brothers now so don't forget to add me in your will under the title of "Primary Beneficiary."[/url]
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PostThu Aug 06, 2009 2:20 am
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Thodafett

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we will have to try this out, I am a bit confused, but seeing it play out should help me understand better. How often do I play subs anyway. Ole Bubblehead will like them though I am sure.(Ps I left my dang sheets on the top of the counter!!!)
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Jeffrey5665

 

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Yes you did, and I put them under the counter by the bubblegum machine.  And any chance of playing these rules this weekend?
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PostThu Aug 06, 2009 3:39 am
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jfkziegler

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First of all, I like the rules, and they are certainly the best sub rules I have seen.

Second, I don't think I am related to the person you mentioned aboard the USS King.  Ziegler is actually a fairly common name, believe it or not.

Anyhow, a few specific comments:

- I am not sure if the shallow/deep distinction is needed, or if it just creates more confusion.

- I'm not crazy about the fact that your sub needs to reveal where it is in order to allow the opponent to make a detection roll.  I wonder if a system might work where Player 1 says, "You have an ASW unit over one of my subs," and Player 2 rolls a simple detection roll.  If the roll succeeds, the sub is revealed, and if not, Player 2 still doesn't know where it is.

- In your detection example, why do all three units add a modifier?  Shouldn't the unit making the detection attempt not add a modifier?

- Can you make multiple detection attempts against the same sub on the same turn?

- I don't have any more comments right now because I'm pretty tired, but I'll take another look at the rules later.  As I said, though, I think these are a great start, and definitely the best sub rules I have seen.
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Jeffrey5665

 

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Thanks for the adulation....and I will attempt to answer your comments by the number they are listed as...so

1.  I admit, the overriding reason for the shallow/deep distinction is to add a bit of 3D realism to the submariner's world.  When they went deep, they were harder to find & kill.  However, subs are very weak, and the main idea here is an attempt at giving them some survivability.  Plus, I also like the idea of starting all my subs out deep & leaving them there until I can sneak across the board & lay waste to some carriers...which could also cause the enemy to tie up valuable torpedo shooting destroyers & not get anywhere near my heavies with them.  If ThodaFett & I can hook up this weekend & test them out, I think they'll work quite well, but I'll be shocked if I don't alter the detection values some.  They'll either be too easy or difficult, and as always, my aim is to change the game for more interesting play but not to make or break whichever units I'm toying with (in this case subs & ASW units).  Based on your 2nd comment, it sounds like your confusion stems more from a misinterpretation of the detection phase than about going deep or shallow, and so I will end this novel here.

2.  A player (Me) does not have to reveal where my sub is for you to detect.  I merely state you have a chance of detecting one or more of my subs.  At that point, you begin conducting detection with ALL of your ASW units.  Even if you start with the square that could detect me, and you don't, then you will continue attempting to because I won't tell you that you failed.  If you failed to detect me, all you will know in the end is anywhere that you rolled a 6, I didn't have a sub, but you still won't know where I'm at unless you rolled 6 everywhere but where I was.  That's what I was saying about this could get time consuming, because how many destroyers & aircraft with ASW do you typically have deployed on the board?  If you have to roll for all of them when only 1 or a very few at most have a chance....that's the price you pay for secrets, and something I hope to be able to fix with playtesting (if it is in fact a real problem).

3.  In my example, all 3 units get a modifier because the unit attempting to detect has Sub Hunter.  The Betty gives the a/c modifier to both ships & itself, but it doesn't have S.H. and so it's total modifer would be one less than either of the DDs.  All 3 don't get modifiers for being there...the 1st is just there, and then you get +1 for the additional units, in this case there are 2, so that's +2, and the a/c gives you +1 & the DD (which is attempting to detect the sub) has Sub Hunter giving you +1, or a total of 4.  If I had used one Akitsuki & one Isokaze, then the Akit. doesn't have sub hunter & it's modifier would also be a +3, and only the Isokaze would be a +4.

4.  Yes, each ASW unit can make a detection attempt.  Using the above example.  If you start with the Akitsuki & fail, and Betty fails, and then Isokaze succeeds, Isokaze would make an immediate attack (as per the normal rules), and that would be it.  The other 2, having failed to detect, have (for lack of a better expression) already taken their turn, and can't go again.  Now, if you started with Akitsuki & she succeeded, she would attack, and then things start changing.  I can't go deep if I was damaged, and clearly I'm going far too deep if I was sunk, but if you missed, I have the choice of staying up (hoping to get a torpedo shot in) or going down (conceding any chance of attack but hopefully surviving to fight on).  If I stay up, the remaining 2 units do NOT need to detect me, Akitsuki has already detected me...you simply pick one & attack, and I have to make the same choice again.  If I do go deep, the remaining units again need to detect me, and we basically start the whole process over again.

Areas I expect problems with this are -
1.  The detection values will probably need to be raised, but may go down.
2.  The number of rolls players will be making attempting to detect subs...when I play this, I will defintely be looking for some means of reducing that (and thus speeding up the game play to keep it both fun & interesting).  Your idea of simply stating the possibility of detection & a single die roll may end up being how it is, but I hope not.  In the Navy, we practiced ASW all the time.  AAW is like a video game.  Missles flying & reaction times are nil.  ASW is more cat & mouse, cloak & dagger, and the reason for the multiple ship/aircraft modifiers is because the more units involved in the hunt, the odds of finding the sub go significantly up.  When I play, I'll be looking for a blend between my method & yours.  

In the meantime, I do appreciate your vote of confidence, and I believe I am on the right track with this.  Now it's just a matter of smoothing out the surface so we can race it at top speed...so to speak.

The Ziegler I knew was a West German (I guess that term is defunct now) who married an American.  He was an E-9 in the German Navy & enlisted as an E-8 in the USN.  Overall he was a good boss, but eccentric.  He'd chew you out for something you had no part of one moment, and then come back 60 seconds later & praise you for something else you had nothing to do with.  Either way, you quickly learned to say Yes/Thank You Senior Chief.  I just thought with you living so close to the Norfolk area (where he retired), just maybe, but I think we'll all get over it.
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PostThu Aug 06, 2009 5:13 am
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Greyh Seer

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I think this is a great start on a ruleset.  Sub rules are always very hard due to the fact that any system that really simulates historical deployment and movement of subs usually means a lot of paperwork or a moderator in this game...I dream of a simple, effective ruleset...and this is one of the better ones I have seen.

Please, once you playtest it, post your results!  I'd love to see how they actually work!
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PostSun Aug 09, 2009 11:40 am
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Tincancaptain

 
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Has anyone played Battle stations Pacific? If you have the way they do subs in that game can be modified for W@S.

1. All submerged subs can only be detected by ASW units.
2. An ASW unit detects subs in any sector it 'Harasses' so most surface ASW can detect subs out to range 1 while Air ASW can only detect subs I a sector that their in.
3.An ASW unit with sub hunter can detect subs out to range 2.
4.A sub may 'go deep' and is undetectable but cannot attack while it is deep.
5.A sub that has 'gone deep' takes one point of damage for every extra turn(past the first) that it remains deep.

What do you think.
PostSun Aug 09, 2009 12:19 pm
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Tincancaptain wrote:
Has anyone played Battle stations Pacific? If you have the way they do subs in that game can be modified for W@S.

1. All submerged subs can only be detected by ASW units.
2. An ASW unit detects subs in any sector it 'Harasses' so most surface ASW can detect subs out to range 1 while Air ASW can only detect subs I a sector that their in.
3.An ASW unit with sub hunter can detect subs out to range 2.
4.A sub may 'go deep' and is undetectable but cannot attack while it is deep.
5.A sub that has 'gone deep' takes one point of damage for every extra turn(past the first) that it remains deep.

What do you think.


Those look pretty good. Nice and basic - KISS rules. What about how you treat a sub that fired in the last turn? Would aircraft be able to hone in on the target?
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PostSun Aug 09, 2009 7:07 pm
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The_lucky_Y

 

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would remove the running deep get one damage for subs because they had a drawback for running deep already in attack prohibition and those hull1 subs cannot profit from running deep either
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PostSun Aug 09, 2009 8:39 pm
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lotharlutjens

 

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We have been using "Deep" rules for Subs for over 2 years now at SETTS, When I first joined this forum about a year ago the very first thread I posted was "Subs going Deep". Boy was I shot down fast. Cries of subs are too powerful already rained sown upon me. I say good show on these sub rules, around the SETTS clubhouse we've often talked about plotting Sub moves, Hell we've even talked about plotting all moves but as we typically play large multi-player games and we've hesitated from fear it would slow the game down too much. I'll trot these rules out in front of the guys and see what they think.

I think you have some good ideas here.
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PostSun Aug 09, 2009 9:41 pm
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Jeffrey5665

 

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Greyh Seer wrote:
I think this is a great start on a ruleset.  Sub rules are always very hard due to the fact that any system that really simulates historical deployment and movement of subs usually means a lot of paperwork or a moderator in this game...I dream of a simple, effective ruleset...and this is one of the better ones I have seen.

Please, once you playtest it, post your results!  I'd love to see how they actually work!


ThodaFett & I had a chance to play these rules a couple days ago.  We also used my aircraft placement rules as well.  Sadly though, we only used 100 pt fleets & the ensuing battle did not provide for suitable testing.  

However, I did discover one unexpected (why I don't know) glitch.  The rules say when a sub is detected, the unit attacks it immediately.  The detection takes place right after aircraft placement & before anti-aircraft fire...in other words, waaaay out of sequence.  So, I will be looking into that on Monday afternoon when Thoda & I go at it again, this time with larger fleets.  And I will be sure to post the results on here tomorrow night (late).
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PostMon Aug 10, 2009 4:02 am
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Actually, better still would be if we could get something like a sectional version of a Star Trek 3D-chess board, with each sector having 3 or 4  (marked with *) or trans-blue miniature tables stacked over the tabletop.

4*: high-level bombers (optional, just a reminder of the HL Bomber SA)
3*: air, squalls
2: surface, islands
1: shallow subs, shoals
T: deep subs (tabletop)

Heck, stack another "table" below and glue thin-steel bases to your ships/subs, and you could use magnets on sticks to move 'em more like on a real WWII headquarters plotting table!
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PostMon Aug 10, 2009 4:22 am
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defender390 wrote:
Tincancaptain wrote:
Has anyone played Battle stations Pacific? If you have the way they do subs in that game can be modified for W@S.

1. All submerged subs can only be detected by ASW units.
2. An ASW unit detects subs in any sector it 'Harasses' so most surface ASW can detect subs out to range 1 while Air ASW can only detect subs I a sector that their in.
3.An ASW unit with sub hunter can detect subs out to range 2.
4.A sub may 'go deep' and is undetectable but cannot attack while it is deep.
5.A sub that has 'gone deep' takes one point of damage for every extra turn(past the first) that it remains deep.

What do you think.

Those look pretty good. Nice and basic - KISS rules. What about how you treat a sub that fired in the last turn? Would aircraft be able to hone in on the target?


A sub that makes a torpedo attack revels it's position for that turn ASW units within range may attempt to hunt the sub in the next turn.

Also I would like to add that going deep counts as the subs movement for that turn.

The_lucky_Y wrote:
would remove the running deep get one damage for subs because they had a drawback for running deep already in attack prohibition and those hull1 subs cannot profit from running deep either


First, a sub can go deep for one whole turn with no ill effects, but to prevent problems like a player staying deep and moving undetected to within striking distance of a unprotected vulnerable target like a carrier it cannot remain deep for consecutive turns with out paying a price.
Second, it simulates the effect the stresses the sub experiences while hovering near crush depth.
PostMon Aug 10, 2009 5:15 am
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Jeffrey5665

 

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First, a sub can go deep for one whole turn with no ill effects, but to prevent problems like a player staying deep and moving undetected to within striking distance of a unprotected vulnerable target like a carrier it cannot remain deep for consecutive turns with out paying a price.
Second, it simulates the effect the stresses the sub experiences while hovering near crush depth.


Sorry guys, this whole quoting bit is getting the best of me...I just wanted to respond to what I've put in bold above this.  

Wouldn't it be easier just to say there is some method of detecting subs while their deep?  The whole idea of subs is that they can approach through stealth & then destroy their target(s) before the enemy has any idea they're even there.

Listed crush depths are well above what actually is required for a boat to get crushed.  I've never heard or read of any sub (at least not since the start of WWI) that was deactivated due to strucural weakness caused by too much time in the depths.

For me, the whole idea for the alternate rules is to attmept to make it a little more realistic while also requiring players to give movements a little more thought.  Would a sub really shoot at a destroyer simply because it was the only target within range?  Of course not, they'd attempt to slip by and hit something worth talking about.  Unless, of course, they were under orders to do so (as CINCPAC did in WWII for a few months).
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PostMon Aug 10, 2009 7:40 am
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Tincancaptain

 
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To put it simply the reason I wanted to use this rule variant is simplicity, as it does not require any dice rolling for spot checks that would lag the game. Unfortunately there is nothing that I can conceive of to allow ASW units to detect 'deep' subs without either breaking the system and making the process of going deep pointless or requiring some sort of spot roll.
PostMon Aug 10, 2009 8:12 am
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Thodafett

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Other than a lot more paperwork, I liked what we played though like jeff pointed out it needs more playtesting and maybe a bit more tinkering as certain situations and circumstances present themselves. You have to trust your opponent, which with Jeff goes without question, but in a more tournament like setting this could be tough and require a third person to insure fair play. On the plus side you really have to pay more attention to detail, which I personally enjoy. Maybe today we can throw the admiral cards in as well just to get things all crazy!!!
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Jeffrey5665

 

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Thodafett & I were able to playtest these rules with 200 pt fleets Monday afternoon.  They worked out to some extent, but overall, I don't think they're really adequate for standard game play.  They simply require too much to keep track of.  For scenario use, I think they would be excellent, but you can't really afford to send 2 or 3 destroyers & a couple of aircraft to hunt down a sub while your fleet is desperately in need of those additional assets.  Also, I was able to make 1 attack on a sub, and that was it.  So Ziegler, it's back to the drawing board for standard game rules.

However, today, Thoda's aircraft (using my a/c placement rules) just ruled the waves.  He sank Illustrious and Gloire with Vals, and I think a Val or Kate rid me of my Canberra as well, plus a sub put 2 torpedoes into my Fencer & sent her to the bottom, & to top it all off, Akagi went off on my Swordfish like bad sushi....in the 1st turn no less.

Yes, I managed to get several thousand allied sailors & airmen killed today, and many of those who survived are probably well on their way to being shark excrement, but don't worry, I have survived to fight another day.

And while I am waiting for that day, I am going to attempt to revamp the submarine rules into something a little more in line with that age old adage (of which I was recently reminded of by Defender390) - KISS.

Finally, I feel comfortable speaking for both Thodafett & myself when I say we are completely sold on the aircraft placement rules.  Today they were flawless.  One sided results were caused by low AA, poor aircraft, and some truly putrid dice... In any case, I highly recommend you try them out.  And if anyone wants, I've made up sheets for plotting your aircraft, as well as squadron commander names, & what results each mission had... I love keeping stats for the purposes of campaigns.
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PostTue Aug 11, 2009 6:56 am
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The_lucky_Y

 

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we general used a more simple sub rule set

1. all subs are visible on the map but can only be attacked if an ASW search was successful or the sub reveals its positioon while firing torpedos

2. each unit with an ASW value can made an ASW search roll against a local
submarine instead of an normal attack

3. ASW search roll uses the current ASW dice value of that unit and is successful if the roll contains at least one 6.

4. place a glassstone or another kind of marker next to the detected sub to keep track taht is successfully detected or reveal its position due to own fire

5. only ASW search rolls harass undetected subs

6. already detected subs can be harrassed normally
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PostTue Aug 11, 2009 7:25 am
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Thodafett

 IJN attrition is the name of the game

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I had a great time playing IJN for the 200 point match we had today to playtest the Sub rules and further test out the Aircraft placement rules. The Gameplay was a bit slow like Jeff said in regards to the sub's rules. I too think they are great for scenarios, and convoy runs, were you pretty much are using DD, DE, and aircraft to protect your convoy anyway. It was a disaster for Jeff to have to use so much of his surface fleet to try and track my subs. While I have the most horrible luck rolling "6s" for torpedos, the few torpedo attacks that hit really made their impact felt today.

His ruleset for the aircraft placement is awesome, and I enjoy them and am happy to offically adopt them into our game. I got really lucky on some dice rolls, and was pretty spot on for finding his ships most of the time. Because of my early success he was being forced to be more aggresive early with his surface fleet, which kinda narrowed his options for ship movement. I really like the depth these rules add to the game. Great Job Jeff
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PostTue Aug 11, 2009 11:53 pm
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Run Silent

 ____ BT2 Smith ____ _USS Ranger CV-61 _ USS Mount Vernon LSD-39


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Some what  like what we use  we ll give this a few test run and report back.


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PostWed Aug 26, 2009 5:17 pm
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